Marijuana - Legalization, trends in the US, UK Law.

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

PREFACE: PLEASE NOTE: This is not a thread for discussing where to find drugs, the price of drugs, etc. This is simply a place I thought people could discuss their views on legalization, legalization within the UK etc. I hope that people come in with an open mind, and discuss with their peers without degenerating to lying, name calling etc - Whatever side of the argument!

 

Last year two important votes were held in the US, in the states of Washington and Colorado. The bills proposed would make it legal at the state level to possess and grow certain amounts of marijuana. Both votes passed, with Colorado's law having come into effect on January 1st and Washington's is going to come into effect sometime this year.

 

These votes were particularly important considering the contrast to the so called "War on Drugs" taking place at the Federal level; DEA agents would frequently shut down medical marijuana dispensaries so it's interesting to see two states completely legalize it.

 

Although votes in other states (California, 2012) have failed, the pro-legalization movement is gaining ground with discussions taking place not just in the US but in the UK, Canada, France etc.

 

I'm curious where everyone within Arnies stands. 

 

 

My stance: Considering the relatively low danger of the drug compared to others (Cocaine, Heroin, Alcohol...), and the low rate of addiction, I'm perfectly fine with its legalization. If properly handled, it could serve to lower the risk of people getting into harder, more damaging drugs via the "gateway" of their dealer, as well as providing a source of tax for the government to funnel into proactive areas such as the NHS, education etc.

 

It would cut down on the "grit weed" (dusting weed with crushed glass or sand to make the bag seem heavier/larger... Nasty stuff!) that's making a comeback recently, or spraying marijuana with other agents to increase its potency.

[hwagan]

My opinion is thus; 

 

Weed is illegal, so there's an illegal market for it. It can be mixed with a lot of things, easily snuck past the untrained eye of a 17 year old, and quality and quantity varies massively with regards to what you pay for it.

 

If it were legal, the criminal industry around it would nigh on fall apart overnight, it'd become an awful lot safer, and there'd be a big fall in alcohol related crime, because a load of people who'd normally get drunk on a Friday night would instead get baked, eat wotsits by the truckload and discuss philosophy and how bad the emotional pain of not being Stirling Archer can really be. 

 

I'd say considering we're happy with alcohol being legal, why not weed? It makes people far less angry and violent than alcohol can make people, it's in general less physically harmful, and it'd have huge economic benefits.

 

 

I will say however, that weed, like anything, will mess you up if you consume it regularly or in enormous amounts. I spent a few too many years smoking weed on a daily basis, and it broke my brain a fair bit... I knocked it on the head entirely for 6 months, and now it's a weekend thing with no ill effects I've been able to discern.

[FireKnife]

My stance:

 

Given that 'weed' as it where is a drug that mellows people out rather than hypes them up I don't see how it should be treated that much differently to alcohol. Both are addictive, both are common place among society and both should in my opinion be as legal as each other in terms of possession.

 

However growing, this is something that should be regulated, kept strictly to and should reduce the potential for crime syndication while not making it simply available in this way to anyone.

 

Personally if it cuts down on crime and means that a drug that is no less harmful than the other vices we have like smoking and alcohol is made available to those that deserve it (key word, deserve, not give it out like sweets) then I am fine with it being legal.

 

Hell why don't we just have the Dutch system, it seems to work and the lovely people of Amsterdam can stop having their days ruined by yobs on boat parties as said yobs will not see the need to go and smoke pot if it is readily available back home .

 

'FireKnife'

[Skarclaw]

LEGALISE

[hitmanNo2]

Steps in the right direction imo.  Everyone knows the war on drugs is a joke.  It's just making criminals rich.  Much safer than alcohol and most people agree, you don't get addicted.  Some people really like it sure, but not addicted.

 

It is ridiculous at this time, we have a viable commodity that can generate tax and the government is not interested just to try and save face.  Just look at the millions of $ it brought in right off the bat in Colorado.  We can't afford not to legalize it.

