Range and Accuracy?

[Captain Leisure]

OK I know this is like asking - which is the one true religion? But I'd like some general pointers.

 

I've played a few woodland games using a rental M4 which worked fine, once I understood what "adjusting the hop-up" meant.

 

However, I noticed that some of my opponents seemed to achieving significantly better range and accuracy than I was. Many of them had some pretty fancy gear.

 

I've now got a G&G Top Tech M4 which I haven't used yet but I'd like to know what kind of range and accuracy one can reasonably expect. (I've been reading up the technical side of things and started a thread on how to upgrade my gun.)

 

I've got years of experience with firearms, shotguns and airguns but TBH I know nothing about the ballistics of BBs and AEGs.

 

So........

 

What makes a BB gun accurate?

 

What effective range can you expect with a 350fps limit?

 

Are .20 or .25s more useful or doesn't it matter at such velocities?

 

 

I've got several thousand .20s and .25s to practice with.

[Phubar]

Firstly, ammo weight is a key point so I'm glad you brought it up.  The heavier the weight the further it will fly, the less deviation at extreme range but the slower it will travel in comparison to lighter weight pellets.  I use .2s for chronoing only or in my support weapon (the deviation at longer ranges makes for a nice spread when the Stoner gets chugging), .25s in everything else (sniper rifle gets .4s).  It's advisable to buy quality ammo as I've encountered lots of players complaining about terrible fps issues and feeding jams.  Even had one break a tappet plate due to a jam. I've even come across a pellet that had both hemispheres misaligned, so it looked more like an S from the side, perfect for cutting you hop rubber and making your gun useless instantly.  Using crappy ammo may also invalidate your retailer's warranty so check with them on what to use.

Secondly, your hop unit is what affects accuracy.  And here's the real kicker; every hop unit has individual needs (at least G&P hops do).  You need to source different types of hop rubbers and hop nubs, and play around with their combinations to see which gives you the best range, accuracy and precision.  The hop rubber is a sheath that fits around the end of the inner barrel that meets the gearbox air nozzle.  The hop nub is used by the hop unit to push down on the hop rubber to provide a contact patch on the pellet being fired. Sometimes there can be deviations in accuracy that has nothing to do with the quality of rubber and nub that you use.  Tips I've been given to reduce deviation are to use epoxy resin to fix the nub to the hop arm, and then the use flashhider shims cut into quarters to shim the hop arm to remove any side to side movement.  Also, tying dental floss around the hop rubber 3/4 of the way up it's length, past the window used by the hop nub, allows for a much tighter seal and better fps.

 

Thirdly, your inner barrel plays a part.  It mainly affects precision in that the tighter the barrel diameter (to a certain extent) the better your grouping.  I find 6.03mm inner barrels to be a solid choice over the standard 6.08mm found in most off the shelf weapons.  Tighter barrels also increase the fps of the weapon they're fitted to due to less air being able to move round the sides of the pellet when fired.  But don't make the mistake of thinking that barrel length has anything to do with range, it's not like realsteel firearms (gas blowback physics are different but not needed to be discussed on AEG topics).  Also to note that the inner barrel will never be a tight fit in any AEG outer barrel.  This allows for deviation and can be fixed by running PTFE tape around the inner barrel, barber pole styl, so as to provide better seating when cobbled together.

 

A starting point on hop rubber and nub sourcing for me in the past has been a Big Out H-nub and G&P hop rubber. For ammo, Excel or Blaster BBs (Guarder tan 0.4s for sniper). Best of luck to you!

 

EDIT: As for your question "What effective range can you expect with a 350fps limit?", in my experience my M14 fired further at 300fps than my G&P M16 (before it became an M7A1) did at 320fps.  Moral of the story; fps is NOT the be all and end all on the topic of airsoft gun range limits. 

[Captain Leisure]

Blimey! Thanks for the in depth response. A lot to take in there. The hop-up modding advice  sounds especially useful.

 

I'm surprised that inner barrels are such a poor fit into outers. (In fact I didn't realise you even had inner AND outer barrels)

 

I realise that longer barrels don't improve fps but I assume a long, tightbore is more accurate than a short, less-tight bore? (All other things being equal)

 

I guess the most important thing with FPS is making sure it doesn't exceed the site limits.

