My stoopid witch gnu thread: SG552, HK53 or PDW M4

[Horsem4n]

for the last month i have been super conflicted on these 3 choices. ultimately, ill own all 3, but as a non rich person, i need to start somewhere.

 

i plan to be riding a motorcycle within the next 2 years and sell my car. i dont wish to hear anything about that decision, its just the reason i want a compact carbine.

i also plan to build one of these in real steel in the near future as well so i can use this airsoft as a training aid. i already looked into building the HK and the sig, and as long as i get enough american parts stuffed in there, i can make SBRs out of them. i do have to move out of CT though unless the utter failure of the new anti gun laws force my lawmakers to deregulate firearms. (so far, they have to charge over 150,000 people with felonies because they refused to register their newly regulated magazines and "assault weapons", good fun that will be.)

 

ANYWHOOZLE

im making this topic mainly because im bored and i want to write down everything in my head and get some opinions.

 

SG552

I am looking at the ICS Sig 552 mainly because its easier to take apart than the G&G but i know that its prone to breaking the charging handle latches if played with too much. the color isn't all that great compared to the G&G, but its also much cheaper and still compatible with G&Gs low cap mags with the nifty followers.

i plan to do normal upgrades (well, normal if you count SC gears and a BTC mosfet) and buy 12 G&G low caps to run with it. i also plan to drill and mount betalight isotopes in the night sights, run just the irons and remove all the rails aside the left handguard rail for a torch. 

 

HK53

Im looking square at the CA 53 but i have some reservations about it. its not the most popular CA HK and magazines are a *badgeress* to find. but, of my choices, its my overall favorite rifle. i want to run it on 10 midcaps, but i cant find them, so if i choose the HK53, ill really need some help in that respect. im also wondering how many people have broken CAs MP5 and X3 slither stocks? i personally had a G3 stock break on me, but never an MP5 one. worst comes to worst i can get one made of a better material, but i would like to hear about their possible failure rates.

i plan to take a bandsaw to the tri tower to remove the molded in front sight post and install HK night sights. same internal upgrades planned as the SG552.

 

PDW M4

this ones a bit different. i want to base this one on the tippmann M4 as i really want to buy one to begin with. only problem is, we dont know what stock type it uses (AEG or GBB) though im betting its got standard AR threading. installing a shorter barrel isnt an issue as i plan to just get the stock one cut down by Tony from TNK Guns. i want to build something akin to the honey badger, but it wont be the most unique looking piece as ill probably have to use a 416c stock. maybe a VFC one one maybe WE will sell theirs off the 888c. probably use on of those new fangled super slim UTG rails with the keymod coolness and just use the suppressors i already have. i plan to buy some UTG non folding rail mounted iron sights and put some meprolight night sights in them, mount an MOE-K grip if i can and put on an HSP Insight WML w/thorntail on it to round it out.

magazine wise, indoor games i just plan to run it on the 12g magazines. for outdoor, i have a suite of midcaps GTG, just have to buy a tank as i already have a basic remote rig hanging around from my paintball days.

 

all in all, each build will cost around 6-700 dollars to complete (not counting a secondary) and i just don't know what would be best for me to tackle first. im leaning towards the tippmann, as i would like another gas gun, but if i can find the midcaps for the HK, i may choose that instead.

[k30dxedle]

Regarding the HK53, the last time I checked (which was admittedly not recently), Den Trinity still had the CA 57-rounders in stock for a decent price. I've never found the midcaps anywhere, though. If I remember right, the CA HK33/53s had some structural weakness around the receiver/cocking tube joint, but I think the 53 was redesigned with a somewhat better joint? It's been a long time since I looked into getting one.

[Lone_Bullet]

for general ease, the AR DPW.

 

I'm actually thinking of going to same way. 

Just put a 7" G&P MRP kit with 416c stock into a 3day bag, use grey camo which you could use on the streets and go CQB softing.

 

But then again where to get a 416c stock, VFC won't sell 'em separately. 