 

Along with the growing realization of the importance of hemp based products, both marijuana and hemp will be properly legit within a few years, widespread I reckon.

 

I think the home grow deal Colorado has is pretty ideal.  Something like 6 plants per individual and 12 for a household so proper commercial grow ops are properly regulated.

 

One thing that is quite worrying for our American friends is this (taken from another forum)

 

 

It is important to note that Marijuana is "Illegal" in all 50 States according to the Federal Government, even Medical Marijuana. The individual States cannot make Legal what the Federal Government deems Illegal. What States can do is "Decriminalize" it, meaning they will not use State Moneys and or manpower to enforce Federal Laws.

According to the Federal Government and the ATF it is Illegal for a User of a "Controlled" substance to purchase or possess a firearm and ammunition. According to the ATF, pot is still a "Controlled" substance regardless of what an individual State declares "Legal".

When purchasing a firearm the buyer is asked on form 4473 line 11e if they are an "Unlawful user, or addicted to Marijuana...." Even if your State as passed legislation "legalizing" pot and you are a "Legal" user according to your State, you still must answer Yes to question 11e.

Answering "Yes" will get your purchased denied. Answering "No" will constitute a Felony for lying on Federal Form 4473.

States like Colorado can Decriminalize the use of pot, but they can also arrest and prosecute legal pot users for Firearms/Ammunition possession as this is considered a Felony.

 

So you go on a list to buy legal marijuana and boom.  Bye bye guns when the time comes.

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

 

I will say however, that weed, like anything, will mess you up if you consume it regularly or in enormous amounts. I spent a few too many years smoking weed on a daily basis, and it broke my brain a fair bit... I knocked it on the head entirely for 6 months, and now it's a weekend thing with no ill effects I've been able to discern.

This is something I missed out in my initial post, and I think it bears repeating. One major affect of weed, for me, is that it makes me incredibly content and, if abused like anything else, can become a bad habit. Depending on the type it's pretty easy to just fall into a routine of smoking, sleeping, listening to music etc even if you've got shitloads of importance stuff to do. Procastinator's nightmare! I do consider that the "worst" side effect.

[Smoke]

Whilst my position on weed is probably fairly obvious... I'm not in the "full legalisation" camp.

 

I know you don't want discussions on where to buy, or prices etc... But bear with me, as I think it's relevant (I could be wrong though, so feel free to remove if inappropriate). This is only my personal experience.

 

Everything has changed over the past decade or so. Prices and weight had stayed the same for years and years. "Dealers" with regards cannabis generally just shifted a bit onto mates to pay for their own smoke. Most stuff was imported (which is why hashish was always cheaper - easier to get in). These days, it's all very organised by seriously criminal elements. Prices are up, quality is down.

 

I would very much like to remove myself from a criminals income. I know that probably comes across as ridiculous from someone who smokes, knowing the illegality of it anyway... But whilst the adverts of yesteryear maybe overplayed the organised crime behind weed, these days.. It's quite obvious.

 

I would like to be able to grow my own. That way I can control the quality of it, and not have to put money in some nasty persons pocket. The risks and complications of doing so are currently not worth it (unless you're in for a penny, in for a pound, and doing it on a commercial scale - not my bag). I think if the Government allowed limited amounts to be grown, and possession of limited amounts - whilst keeping its sale illegal, seems about right to me. Unfortunately that's probably far too complicated to actually work.

 

Besides... Nothing would get through The Lords anyway, so legalisation will never happen.

 

Edited for spelling etc, coz I'm wasted

[shmook]

Never going to happen here.

 

British stiff upper lip won't allow it.

 

"What? Legalise marriage-you-ahna? Goodness no! That may be acceptable in the colonies, but they are all savages, dammit."

 

Will not happen. Alcohol and tobacco have the infrastructure for policing it (taxing the *suitcase* out of it), and setting that up for da 'erb will cost an initial fortune.

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Smoke,

 

By discussions on prices and supply, what I meant was blatant illegal discussion such as "This guy called baz who lives in [a town] can get you [illegal drug] for [monies]".