[Lone_Bullet]

About the inner barrel: the quality of the barrel affects the flightpath more than the diameter. 

So yes, a 6.05 standard brass will get you worse results compared with a 6.01 steel barrel.

However, take a 6.01 and a 6.05 or wider BOTH in steel, then in theory the wider barrel should give you the accuracy advantage at the end of your range.

This is of course open for discussion but the thought after this that the wider the barrel, the better the BB stabilizes before taking flight.

Narrow barrels give good accuracy at the first few meters and are very much usable in CQB or target course.

 

What also helps is a steel outer barrel when you have a wobbly plastic or worn metal one. The sturdier the whole body is the better, as it is with real weaponry.

You want minimal flex, what good is a weapon when you aim but flexes the barrel off target a degree?

Use thin tape around the inner barrel to close the gap between the outer and the inner barrel, thus minimalising vibrations when firing.

This is quite useful when using 'long barrels replicas' like DMRs.

 

Thanks to Phubar, much else has been explained .

FPS is indeed not the holy grail of AEG's. A consistent flightpath is.

 

Have fun but watch the wallet!

[renegadecow]

Just to add, it becomes easier to understand when you accept the fact that hopped bbs aren't necessarily following principles of projectile motion but are more like gliding little spheres. They aren't so much as being thrown out the barrel but are flying out from it. Range and accuracy boils down to consistency of the system, from the air seal down to the vibrations of the inner barrel. About bore diameters, it's now being more widely accepted that a wider bore is more accurate than a tighter one because a cushion of air around the bb stabilizes its flight better than skidding across and bouncing about in a tight barrel.

[Captain Leisure]

FPS is indeed not the holy grail of AEG's. A consistent flightpath is

 

Just to add, it becomes easier to understand when you accept the fact that hopped bbs aren't necessarily following principles of projectile motion but are more like gliding little spheres.

 

 

Thanks guys all makes some sense to me - especially the two bits above.

 

 

However, the best advice is probably:

 

 

Have fun but watch the wallet!

 

That's the bit I'm most worried about......

[Tinkerton]

Personally, I'd rather have a gun that hits what I'm aiming at at 25 meters than one that hits the rough area at 30 meters. Consistency is key. Once you know it's capabilities you can then alter your play style around that.

 

With regards to BB weight, heavier BB's don't necessarily fly 'further', but they DO tend to be more accurate as they are affect less by wind and the like, and do tend to have more energy to impart onto the target (that is, people tend to feel hits from heavier BB's more easily than they do from lighter ones).

 

My first steps would be to make the gearbox as consistent as possible with the output, but if you're new to the sport fiddly internal work isn't the best place to start, so make sure you've got a decent quality barrel (I'd take a prometheus 6.08 over a cheap 6.01 any day), then start playing with hop rubbers and nubs.

[Phubar]

With regards to BB weight, heavier BB's don't necessarily fly 'further', but they DO tend to be more accurate as they are affect less by wind and the like, and do tend to have more energy to impart onto the target (that is, people tend to feel hits from heavier BB's more easily than they do from lighter ones).

 

Slight contradiction there, methinks.  If an object travelling at speed can impart more energy when it encounters a surface in comparison to a lighter object, this hints at the heavier object having more kinetic energy.  The more kinetic energy an object has, the more force is required to slow or stop it, and if atmospheric factors are taken into account (wind speed, temperature, humidity etc) doing a test with both pellet weights back to back will show that the heavier pellet will travel farther,even if that is by a few feet, if the tests are both conducted under the same conditions.

 

 

And that should read 'farther', but that's just a side note.

[Baddbaz]

The average accurate range / man size target for a g&g top tech m4 is 50 / 55 Mtrs dependant on model chosen that's with .25 bbs

The barrel diameter varies between gen 1 ( 6.04 tb ) gen2 / 3 (6.03 tb ) as standard . ( factory tight bores )

Earlier models had 6.05 barrels .

The gen 2 onwards models benifit from the green hop rubbers , but some gen 1 guns had them fitted .

To maximize barrel / hop seal use ptfe tape to make the barrel / hop unit as airtight as possible .

Ptfe tape is a tape used by plumbers / gas engineers to ensure a water / gas tight seal when fitting pipes / pumps etc together . There are two thicknesses readily available . The gas tape being the thicker / stronger of the two . Also handy for resealing leaky gbb / gas mags .

