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Tokyo Marui M870 Tactical Gas Tri-shot Shotgun- picture, text and video review


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Afternoon guys.   This morning I was very lucky to receive my brand spanking new Tokyo Marui Remington M870 Tactical, from the good folks over at Redwolf UK.   This is a text/ video review for now

Chopped the barrel and added an ATI heat shield- quite happy with the result!          

TM issues a product recall?   In other news, pigs spotted flying over Hampshire, Peter Mandelson is a force for good, David Cameron gets on his bike, Nick Clegg tells the truth and the Ministry of D

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Has anyone had tank deformation that has been using 134a exclusively ?

 

Or, I guess, the inverse question, what have you been using that are seeing the deformations?

 

Either way, TM products only support 134a as far as I know so if you use anything else you are SOL. :o

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be sure to tune into my new website www.lame.com 

 

Can't a believe the tank can only support 134 (has this been confirmed by anyone?). Lets pray that someone else makes a reinforced tank real soon. Screw buying another marui one till this is solved. At least the winter is coming and I have to put away my gas guns anyway

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be sure to tune into my new website www.lame.com 

 

Can't a believe the tank can only support 134 (has this been confirmed by anyone?). Lets pray that someone else makes a reinforced tank real soon. Screw buying another marui one till this is solved. At least the winter is coming and I have to put away my gas guns anyway

 

You should believe it.

 

Japan has different laws, as Wingmann has demonstrated, i've order once or twice from Japan in the past, but that was probably 5-6yrs ago.

One was a tanaka works pistol, magazine with valves and all was assembled.

But with this new postal rule, will that means all gas tanks/magazines will have the same treatment?  

 

And getting back to the point, all airsoft guns in Japan have to run on HFC134a, it has been a law for as long as i can remember, i would not even try to run my Tanaka on green gas. 

 

But Tokyo Marui? Maruzen? They weren't legally required to be built for green gas, but they were over specced, that they could.

 

So in conclusion, if the tank is heavily deform, you should try and get it replaced. But the manual does say use HFC134a and not above a temperature of 40C. 

 

You probably can't deny the green gas, but you could probably claim the second, I don't see why you can;t try and get a replacement from Ehobby.

 

But i've just had a look at my own tank and the result ain't good, it's deformed as well, it has expanded by 1-1.5mm on both sides, stemming from the middle pin, it certainly not as bad as yours but its certainly reproducible.  

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And getting back to the point, all airsoft guns in Japan have to run on HFC134a, it has been a law for as long as i can remember, i would not even try to run my Tanaka on green gas. 

 

Gotta say my Tanakas have taken Green Gas just fine - it took a lot of courage (or stupidity..) to fill them with Green but  they are holding fine, even the little J Frame, and gives a lot more pop when fired. Had them filled with Green for about 2 weeks now, no leaking etc. 

 

In regard to retailers and refunds, I can't imagine them being very helpful unless you only used 134a. I'm surprised of deformation with Abbey Ultra ect. though, never had a magazine leak or any issues with it, not too powerful so the gas tank must be pretty structurally weak.

Edited by GlockworkOrange
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One of my two tanks has buldged a little too, however that's the one I have taken apart to measure the internal volume by filling it with water, so I'm not 100% sure whether it bulged a little when I struck the pin back into place.. still holding the charge for some reason... slightly dodgy, guess maybe this is another reason for me to do the AR tube tank... lol 

 
Anyway, thread jack. 
 

 Hard-anodized 7075 T6 please, cost be damned.

 

IMG-1292.jpg

Edited by blobface
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They obviously didn't test them before stating that .

They do work on green gas but for how long would be a better statement .

 

I think when it comes to any claims no one outside of apan will have a foot to stand on legally

Also it states in the manual 134 a with the 40c temp restriction. .

Be interesting to see if any 134 gas use problems arise .

Edited by Baddbaz
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RedWolf specs can't be trusted. According to them most TM guns are fine to run on Green... :o

Let's not go through the whole official vs. unofficial propellant support for TMs. Bottom line is TM specs say 134a and if you use anything else it's your problem.