 

Tell us what route you took and how you organised your bag/outfit.!

[Skarclaw]

vote 552 - fairly uncommon, look cool and the folding stock will make it easier to fit into a pack or pannier. 

[Horsem4n]

yeah, i was thinking of the 552 because i knew it was a safe bet. i know the gun is good, i know the magazines i want are available and i know what to do to upgrade it. i just want the tippmann M4 because its the newfangled hotness and the HK because if there's one thing about me, i have an unshakable case of HK fever.

 

though my feelings will change day to day, right now im leaning towards the 552.

[FELDJAGER]

Hk53 is the correct choice.

[Horsem4n]

Well, I could buy a few of the high caps, cause I know where I can get some of those. But I reeeeeaaaallllllyyyy want the 1X0 round midcaps. Maybe I can bug spartan about them.

[blam360]

CA's brick and mortar shop still has HK53 mid caps for sale, 50% too last I checked. Happy to hook you up

[Horsem4n]

oh, thanks a lot! will definitely PM you when i get my tax return.

[BigAl]

My solution to the carrying a gun on a bike problem, an M4 with folding stock.

 

[DarkLite]

I have a CA HK53, sliding stock, standard foregrip and a RIS grip. 8x midcaps, deans, PDI W-hold and a 6.04mm tightbore. PM me.

[thatguy404]

All the wiring fit in the stock as normal al?

[Horsem4n]

Im just doing my best to avoid M4s. Never scrimmaged with one so far and i dont want to start yet.

Besides, i would go folding stock if i didnt have such a hard on for slither stocks.

[yee245]

Between the ICS and G&G SIG 552, I'd vote for the G&G. Yeah, it's more expensive, but I think it looks and feels much nicer. Sure, the ICS is marginally easier to disassemble since wiring isn't as integrated into the gun (if you've seen a internals/take down of the G&G, you'll know what I'm talking about), but otherwise, they're pretty much on par with each other for ease of getting at the gearbox. The G&G disassembles in a very similar way as the ICS in that you take out the pin, then slide the upper receiver forward and it's separated. I haven't taken the motor out of my ICS recently, so I forget if it's 2 or 4 Philips screws holding the grip to the gearbox, but I will mention the G&G requires hex wrenches for disassembly to get to the gearbox, including the 4 that are inside the pistol grip. Aside from those differences, I like the color and quality of the externals of the G&G, the selector switch is much smoother, the bolt is nice and solid, and as I understand, it's overall a much closer replica to the real steel.

 

They both have very limited battery space, and I will say, that if you're putting in a mosfet, you may need to get a little more creative with the wiring with the G&G, to the point of basically getting rid of G&G's stock wiring system.

 

I don't know if you have the opportunity to see them both in person (CT is probably too far for me to show you mine), but owning as many airsoft SIG rifles as I have, I have to say I like G&Gs the most.

 

Also, if you're a fan of sliding stocks, I'm doubtful the Laylax EBR stock would be compatible with either the G&G or ICS, but maybe with enough fiddling it could work.

[BigAl]

Im just doing my best to avoid M4s. Never scrimmaged with one so far and i dont want to start yet.

Besides, i would go folding stock if i didnt have such a hard on for slither stocks.

 

That is a sliding stock mate, it's a Magpul CTR on a Folding stock tube.

 

All the wiring fit in the stock as normal al?

 

The gun is forward wired in the MOE Handguard.  It could be wired to the stock tube but the wiring would be visible when folded.

[j33v3s]

With regards to getting a mosfet in the 552 - it's do-able and not too difficult to achieve.
I own a TM 552 which I understand is fairly similar internally to the G&G design - and fitted an extreme fire design AB mosfet complete with the two thinner trigger wires as well as two thicker ones going to the motor.