Consistency between shots is king when it comes to an accurate gun . Bb type / weight . Hop rubbers , nubs , barrel resonance / vibration , spring tension etc are all factors to look at / tweak when trying to get an accurate gun . Most bbguns have a sweet spot when it comes to fps , not always at the guns maximum fps setting either . Its a case of trying different springs / fps to find the guns optimal settings .

I have several g&g guns amongst other brands . They are pretty good guns straight out of the box .

[Tinkerton]

Slight contradiction there, methinks.  If an object travelling at speed can impart more energy when it encounters a surface in comparison to a lighter object, this hints at the heavier object having more kinetic energy.  The more kinetic energy an object has, the more force is required to slow or stop it, and if atmospheric factors are taken into account (wind speed, temperature, humidity etc) doing a test with both pellet weights back to back will show that the heavier pellet will travel farther,even if that is by a few feet, if the tests are both conducted under the same conditions.

 

And that should read 'farther', but that's just a side note.

 

Yeah, you're probably right there. I meant more the fact that given an identical, perfect system, heavier BB's wouldn't travel as far as lighter ones (in an AEG, there's voodoo in them gas ones). however, because they're less likely to be deflected by gusts of wind / leaves and the like, they might feel like they travel farther. 

 

In reality, the maths of it is beyond me, so it's probably better to listen to people that understand these things.

 

An observation i have made though, is that generally, new players tend to use 0.20g BB's, as they're cheaper. More experienced players will tend to use heavier BB's as they've grown past the "zomg full auto everything!" phase (this doesnt apply to people with support guns, such as myself. Feeding an M60 anything but .2's is a quick way to bankruptcy )

[T3CH]

http://ncairsoft.org/forum/showthread.php?10522-Airsoft-ballistics-and-point-of-aim

 

 

Best thread I've seen on the subject

 

also

 

http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/

[3vi1-D4n]

This topic is one of those topics that has been a point of much study and more we know about it the more voodoo we realise it is.

 

As mentioned above, Ammo weight, Hop unit and barrel quality are major determinants of accuracy but there are other contributors to accuracy.

 

- Outer barrel fitment to inner barrel, is it tight fitting or hollow.  If it is hollow is it spacered or free floating?

- The harmonics of the inner barrel which is determined by barrel length and material, as well as the fitment of the outer barrel. 

- The design of the outer barrel, whether it is 2 piece or one piece.

- The fitting of the outer barrel to the receiver

- The fixturing of the barrel trunion to the receiver

-  Does it uses a Bipod and if it does where are the forces affecting the barrel?

-  For AEGs, the rotation of the motor in relation to the weapon axis.

-  Airseal combination between the type of airnozzle, type of hop unit design/manufacturer and type of hop rubber.

 

Its a HUGH technical question.

 

Then the other side of the equation is that an accurate weapon is only accurate at one range, but not the next.  FPS, ammo, and sighting systems are also then contributors to accuracy.

 

e.g. 

 

Stock Marui MP5K @260fps with its stock barrel and a Red dot sight is capable of hitting a 1" coin at 20m with 0.2gs 100% of the time.  But can't hit targets past 35m. 

 

Stock WE PDW @390fps can hit a 5" by 5" target at 35m with 0.25g BBs on iron sights, but has trouble getting players out to 50m.

 

Upgraded PSG1 @525fps with 0.36g BBs with custom barrel trunnion and 6.01 Tightbore barrel can't hit the same 1" coin at 20m, can't hit the 5"X5" at 35m it can consistently hit human sized targets out to 80m.

 

KWA MP7 with a hop modification at 420fps is more accurate at 50m than an upgraded Maruzen L96 with zero trigger, tightbore barrels, and custom hop up, at the same FPS with a much shorter barrel.

 

CA SA58 Long barrel version at 420fps can change its accuracy from spectacular to poor with just a change in hop rubbers.  I tried 10 different types of hop rubbers all yielding a different hop trajectory and fall of shot.

 

An M3/magnifier combo will yield different results at differing ranges.  M3 alone will yield tighter groups at short ranges but with the magnifier the accuracy goes out the window.  However at >40m range the magnifier allows for better accuracy.

[Stuey]

People have already covered most points pretty well so I won't waffle too much.

