UKARA Development

[QQexDERA]

I for one would be very interested to find out whether he approached the ACPO as a Frank from Fire Support or Frank, chairman of UKARA. Sadly, however, as the ACPO is actually a limited company (seriously!) they would just tell an FoI request to *fruitcage* off.

[Smoke]

I can sort of see Franks point. It must be very frustrating to have been involved in the VCRB/VCRA... Put the effort in to make UKARA work etc... Only to see a complete lack of enforcement from the powers that be.

 

However I sincerely wish he'd taken the "No one cares" hint, and wound his neck in.

 

Hey ho... We haven't had a good Airsoft am banz? Scare in ages...

[northernairsofter]

Pure silver , are you some sort of Lawyer? thats the kind of text analysis we need around here !

 

Also , we probably should have seen this coming back before summer when Firesupport were putting a monopoly on ICS guns. The thoughts were " first ICS , then THE WORLD !"

[justaworkerbb]

From: Graham McLellan

Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 4:00 PM

To: admin@ukara.org.uk

Subject: Home Office discussions

Dear UKARA retailers,

 

An email about possible recommendations in regards to changes in the way the VCR Act and Airsoft trade should be regulated by the Government via contact with the Home Office may have been sent to you.

 

UKARA as an Association has made no representation to the Home Office about any of these matters, these discussions have taken place by Frank Bothamley on his own behalf representing himself, or possibly Fire Support.

 

These recommendations proposed by Frank in reality would be changing the whole structure of the Airsoft retail industry and the way it works, with a significant knock on effect on how players and game sites work. 

We consider any UKARA recommendation or plans could only be made with full consultation and backing of the majority of the current retailer members, if the committee agreed to merits of such proposals.

 

It is this kind of contact that may have caused ACPO and Trading Standards to become so interested in the matter in the first place.

 

At the moment the UKARA system working within the VCR Act regulations gives the appearance to the majority of being adequate, however imperfectly, we get very few letters of complaint, most are of praise of how well we run things. There may be problems and rogue traders but most of the time business carries on normally.

 

We ( the majority of the committee ) would rather see what the Home Office is going to propose ( if anything ) rather than offering suggestions which may be much more radical that they would ever come up with themselves, it is hardly a priority for them.

 

UKARA Admin.

 

 

 

From: Firesupport New

Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 12:54 PM

To: Firesupport

Subject: ACPO admits VCR is uneforceable - REPLIES REQUIRED - Please read.

 

Hi All

Please for now keep this confidential within the Airsoft retailers.

 

For the last 12 months I have been speaking to FELWEG the Firearms section of ACPO (The Association of Chief Police Officers), as high as you can get in Police Firearms area.

This is because I have been frustrated by not being able to help out UKARA members who report breaches of the VCR Act or report people exploiting loop holes. I get evidence and then noone in power seems to want to do anything. Also RFDs cause problems by selling RIFs to anyone over 18 based on a perceived power level rather than the evidence from the Forensic Science Service report. ACPO has been trying to find someone in Trading standards to enforce the VCR Bill because they do not think it is a Police remit.

 

As I have said to them both neither group want to take responsibility for enforcing the law as they always say please report to the other group.

 

In the last month ACPO have finally admitted in writing after trying to get Trading standards involved that they believe that the VCR Act as far as RIFs are concerned is not enforceable.

They emailed this information to the Home Office and copied to me.

The Home Office are now looking into what can now be done to make changes to make the law enforceable and simpler.

 

There hopefully will now be a consultation process (this may take a while, it took 2 years to sort out the VCR Act) involving interested parties as what can be done now.

I have asked to be involved in this process.

I spoke to the Home Office yesterday and they have asked for suggestions.

They are going to do something to change the situation, so better we are involved at the start in a positive way, than to just be faced with another botched solution.

My suggestion to you is that if changed we need to simplify the process whilst making it easier to sell guns.

 

My thoughts are:

As a good percentage of UKARA Airsoft shops are already RFD Air weapon retailers and if not then it is reasonably easy to become one. (Firesupport is not an RFD Airweapon registered shop but all we would have to do would be apply and all that is required is a few simple changes)

 

The Home Office in the past have said that they would not support the sole use of any one checking system such as UKARA as this would create a cartel type environment which they could not condone.

 

My suggestion to get rid of any loop holes, interpretations and just ignorance of law and make it easier to enforce, as follows :-

 

Should accepted (big should) it would mean the end of UKARA, the end of need for checking players, no more annual fees and be able to sell to anyone over 18. Or they make take on board some or none of what we suggest.

 

Suggestion:-

All RIFs should be sold through Air weapon RFDs, (at least 50% of UKARA retailers are already RFDs)

RIFs to be sold to 18 and over only

Only Air weapon RFDs should be allowed to import RIFs

No restrictions on posting RIFs.