 

And, when you mentioned legislation not passing through the HoL - Bear in mind that there was an act introduced in... 1997 I think? That means the Lords can't fully block a bill. They can delay it up to three times, and if the HoC votes it through the fourth, it goes on to the Royal Assent.

 

 

 

Shmook,

 

I think it largely depends on what happens in the US. If it becomes widespread in the US I think UK support will increase incredibly. 

[Skarclaw]

Disagree - hardly the ultimate barometr but i saw a poll in the daily mail over half favoured legalisation. Give it 5 years and a referendum i thinks

[Smoke]

The Parliament Act.

 

Any Party using that to push cannabis legalisation through would be committing political suicide in my view, but hey... Stranger things have happened.

 

A lot of people (especially stoners) hold Amsterdam as a wonderful example of how things could be. Whilst great for tourists, it's not so great for residents who enjoy a toke... Laughably (or not, as the case may be) supply seems to be an issue, as it's all snapped up to rinse tourists of their cash . Not the stoners paradise I'd want .

[Wild_XIII]

Legalizing it would make a lot of sense. People wouldn't be funding crime, instead if it were to be taxed that money could be used on more important things like the NHS etc. Between weed and alcohol, I'm on the weed band wagon. No hangover, still very much a sociable thing when with the right people and I have a much nicer time. The snack companies profits would rise ten fold as well.

[scorch]

I reckon legalise, regulate and tax.

 

When the police aren't spending time raiding the pot farms that are no longer there because there isn't an illegal market for them, they could be doing other important things.

 

Out of work science grads could be employed by a regulatory body in a QC role doing spot checks at legal outlets to keep quality at an acceptable level, paid for of course by the extra tax revenue. Because lets not muck about here, if there's anything we have a surplus of, its bloody students.

 

Amsterdam style cafes could open up in some of the empty high street (lol, see what I did there) stores that are in every town. Create a few service industry jobs while we're at it. 

[Nickona]

if it were to be taxed that money could be used on more important things like the NHS etc. 

 

Funny you should mention NHS.. If weed was a widespread as say tobacco or alcohol then there would most likely be an increase in lung related diseases (inhaling any smoke into your lungs is bad for them) and possibly accidents from driving etc and the odd overdose here and there, which have been seen to happen.

 the other issue is if it were to be legalized you would need an entire system surrounding it.. such as can you smoke then drive? if so how much? who can you buy it and at what age? could you smoke in a public place? the list goes on..

 

 

 you don't get addicted.  

 

I would also just like to highlight this point. You can get addicted! You can get addicted to absolutely anything! Yes it does not have an actively addicted substance in them like something like heroin does but you can still get addicted.

I guarantee if you had someone who had been smoking weed for a couple of years fairly regularly then i they went cold turkey there would be withdrawal symptoms. That means that person is addicted. Similarly people who "wake and bake"  to "get through the day" are most likely addicted too.

 

 

 

Onto my stance... I personally see no reason as to why it needs to be legal. I understand the tax argument that it would raise money and the take business away form criminals but I don't think it would be that effective. Firstly there's no infrastructure for that.. who are going to be the regulated suppliers? Also the cost of weed to the consumer including tax must be lower than what they could buy from their current illegal dealers otherwise people would just carry on. Yes some law abiding citizens would switch but most of the people who currently buy from their dealer would most likely carry on. If something is taxed then a black market will nearly always appear so the idea that legalizing and then taxing weed would remove the black market in my mind doesn't make realistic sense.

I also don't think we should encourage harder drug use. To me the slippery slope argument does have its merits and with all the issues we have with these apparent "legal highs" I don't think legalizing weed would help as it would suggest to young kids its okay to do drugs when there is already an issue with underage drinking and tobacco smoking.