 

First, there are two things that affect how far an airsoft gun will fire a BB - fps and hopup. People will tell you that fps isn't important for range; that's a slight lie - it very much does matter as fps governs how much kinetic energy the BB has and the more energy the farther it will fly. However, spherical BBs slow down so quickly (especially 0.2s) that above about 300 fps it's very much a diminishing returns sort of thing and you are better off fiddling with your hopup. A stable, effective hopup will do wonders for how your gun shoots so concentrate on making sure it seals well and can't move once you've adjusted it. As others have said, every gun is different so ideally you'd try a few hop rubbers to see which works best for you. You can also try changing the soft hop nub that most guns come with for a rigid one (a piece of biro ink tube works well) for better consistency.

 

BB choice is simple - you use the heaviest BBs that you can afford. As long as your hopup is effective enough, heavier BBs will fly farther, more accurately and less easily deflected by wind and foliage and whatever else. This is because their increased mass means that they retain their energy better and the hopup spin will also last longer. So it's down to what you can afford to buy regularly really. If you're worried about time of flight, I can tell you that past about 90 feet heavier BBs actually get there sooner (again because they don't slow as quickly as light BBs) and below 90 feet the difference is very small - you'd be hard pushed to notice it I think.

 

I'll also refer you to this site - http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/ (the time of flight graph is there amongst many others). Makes for intriguing reading. 

 

I mainly use GBBs, and my TM P226 and KWA MP7 shoot beautifully with .4g BBs. Yes they're expensive, but I don't fire that many so it evens out.

 

For barrels, the consistency of the bore is way more important than the actual size of the bore so go for a good quality barrel like PDI or Prometheus. However, current thinking is that wider bores are more accurate so try a quality 6.05 or 6.08, or a curve ball like the TK Twist barrels.

[Inari]

What most people forget is that the number one factor affecting accuracy and consistency is...*drumroll* your choice of BB's. Afterall it is what you're firing, so the first thing to do is buy some high quality BB's and test to see which brand and weight works best for you. This now gives you your benchmark - you know what your gun does with 'X' brand of 'Y' weight. Heavier BB's travel slower (i.e. take longer to reach their target), however they are more consistent. Personally I won't use lower than 0.25g as I find anything lighter is just too inconsistent.

 

From here, I would then make my gun as consistent as possible - take the shot to shot power deviation down to its lowest. I would replace the cylinder and remove the pneumatic blowback, put in a bearing spring guide, and ensure there is solid compression between piston head, cylinder, cylinder head and air nozzle. There should be good resistance when pushing the piston in (covering the air nozzle), so provided you've achieved good compression, move on. Next in the line is making sure you don't have an air leak between hop up chamber and nozzle. G&G M4-type guns do not have a spring on the hop up chamber to hold it against the gearbox - I would personally install a suitable sized spring around the barrel ala G&P MRP, or use O-Rings to keep it firmly against the gearbox. Turn the gun upside down (mag out), and place a piece of tissue paper onto the feed tube. Pull the trigger and see if the paper moves; if it moves you've got an air leak, if not then you're gravy. For air leaks you need to look at your barrel & hop assembly.

 

Re-test the gun and see how it's performing. If you find you are still not getting the range and accuracy you want/need, then it's time to tackle the barrel and hop. Your hop up is responsible for your range, and your barrel is for consistency. Accuracy is more about adjusting your sights to where your BB's are landing. For your hop up chamber, provided there's no damage to it, it's fine to use. You can modify the hop up arm to have greater adjustment by adding material to the arm. Personally I prefer the likes of the Madbull Ultimate 3-in-1 hop up chamber due to the wheel-based design. There are other ones on the market that offer this (e.g. prowin), but I just like the Madbull one. Once happy with your chamber's adjustment, then you're onto the hop up rubber (if not opting for the likes of the R-hop) - personally I love the G&G Green hop up rubber...one of my favourites. I'd use that, wrap it in PTFE tape for a better seal, and reinstall. For a nub I'd be using either SCS, H-Nub, or a piece of bic/biro tubing. The harder the nub, the more effective the adjustment.