2nd hand sales only through Air weapon RFD monitored resources.

Please can you reply back by end of November 2013 with your agreement to my suggestion or alterations or alternate suggestions so that I can collate and resend out to members for comment.

Should I get no reply from you then I can only assume you don't care which system is taken forward or we end up with.

Thanks

Frank

[Erab]

Frank, you sir, are a bell end. 

[justaworkerbb]

As someone who works for a retailer, the founders of UKARA control it and really the industry. If Frank wants it, he can easily manipulate the situation to get his idea to be the recommendation. He makes it clear that if you are not involved or don;t get involved then you get what you want. Considering they control UKARA and everyone else just pays and have no vote, the outcome is already decided. My boss says he pays for player checks, but if they are to represent him then how come he has never voted and is not allowed to vote in UKARA. But, what does a tech know!

[Smoke]

I would have thought any issues within UKARA, are the business of UKARA Retailers, and no one else.

 

It's a Retailers Organisation. Set up by Retailers, for Retailers. Why are people so shocked that they (be it Frank on his own, or UKARA as a group) are lobbying for more control over the industry that they make their living from??

 

Many of the wider issues that have an impact on players, are conveniently dealt with by UKARA... But at the end of the day, even your UKARA number, is a misnomer for your Site Membership number. It's there to protect a retailer, nothing more.

 

I fail to see what, if any, consultation UKARA needs to hold with players, no matter how much internet whinging is kicking off.

 

Why do these guys control so much of the industry? Because they got off their arses and took the initiative. Everyone needs to recognise that there was and is, nothing stopping them starting/creating an alternative - other than the hard work involved (and it's far easier to snipe online via a keyboard).

 

Don't misunderstand... I'd much rather Frank hadn't poked the ACPO in the eye quite so much - and in fairness it could appear it's all due to ego, and not much else... But the froth is getting silly.

 

Unless you're a retailer... UKARA is nothing to do with you.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

I would have thought any issues within UKARA, are the business of UKARA Retailers, and no one else.

It's a Retailers Organisation. Set up by Retailers, for Retailers. Why are people so shocked that they (be it Frank on his own, or UKARA as a group) are lobbying for more control over the industry that they make their living from??

Many of the wider issues that have an impact on players, are conveniently dealt with by UKARA... But at the end of the day, even your UKARA number, is a misnomer for your Site Membership number. It's there to protect a retailer, nothing more.

I fail to see what, if any, consultation UKARA needs to hold with players, no matter how much internet whinging is kicking off.

Why do these guys control so much of the industry? Because they got off their arses and took the initiative. Everyone needs to recognise that there was and is, nothing stopping them starting/creating an alternative - other than the hard work involved (and it's far easier to snipe online via a keyboard).

Don't misunderstand... I'd much rather Frank hadn't poked the ACPO in the eye quite so much - and in fairness it could appear it's all due to ego, and not much else... But the froth is getting silly.

Unless you're a retailer... UKARA is nothing to do with you.

Rubbish.

 

I'm not alone in not caring if my chosen airsoft supplier is a RFD or not, as long as I can buy what I want, however, you seem to ignore that these suggestions go way beyond the remit of what a retailer should concern itself with. What the Frak does a retailer have to do with my choice to sell my rifle on the second hand market, and why shouldn't I froth at being told by retailers that I can no longer import?!?

 

Look what happened to Microsoft when they tried to control / stop the lending or selling of second hand games for the Xbox one!!!

 

The reason why people are angry is because these retailers are clearly over stepping the mark.

[Smoke]

Where does it say what a Retailer should and shouldn't involve itself in?

 

Again, please don't think I'm condoning what's happened. It's potentially a big PITA if and when the HO decide to deal with this.

 

It has been explained that UKARA considers itself duty bound to report issues and deliberate avoidance of the VCRA. Whether I agree with that is irrelevant to the fact that they believe it.

 

In the process of this, Frank has found problems with anyone actually caring that these problems exist. With the usual "not my job" responses from the 2 agencies involved. Me? I'd have left it there, but he didn't (whatever his intentions), and now the powers that be need to fix the SNAFU.

 

What's then happened is an email of suggestions has been sent out to UKARA members, asking for feedback.

 

I don't care either if a retailer is RFD or not... I'm also (as a player) very wary of this "definition of an Airsoft gun" mentioned. Especially if power and fps is quietly tacked onto things. This has me far more concerned than how Retailers conduct their business.

 

Either way, as players, there is this tendency to think UKARA represents us in anyway... Which it doesn't. That's what I was trying to get at .