I guess if you bought a gun from them and followed their recommendations and ran intro problems you could get warranty repairs and support from them.

Edited by NonEx
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The 870 runs brilliantly on 134/ 144 a , from what I have seen , why has everyone got a huge desire to run stronger gases . The mp7 had problems , the 57 , and now this gun ? Yet all work well on 144a .

Im using green gas in both my TM MP7 and PX4 and hadn't have any problems. Truth is its really hard to get 134/144 gas here(at least none of local shops have any).

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You should believe it.

 

Japan has different laws, as Wingmann has demonstrated, i've order once or twice from Japan in the past, but that was probably 5-6yrs ago.

One was a tanaka works pistol, magazine with valves and all was assembled.

But with this new postal rule, will that means all gas tanks/magazines will have the same treatment?  

 

And getting back to the point, all airsoft guns in Japan have to run on HFC134a, it has been a law for as long as i can remember, i would not even try to run my Tanaka on green gas. 

 

But Tokyo Marui? Maruzen? They weren't legally required to be built for green gas, but they were over specced, that they could.

 

So in conclusion, if the tank is heavily deform, you should try and get it replaced. But the manual does say use HFC134a and not above a temperature of 40C. 

 

You probably can't deny the green gas, but you could probably claim the second, I don't see why you can;t try and get a replacement from Ehobby.

 

But i've just had a look at my own tank and the result ain't good, it's deformed as well, it has expanded by 1-1.5mm on both sides, stemming from the middle pin, it certainly not as bad as yours but its certainly reproducible.  

 

Although designing and speccing a gun for a certain pressure is fine, load bearing parts, especially ones containing pressurised gas (which is pretty dangerous), should have a good margin of safety. Ideally at least a factor of two. It's not really safe if pressures just slightly above the design pressure cause the tank to physically deform. What about 134 on a really hot day? Or kept in a car in direct sunlight? That's not a safe design.

 

The 870 runs brilliantly on 134/ 144 a , from what I have seen , why has everyone got a huge desire to run stronger gases . The mp7 had problems , the 57 , and now this gun ? Yet all work well on 144a .

 

134/144 are super expensive, especially if you use your gas guns regularly. The main reason I use propane is because it's the only gas I can afford to use in any quantity. It's more easily available.

Edited by Stuey
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This is the trouble with imported goods . A lot of dangerous sub standard products end up on our shores and a lot do not conform to uk safety standards . If one of these tanks should ( god forbid ) cause injury to someone I can see a retailer being taken to the cleaners for selling unsafe goods

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Stuey 

What about 134 on a really hot day? Or kept in a car in direct sunlight? That's not a safe design.

 

 

 

Manuals specifies not to use their guns over 40C and also keeping pressurized gas containters in a car in direct sunlight is downright stupid, irregardless of safety rating of the container.

 

If they specify it is fine with 134a, and it works with that under normal conditions as specified in the operating instructions, then it is within their calculated safety ratings.

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Although designing and speccing a gun for a certain pressure is fine, load bearing parts, especially ones containing pressurised gas (which is pretty dangerous), should have a good margin of safety. Ideally at least a factor of two. It's not really safe if pressures just slightly above the design pressure cause the tank to physically deform. What about 134 on a really hot day? Or kept in a car in direct sunlight? That's not a safe design.

 

 

134/144 are super expensive, especially if you use your gas guns regularly. The main reason I use propane is because it's the only gas I can afford to use in any quantity. It's more easily available.

 

You are certainly right, however it's not coincidence that Japan uses it's own standards, from paper size all the way down to gas tanks.

 

By their standards, these tanks are within safety margins to HFC134a gas usage.

 

But it's no coincidence that in the rest of Asia the commonly used engineering standards are BSI or DIN which are up to international scrutiny and are typically over specified (Something about British and German mentality that things are going to be abused so might as well factor it in!)