 

Barrel wise you have a rake load of things to choose from; diameter (6.2 - 6.01mm), build material (brass, steel, aluminium, and coated versus non-coated), manufacturer (some brands have better reputations than others). For closer range consistency I'd go with tighter bore e.g. 6.01mm (I personally abhor 6.02...just find it pointless), whereas for greater range you go with wider bore. Tighter-bore barrels at range have poorer consistency due to the harmonics of the barrel, particularly in longer barrels. Longer than 455mm you're better off with 6.04mm. 6.03 is a good starting point, and I would probably start with Madbull Black Python to be honest - their barrels are better than stock ones, but are by no means the best of the best...I would certainly rank Prometheus as much higher quality...just many monies

 

You then want to stabilise everything - have as little movement between inner and outer barrel, as well as locking down the outer barrel. This should give you optimal consistency, and for range you're looking at trying out different hop up rubbers to see what works best.

 

Hope this helps!

[Baddbaz]

Totally agree on this one . The more ridgid the barrel / hop is mounted into the gun the less resonance the barrel suffers , some short barreled guns have better range than their long barrelled guns because resonance on a short barrel is much less than on a long barrel with no bracing / packing .

Also materials used in the guns construction can determine its resonance , vibration damping characteristics .

I always use the rs svd as the epitome of a good accurate gun .

Real steel external construction make for a very solid non resonant base to mount Airsoft internals into .

Overbore piston , to maximise use of its long barrel

Extra gear on the gearbox to ease strain on the guns gearbox and maximise torque

The very clever barrel , that uses a blunderbus type barrel . A high quality barrel that tapers out wards towards its end internaly . So a tb that widens out as the bb comes to the end of it . Thus reducing bb contact to the barrel before it leaves the barrel .

This barrel is mounted inside a very solid steel outer barrel tightly to reduce resonance .

An amazing micro adjustable hop unit that clicks into its settings on a ratchet type mech , so once set it stays put. . This too is solidly mounted into the gun with no movement present .

All of the rs guns are exeptionaly accurate and long ranging ootb . Due to the exeptionaly solid build quality and solid way they mount the hop / barrel into their guns .

I try to build / mod my other guns where possible to incorporate extra barrel spacers / packing , etc to mimic the rs Way of gaining range and accuracy and minimizing vibration / resonance .

[Stuey]

Heavier BB's travel slower (i.e. take longer to reach their target)

 

I feel this should be knocked on the head before we progress - I refer you to this page, bottom left graph. Heavy BBs are only slower to the target at less than ~ 90 feet, and even then the difference is tiny fractions of a second.

 

Yeah, you're probably right there. I meant more the fact that given an identical, perfect system, heavier BB's wouldn't travel as far as lighter ones

 

Same page I linked Inari to. It would appear that heavier BBs always go farther, even with no hopup.

 

Now while you have to be careful with simulations, I think that guy's mathematical model of BB flight is complete enough that it can be trusted (especially for the graphs without hopup, that's fairly simple to model).

[3vi1-D4n]

Totally agree on this one . The more ridgid the barrel / hop is mounted into the gun the less resonance the barrel suffers , some short barreled guns have better range than their long barrelled guns because resonance on a short barrel is much less than on a long barrel with no bracing / packing .

Also materials used in the guns construction can determine its resonance , vibration damping characteristics .

I always use the rs svd as the epitome of a good accurate gun .

Real steel external construction make for a very solid non resonant base to mount Airsoft internals into .

Overbore piston , to maximise use of its long barrel

Extra gear on the gearbox to ease strain on the guns gearbox and maximise torque

The very clever barrel , that uses a blunderbus type barrel . A high quality barrel that tapers out wards towards its end internaly . So a tb that widens out as the bb comes to the end of it . Thus reducing bb contact to the barrel before it leaves the barrel .

This barrel is mounted inside a very solid steel outer barrel tightly to reduce resonance .

An amazing micro adjustable hop unit that clicks into its settings on a ratchet type mech , so once set it stays put. . This too is solidly mounted into the gun with no movement present .

All of the rs guns are exeptionaly accurate and long ranging ootb . Due to the exeptionaly solid build quality and solid way they mount the hop / barrel into their guns .

I try to build / mod my other guns where possible to incorporate extra barrel spacers / packing , etc to mimic the rs Way of gaining range and accuracy and minimizing vibration / resonance .