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Yes, but that's the point, a retailer is there to serve the customers needs, period. I don't want Tesco telling me what loaf of bread I should buy, how to eat it, and then which direction I should wipe my *albartroth* once the loaf comes out the other end...a free market should encourage choice and fair competition. Many of the suggestions attempt to restrict that competition and remove choice.

 

As a customer, I have a duty to reign in any retailer that goes beyond its remit, that's why I cited the Microsoft debacle. I'm not naive enough to NOT realise that UKARA was created to protect the interests of those who made their living through the sales of airsoft items, however, like any organisation given to much control / power, it seems that greed always follows.

[Smoke]

Really? I would have thought a Retailer is there to provide a livelihood for it's owners and staff? Granted, those that do well at serving their customers needs tend to thrive over those that don't, but that there is your market forces etc.

 

Maybe we attribute the qualities found within the game - Honesty, fair play etc to the businesses involved in supporting our hobby? Strikes me as naive to do so.

[Scotty H]

Erm sorry I have to call bull on that. Retailers exist to provide a product or service to a consumer. That is what it means.

[Smoke]

Ah right... Profit is just a convenient byproduct.

 

I'm not trying to be Mr. Cynical Businesshead. As of course, within our bubble, the vast majority of Retailers and their staff will be players, or former players with a love for the game. But they are looking at their bottom line at the end of the day... Or at least their Bank Manager is!

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Smoke, you're losing track of your original point. You challenged the idea that we as players should be concerning ourselves with the inner workings of UKARA, because UKARA is a retailers association and is there to protect the interests of retailers and not players.

 

No one is suggesting that Fire Support (FS) et al. should not protect their business interests, and try their best to be profitable. However, even a retail organisation has to understand that its members are dependant on the consumer....the market! If we were simply talking about inner UKARA workings that affected retailers operations but left the choices and freedoms of the consumer base alone, your point would be reasonable.....however, your argument is flawed because the ideals being pushed by said retailer association threaten much more than retail operations....they now seek to control my choice and purchasing patterns.

 

This is why we, as consumers, have a RIGHT to respond and either agree or disagree. If I sit in a room across from you and slap myself across the face, that's my business, if I cross the room and slap you, I invite a response from you.....is that a fair statement?

[Fluffy Bunny]

Indeed, profit is just a convenient by-product.

 

For if you do not have a service or commodity that someone is wishing to use or purchase, you will have no profit.

[blobface]

I guess you are right, we shouldn't sit around and snipe online alone, we should take initiative and do something about the situation, starting from spreading the word to boycott Firesupport as much as we can, afterall, if his shop shuts down from lack of business, he'd be in a strangely awkward position if he wants to stay in a retailer organisation.. 

[Smoke]

Yeah... I think I'm guilty of failing to get what I'm trying to say across in a forum format, and my thoughts tend to be far from linear!

 

On a personal level, I don't like what's happened. I think it was daft to poke the hornets nest. But then I'm just a player who does his thing, and I'm confident that whatever gets done, wont kill airsoft (call me an optimist or whatever... To be honest I just think it's too big now in the UK to kill off). I can see from their statement, that the head honchos at UKARA felt they had to raise a legitimate issue to the authorities regarding non compliance. The result of which is the HO are now potentially looking to clear things up. I've no doubt when this happens UKARA will be one of several groups showing an interest (like last time).

 

I think it's a bit of a shame Frank didn't advertise this issue to the wider community as and when it was happening. But then considering the logistics of doing so, and including everyone, would be a nightmare... I can't blame him. He's let his organisation know (albeit 12 months down the line), and someone leaked that communication. Nothing has actually gone to the HO, right?

 

Like any negotiation process... Your first draft is going to be everything you could want, and plus a bit, isn't it? Same as your first asking price leaves wiggle room...?

 

The idea of blocking imports is a bad one. No argument there. But I can see why a Retailers Association would like it. I find it highly unlikely that it would find its way into any amendment to the Act.

 

I'll wait and see what UKARA finally comes up with (if indeed they publish it to us lowly players), before I grab a pitchfork, and spark my torch up .

 

But hey, just my view... Not saying that's how things are

[Krazeh]

Tbh I think we should all calm the *fruitcage* down, get a bit of perspective and stop acting like this is the end of the world. One email has been sent by a retailer to a group of other retailers giving their views on what they think would be good changes to the current system. That's it. The Home Office may or may not look at reviewing the VCRA, all we know is that ACPO have apparently deemed the VCRA unenforceable with regards to RIFs. But if they do look at reviewing the VCRA then I'm sure it'd have a full consultation period in which anyone could put forward their views. That would be the time to raise concerns and put forward a proposal from the 'community'. The ridiculous knee-jerk reaction that's been seen over what is a over-sensationalised (imo) bit of reporting that seems to have little research done into it before it was published doesn't achieve anything or show anyone in a good light.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

So, your stance is to wait and see.....fair enough, I can respect that. Problem is, there's plenty of historical examples of groups who took that stance, and in almost every case those groups ended up with the short end of the stick.