[Skarclaw]

Funny you should mention NHS.. If weed was a widespread as say tobacco or alcohol then there would most likely be an increase in lung related diseases (inhaling any smoke into your lungs is bad for them) and possibly accidents from driving etc and the odd overdose here and there, which have been seen to happen.

 the other issue is if it were to be legalized you would need an entire system surrounding it.. such as can you smoke then drive? if so how much? who can you buy it and at what age? could you smoke in a public place? the list goes on..

 

breathing smoke into lungs isn't great but not as bad as regular tobacco usage - in any case I think a 20% tax as in Colorado would go some lengths to mitigate this. Likewise the existence of the NHS shouldn't really decide all choices of health. I think obesity will be a bigger (lol) problem then cannabis smoking. Also take into account medical marijuana which could save the NHS alot in treatment options, and also provide respite for people that don't currently have that option

 

I would also just like to highlight this point. You can get addicted! You can get addicted to absolutely anything! Yes it does not have an actively addicted substance in them like something like heroin does but you can still get addicted.

I guarantee if you had someone who had been smoking weed for a couple of years fairly regularly then i they went cold turkey there would be withdrawal symptoms. That means that person is addicted. Similarly people who "wake and bake"  to "get through the day" are most likely addicted too.

 

There is addiction addiction and there is habitual addiction. Alcohol is one of the few drugs that can have lethal withdrawal symptoms. I've lived with an alcoholic and I know some pretty heavy stoners - different kettle of fish completely

 

 

Onto my stance... I personally see no reason as to why it needs to be legal. I understand the tax argument that it would raise money and the take business away form criminals but I don't think it would be that effective. Firstly there's no infrastructure for that.. who are going to be the regulated suppliers? Also the cost of weed to the consumer including tax must be lower than what they could buy from their current illegal dealers otherwise people would just carry on. Yes some law abiding citizens would switch but most of the people who currently buy from their dealer would most likely carry on. If something is taxed then a black market will nearly always appear so the idea that legalizing and then taxing weed would remove the black market in my mind doesn't make realistic sense.

I also don't think we should encourage harder drug use. To me the slippery slope argument does have its merits and with all the issues we have with these apparent "legal highs" I don't think legalizing weed would help as it would suggest to young kids its okay to do drugs when there is already an issue with underage drinking and tobacco smoking.

 

Tackling drug sales (not just weed) comes at massive, massive expense. The drug law as it currently stands is also racist (compare crack and powered cocaine in the US) and has led to overuse of the stop and search law which has devastated relations between the plod on the street and your average urban dwelling "yoof". As for regulated suppliers - I expect that would work as it would in Colorado. The clue is in its nickname - cannabis is not hard to cultivate at all. As for people buying - as long as there is regulation or taxation there will be black market. In the first month Colorado retailers generated $1.24 million in tax. As for the slippery smoke - do you think kids don't already smoke it? Most dealers don't follow the challenge 21 scheme haha. 

 

just like my opinion man

 

edit: fun "fact" - I read that if cannabis was completely unregulated/untaxed it would be as cheap as sugar - you'd get it free with a coffee or something

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Nickona,

 

You raise a very good point about the issue of driving; what's safe, what's not, how to detect it. Obviously there are pieces of equipment that can detect whether someone's been drinking to a high degree of accuracy, but to the best of my knowledge there's not one developed for Marijuana.

 

The next-best method at the moment is a cotton swab of the inside of your cheek. But that raises the question of whether someone with THC/CBD in their bloodstream was actively driving under the influence - The test can detect cannabinoids up to a day old. Does that matter? At the moment I don't think there's enough research.

 

On an anecdotal level, the effects wear off within around 2 hours if I don't do that much.

 

 

 

Interestingly I was reading about a machine in domestic US airports that puffs air at you, and then draws it back in - and can detect extremely, extremely fine amounts of most chemicals. Sort of like a metal detector, you step through it and it beeps if any illegal substance is found. I wonder if they could adapt that to detect trace levels of MJ on a person's breath.

 

 

Edit: To address the health issue, with regard to smoking, I should state that there are developed methods of ingestion that don't rely on combustion. Vapourisation for example heats the marijuana to the point where the trichomes (Where all the resinous THC, CBD and other cannabinoids are stored) simply evapourate - And drawn in without any smoke, cancerous chemicals etc.