 

Yup that is why I am gonna start using concrete on the hollow outer barrelled weapons like the M700s, pouring concrete between the inner and outer barrel to create perfect barrel fit with minimised harmonic oscillations

 

 

 

On top of this accuracy and range, the overarching questions are:

 

Do you really need sniper rifle accuracy on your 10" carbine???

 

 

- Given your selected:

 

Role/purpose

Weapon length and class

Playing style

 

Question to ask - Do you need more:

Range?

Accuracy?

Speed to target?

Rate of fire?

 

A few examples:

 

--------------------------------

 

1) An SMG with a <8" barrel, and while the SMG may be capable of DMR accuracy but thats not really want the SMG is intended to be used for.

SMGs sized weapons are used for < 25m engagements so there is no point using an SMG for further ranges or to upgrade its power beyond 40m.  Closer range means that you want to have quicker reach to target.

 

Same principles apply with assault rifles with barrels between 10"-18",  Since most modern FIBUA/bush combat in real life and in airsoft is between 30-90m there is no need for guns to be upgraded too high.

 

Hence:

 

For SMGs - You don't need more than 360fps, cos otherwise you will injure people

For assault rifles - You don't need more than 420fps. 

You don't need to use ammo more than 0.25gs if you want a quicker reach.

You don't need tightbores/extended barrel for your SMG, though mild accuracy mods for assault rifles.

 

 

2) A short LSW like a MK46 or M249 Para serves as a SAW role which means you want to be able to have slight range advantage up to 80m,  but do requirement for accurate DMR fire.  You may not want to have a quick reach as it is not paramount, but since its a short LSW, you may want to be fast enough to transition between closer ranges and longer ranges, hence:

 

You will want the fps between 360-450fps (depending where you play), that will give range advantage, and higher rate of fire.

You need to use ammo more than 0.25gs but less than 0.3g as you will get accuracy balanced with a quick reach.

You don't need tightbores/extended barrels.

 

3) A DMR vs a sniper rifle.

 

A DMR is designed to put down precision fire to support troops advancing.  However it is used to hit targets which are more or less moving.  So you want your rounds to have a quick reach but more accuracy than an LSW.  You may also want the rounds to go as far as an LSW, in cases maybe more.  Hence:

 

You will want the fps between 400-480fps as you will be transitioning between an individual weapon and a support weapon, too high fps would mean you would have lower rates of fire but increase chance to hurt people.

You will need ammo higher than 0.25gs but no more than 0.36gs

You will need a mild accuracy modifications.

 

A sniper rifle is designed to hit more static targets at greater ranges 50-100m with accuracy.  It is not a support weapon per se.  It does not need high ROF or quick reach.  Hence:

 

FPs between 450-600fps.

Ammo as heavy as possible

Extreme accuracy mods (R-hop/flat hop, harmonics tuning, or LRB)

 

-----------------------------

[Baddbaz]

Lighter bbs accelerate and decelerate faster than heavier bbs and are more prone to external wind influence . Wheras heavier bbs though slower to accelerate do hold their momentum for longer .

And are less affected by wind etc . So a bit more consistant when shot towards a target .

[sniperelite7]

One true religion? I like my faith quick and dirty. If you want range and accuracy use .30g+ and if your feeling decadent, burst fire at people. FPS is irrelevant. Just make sure your hop can spin it up, for that you need a flathop/r-hop/ or whatever the heck is on the market that will spin the heavies. I prefer the r-hop above anything else, it will spin up anything, and even if it may perform the same as any good quality hopup as some argue, it still separates the contact patch from the airseal rubber.

[3vi1-D4n]

Oh I know! Lets put .43gs in an MP5K, drum mag a tightbore and scope on it!  It will be a c001 1337 snipar rifel machien gunn !!!

 

 

 

The only religion is common sense mate, with the holy trinity of Past experiences, Present observations and Desired outcomes.

[sniperelite7]

Oh I know! Lets put .43gs in an MP5K, drum mag a tightbore and scope on it!  It will be a c001 1337 snipar rifel machien gunn !!!

 

 

 

The only religion is common sense mate, with the holy trinity of Past experiences, Present observations and Desired outcomes.