No one uses JIS in this region outside of Japan, in fact not even the Japanese companies based here, they use DSI/DIN like everyone else.*

 

Anyway, as the commenter above mention, best to run with HFC134a gas from now on, luckily here in HK i can find them quite easy and cheaply.

My condolences to everyone else and let us all wait for the G&P conversion kits, which we can trust to use BSI standards since they are a HK based company. But i do hope they do a pistol grip tank like a Maruzen, so that they give us the option to attach our own stock type.

 

If not, i'm ripping off my maruzen m1100 pistol grip tank and install it myself!  :D  :rolleyes: 

 

 

 

*Design Engineer by profession/Personal Exp.

 

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144 a is easily available in the uk , iit may cost a bit more than propane but I just factor it in as normal running costs for a gun the same way I do with decent quality bbs . Repair costs for propane use can quite easily outstrip any savings made in the first place with Airsoft guns .

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all airsoft guns in Japan have to run on HFC134a, it has been a law for as long as i can remember

 

It's not 'the law', it's just really, really hard to get propane in Japan. I'm not quite sure why, but for some reason you just can't buy it unless you have a demonstrable need for it (mostly in agriculture, I think?) so hardly any guns use it. In terms of whether or not it's against Marui's rules to use propane, that's quite possible - but it's not against the law.

 

Manuals specifies not to use their guns over 40C [...] If they specify it is fine with 134a, and it works with that under normal conditions as specified in the operating instructions, then it is within their calculated safety ratings.

 

BeserkDS' tank ballooned at the 134A equivalent of just 35°C, which isn't exactly the surface temperature of the sun. These tanks are clearly not built with an adequate margin of safety or performance; I could leave a full can of any airsoft gas you care to mention in probably 150% of that temperature and it wouldn't deform. People have been able to use propane in most recent Marui guns without issue (Five seveN and MP7 being the major exceptions, the latter being solved fairly soon after release) so it's not surprising that a lot of people, me included, regard this as a retrograde step. I'll do some sums and see if I can work out the temperature equivalents of propane and tetrafluoroethane so we know what temperature it's safe to use propane up to. There's no point, after all, in spending extra to use 134A or 144A when it's cold outside.

Edited by PureSilver
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It's not 'the law', it's just really, really hard to get propane in Japan. I'm not quite sure why, but for some reason you just can't buy it unless you have a demonstrable need for it (mostly in agriculture, I think?) so hardly any guns use it. In terms of whether or not it's against Marui's rules to use propane, that's quite possible - but it's not against the law.

 

 

BeserkDS' tank ballooned at the 134A equivalent of just 35°C, which isn't exactly the surface temperature of the sun. These tanks are clearly not built with an adequate margin of safety or performance; I could leave a full can of any airsoft gas you care to mention in probably 150% of that temperature and it wouldn't deform. People have been able to use propane in most recent Marui guns without issue (Five seveN and MP7 being the major exceptions, the latter being solved fairly soon after release) so it's not surprising that a lot of people, me included, regard this as a retrograde step. I'll do some sums and see if I can work out the temperature equivalents of propane and tetrafluoroethane so we know what temperature it's safe to use propane up to. There's no point, after all, in spending extra to use 134A or 144A when it's cold outside.

 

Well, i learnt something new everyday.  Thanks for the info! 

 

I'm not sure you can compare a general pattern gas cannister with design specification to comply with international transportation law and usage with the issue at hand, especially when you are comparing this to a gas tank that was designed for essentially a recreational replicate toy gun.

 

But i agree, the previous models of Tokyo Marui gas products have been quite accommodating to the use of green gas, despite the obvious home market focus that Tokyo Marui modus operandi.

 

I have to wonder if it's due to factory production side or a deliberate in house decision, i.e. cost cutting, change of management, etc etc.

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Propane is so cheap, probably yes.

 

And I know we're not just talking about the M870 but it, being NBB, shouldn't need any upgrades for propane (the exploding tanks notwithstanding). And the TM 1911, Hi-capa, 226, M9, Deagle and plenty of others are very accommodating of propane completely stock. No metal slide required (they just reduce performance).

Edited by Stuey
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