 

There's also edibles - Heating the marijuana and extracting the cannabinoids and then combining it with a fatty substance like butter. You then cook the butter into something like brownies, cake etc and ingest it through eating it. Much safer, and delicious

[Skarclaw]

I was thinking it can't be too hard to make a tincture by reducing down bud in ethanol then popping it in an e-cig right? 

 

my current very much 1st world problem is that the weed in London is by and large good - I've rarely had duff bags. However it tends to be strong - mostly blue cheese or some amnesia strain. "provincial" weed in my exp hit or miss however I had some nice "think different" stuff recently. Off to barcelona end of the month for some hashish and in april morocco ho ho ho

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Skarclaw, please try to refrain from discussing methods of manufacturer in detail. There are plenty of forums set up for that purpose. The purpose of this thread is for discussion of legalisation and safety.

[Skarclaw]

lol was in response to your methods of making edible cannabis  

[Cannonfodder80]

I think some people need to put down the joint and pick-up a dictionary. It's legaliSe not legaliZe.

 

Anyway, I think it should be decriminalised rather than legalised. I would allow the sale through licensed shops but rather than have cafe's, only allow it in your own home.

 

Re driving, while roadside drug detection kits aren't available yet they are being developed. In the meantime sobriety tests are used as it's already illegal to drive while high

 

As for the health effects IMO more research is needed, particularly into the mental health of long term users as while there is some evidence of links to conditions like schizophrenia, little is really known

 

Lastly I doubt any of this will happen as any government announcing it as a policy would be committing political suicide

[hitmanNo2]

Think how much money it would save the UK prison system. It was what, £40K a year per prisoner a few years ago.  Think how many people could have early release on BS MJ charges and how much that would save us.  Hundreds of thousands. Millions? Maybe. Think how much time would be freed up for police to tackle proper crime and not wasting time on paperwork on MJ.

[Cannonfodder80]

__

Everything has changed over the past decade or so. Prices and weight had stayed the same for years and years. "Dealers" with regards cannabis generally just shifted a bit onto mates to pay for their own smoke. Most stuff was imported (which is why hashish was always cheaper - easier to get in). These days, it's all very organised by seriously criminal elements. Prices are up, quality is down.

 

This. I saw a tv program a few years ago which said that due to the high number of cannabis farms the UK actually now exports more weed than is smuggled in

[Wild_XIII]

Funny you should mention NHS.. If weed was a widespread as say tobacco or alcohol then there would most likely be an increase in lung related diseases (inhaling any smoke into your lungs is bad for them) and possibly accidents from driving etc and the odd overdose here and there, which have been seen to happen.

 the other issue is if it were to be legalized you would need an entire system surrounding it.. such as can you smoke then drive? if so how much? who can you buy it and at what age? could you smoke in a public place? the list goes on..

 

If it were up to me, I would treat the effects like alcohol, such as no driving after a spliff. Also I would say it's home use or a specific licensed place, such as a cafe. As for lung related diseases, there's no easy way around that one, but hey, the government don't seem to care that much about smokers either so I guess those nice big warnings you get on a pack of smokes put on a baggy would satisfy them. People can OD on so many things already from alcohol to any over the counter meds, it's all about the education on "smoking too much of this will have bad effects".

 

You raise some good points. It would take a while for the government to work out how it would work. However they can pretty much already use some of the laws in place for alcohol and nicotine consumption and adjust it for weed IMO.

 

When I've smoked it before I will NEVER drive because I know that

[scorch]

When I've smoked it before I will NEVER drive because I know that

 

Also... When I've smoked it before I will NEVER drive because I just can't be bothered. The car is all the way outside and I have enough biscuits here in the house and the sofa is plenty comfortable enough OH LOOK! Mallrats is on TV. Snoogans.

[shmook]

ARNIES IS RIFE WITH POTHEADS!