 

Yup, and in my experience, past observation, and desired outcomes with two of my guns, one r-hopped shooting at 370/w.2s and the other a stock asg aug..shooting around 300fps and undervolumed. Both give enough hop to sufficiently huck a .30g, with the r-hopped one throwing .3s out too 60-70 meters. Though that one has sufficient air volume that its energy output would be about equal to 400fps/.2 with a .3

 

The aug, undervolumed and underpowered even by the op's fps limit, was able to put a slight overhop on .3s, enough to be competitive in woodland. So yeah, assuming equivalent power levels and bb mass, you can easily demolish any so called sniper with a good burst. To say the least of all the folks who think .25s are the ideal field weight. 

 

Seriously, Tokyo Marui ships their guns with .25s. 270fps? That should tell you something. For a gun moving plastic 70fps faster, at least move the mass of your projectile up as well.

[3vi1-D4n]

Not disagreeing there with 0.3gs.  I would disagree with 0.43gs.  hence I would have to say, that your statement of heavier the ammo is better is not true.

 

What is ideal? Some may say its subjective, but it is clearly isn't.  It is whatever is the least amount of effort and cost to reach and sustain your desired outcome. 

 

Example:

 

Can you use 0.43g BBs on an MP5K? yes! 

Is it effective in reaching targets at long ranges?  yes!

Is it accurate?  no, short barrel.

Is it gonna make people feel it?  Hell yes?

Are you going to wear hop rubber? Yes

Are you going to break the bank suppressing with 000's of rounds of ammo if you using it as a support weapon?  Yes?

Is it wasting quality ammo for no reason cos you cant hit thing accurately anyways? Yes

Is it the minimum effort/cost to achieve the purpose which it it was intended for? No

 

What is possible is often not what is sustainable and practical for the purpose it was intended.  Hence simply put, not ideal.

[sniperelite7]

Well I would disagree with accuracy. While barrel length does play some part, I see it taking a back seat to barrel quality, bbs, and hop. I don't think it would hinder it to the point of being unusable. You certainly won't win competitions, but you'd still be skirmish effective.

 

No one said anything about cost, and it is airsoft. What is efficient for one guy isn't efficient for another. I hear you though, I would like to use .4s more often, but they hurt the wallet. I've found .3s to be efficient, breaking the middle ground between weight and cost. Honestly though, if someone comes running in asking for what to do for best range and accuracy. I always recommend the use of heavies, if the cost is too high, they can back track to what works for them. It won't be ideal for the stated goal-effective range. But at least they know what too look for.

[Captain Leisure]

Thanks everybody.

 

Tons of useful stuff - far too much to digest in one sitting but I'll work through it.

 

Sure, I don't expect sniper rifle accuracy from my carbine but I am interested in how it all works and what can be done to maximise performance.

 

I'll start out with .25BBs and think about hop-up options down the line.

[3vi1-D4n]

 

 

 

Well I would disagree with accuracy. While barrel length does play some part, I see it taking a back seat to barrel quality, bbs, and hop. I don't think it would hinder it to the point of being unusable. You certainly won't win competitions, but you'd still be skirmish effective.

 

 

Yes Accuracy doesn't just depend on barrel length, it is the quality of the barrel and the trunion.  However the effectiveness is about being accurate at WHAT range for what purpose.

 

As I did say before, Marui MP5Ks can get superb accuracy at 20m but then short barrels <5" tend not to provide a flatter trajectory after 30m so while the rounds do get to 50-60m they are more like lobbing and not as predictable hence not as "accurate".  So a Marui MP5K is more suited to closer engagements rather than long range work.

 

Classic real steel example is a H&K UMP.  At 25m they have fantastic accuracy but beyond 50m its like lobbing paintballs. 

 

No one said anything about cost, and it is airsoft. What is efficient for one guy isn't efficient for another. I hear you though, I would like to use .4s more often, but they hurt the wallet. I've found .3s to be efficient, breaking the middle ground between weight and cost. Honestly though, if someone comes running in asking for what to do for best range and accuracy. I always recommend the use of heavies, if the cost is too high, they can back track to what works for them. It won't be ideal for the stated goal-effective range. But at least they know what too look for.

 

I am presenting the idea to others that cost is also something to consider.  If you can get the same outcome with 0.25g then why not?  Cost less and gives the same effectiveness, then its a bonus

 

 

I guess I am trying to say that purposefully maximising effectiveness while only using what is needed and making them work together, lends to better long term results than using over the top bits and pieces as it decreases durability, with no additional performance gain.