 

If there was no response to this, and we know it's real, Frank's own words on his company's Facebook page prove that, then silence could (and most likely would) be seen as compliance from the community. A strong boycott sends a message any retailer would understand, and let's those who feel empowered to 'speak for airsoft' know their ideas suck.

[hitmanNo2]

Complaining about something when clearly someone is taking the gets things sorted.  I recall a while ago an independent Porsche dealer was ripping out factory installed sports exhausts and then charging customers to have them re-installed.  After an outcry from the users of a forum they ceased this practice.

[harborne blue]

Looks like FS are being dirty dogs here and going behind the back of the UKARA board:

 

From ZeroOne Staff on their own forum:

We are strongly opposed to any interference in this regard with any authority.

When Fire Support approached us as a fellow UKARA board member informing us that they had been in discussions with the home office, ACPO and trading standards for the last year we were shocked that this was the first we had heard about it, given that discussions of this nature should be disclosed to all UKARA board members at the time so a united response can be given. We were even more shocked at the unnecessary suggestions given that none of these authorities have, to our knowledge, requested from UKARA any proposals in the change to the way that things currently operate. To our knowledge all authorities are content to leave it as it is.

We, along with other UKARA board members, firmly believe that there is no point poking a potential hornets nest of problems for the sport, when there is absolutely no need at this time to change anything. If people within the sport poke for an official stand point where it is not necessary to do so, we all may not like the answer... since they will be duty bound to reply with one.

In a UKARA board email yesterday the majority of the board voted for no further action at this time, however Fire Support took it upon themselves to circulate an email to all UKARA members with their own personal views which, sadly has been interpreted by some as the views of UKARA when it is most certainly not.

[Smoke]

Certainly wait and see what UKARA comes up with first, not sit on thumbs until the last minute with my head in the sand .

 

Going on Zero1's response published on the previous page. This is going nowhere, fast. What I do foresee, is a potential public froth fest as UKARA implodes due to this silly situation, ego's get knocked, and some poor sod has to try and pick up the toys thrown from prams.

 

Still... Happy days eh?

 

Edit... Ninja'd with the zero1 response...

[Krazeh]

So, your stance is to wait and see.....fair enough, I can respect that. Problem is, there's plenty of historical examples of groups who took that stance, and in almost every case those groups ended up with the short end of the stick.

 

If there was no response to this, and we know it's real, Frank's own words on his company's Facebook page prove that, then silence could (and most likely would) be seen as compliance from the community. A strong boycott sends a message any retailer would understand, and let's those who feel empowered to 'speak for airsoft' know their ideas suck.

 

No, my stance is that a response should be given, if it is required, at the appropriate point. Which would be a) after the Home Office decide they're actually going to review the VCRA and have opened it up for consultation and  after UKARA have actually come up with their suggestions to put forward. All we have at the moment is a single retailer putting forward their suggestions to other retailers within a retailers association and asking for their comments. That is it. If at some point down the line UKARA, or individual retailers, send or proposes to send a response to a consultation that the 'community' disagrees with then by all means make your views known but we're not at that stage at the moment. 

 

Complaining about something when clearly someone is taking the ###### gets things sorted.  I recall a while ago an independent Porsche dealer was ripping out factory installed sports exhausts and then charging customers to have them re-installed.  After an outcry from the users of a forum they ceased this practice.

 

So a retailer trying to have a private discussion with other retailers who are all part of an association is taking the now? Are they now allowed to have internal discussions or should they run everything past us in case someone disagrees with something that might be said? 

[QQexDERA]

The issue is that he's already been talking to the Home Office, so the other UKARA members are rightly at him for doing something off his own back that could have massive ramifications for them, let alone the players.

[Krazeh]

The issue is that he's already been talking to the Home Office, so the other UKARA members are rightly ###### at him for doing something off his own back that could have massive ramifications for them, let alone the players.

 

Surely it'd kinda be part of the role of the Chairman of UKARA to keep in touch with organisations like the Home Office and ACPO as an ongoing concern? Who else would you speak to if you were trying to find out why it didn't seem anyone was taking any action when members tried to report VCRA breaches? Tbh I find the idea that UKARA members had no idea he was talking to relevant organisations about VCRA/UKARA related things like who should be dealing with reports of breaches of the VCRA to be highly unlikely. What did they think he was doing? Or do they all consider it to simply be a honorific title?