The way to do this is to remove the ribs from inside the lower portion of the handguard (I think it was just the ones towards the back, I left the one at the front), then you are able to fit two pairs of wires running either side of the gas block, one for the motor (so slightly beefier wires) and one for the trigger - I can't remember if the two motor wires fitted on one side, or if I split them. But I then had enough space for the two pairs to be terminated in deans (full size) inside the lower portion of the handguard, and connect to the mosfet, before wiring threaded into the top part of the handguard to connect to the battery.

 

The reason for the deans was to allow

a) Disassembly without having to un zip-tie everything

Able to put in a new mosfet much easier (just cut the supplied wiring shorter and connect deans, as opposed to unjoining and re-joining wiring within a tight space) or remove it entirely and put in a "bridge" wire loom to bypass needing a mosfet at all if needed

 

Since my mosfet had two integrated thermal fuses, I was able to remove the traditional glass fuse and large plastic shell as well.

 

This still didn't bypass the PITA way they incorporated the ambidextrous selector tho - and I think I heard the G&G is the same (i.e. have to hold both gears in place as you lower the gearbox in) - but then even my new KA SIG 556 is the same, so can't escape that

[yee245]

I have to disagree that the G&G is similar internally, especially regarding the wiring.

 

 

 

Ignore the fact that these are from a 553, since my 552's wiring is not the stock G&G wiring. The 552 and 553 are basically the same inside. Sure, wiring a mosfet in there probably isn't too hard, it's more a matter of determining how important the ability to easily separate the two receivers is, and then wiring it as needed.

 

Also, a disclaimer is that I don't own a TM 552, but I do own a JG 552, and TM 551 and 550s, so I am familiar with what those look like inside.

[Horsem4n]

Between the ICS and G&G SIG 552, I'd vote for the G&G. Yeah, it's more expensive, but I think it looks and feels much nicer. Sure, the ICS is marginally easier to disassemble since wiring isn't as integrated into the gun (if you've seen a internals/take down of the G&G, you'll know what I'm talking about), but otherwise, they're pretty much on par with each other for ease of getting at the gearbox. The G&G disassembles in a very similar way as the ICS in that you take out the pin, then slide the upper receiver forward and it's separated. I haven't taken the motor out of my ICS recently, so I forget if it's 2 or 4 Philips screws holding the grip to the gearbox, but I will mention the G&G requires hex wrenches for disassembly to get to the gearbox, including the 4 that are inside the pistol grip. Aside from those differences, I like the color and quality of the externals of the G&G, the selector switch is much smoother, the bolt is nice and solid, and as I understand, it's overall a much closer replica to the real steel.

 

They both have very limited battery space, and I will say, that if you're putting in a mosfet, you may need to get a little more creative with the wiring with the G&G, to the point of basically getting rid of G&G's stock wiring system.

 

I don't know if you have the opportunity to see them both in person (CT is probably too far for me to show you mine), but owning as many airsoft SIG rifles as I have, I have to say I like G&Gs the most.

 

Also, if you're a fan of sliding stocks, I'm doubtful the Laylax EBR stock would be compatible with either the G&G or ICS, but maybe with enough fiddling it could work.

i actually work at building 52 in chicopee MA, so if you ever find yourself there, you may see me.

i totally forgot about the laylax EBR stocks (had one for G3s) and that would look cool on the sig, but i do actually like sig folding stocks.

 

im honestly not worried about mosfet space because BTC spectre

 

That is a sliding stock mate, it's a Magpul CTR on a Folding stock tube.

 

 

The gun is forward wired in the MOE Handguard.  It could be wired to the stock tube but the wiring would be visible when folded.

what i mean is HK style slither stocks that sit pretty much flat up against the body until you need a stock and dont add any girth to the sides of the weapon.

 

all in all, it looks like i will be buying Darklite's HK to begin with, so i wont be getting the sig for a while. so when it comes time for that, ill probably go for the G&G if i have the money. its just that in the states, i can get the ICS for $250 which is significantly less than the G&G which is MAPed at 400. though, i have access to wholesalers, so maybe i can get it directly from 101 tech or valken when the time comes.

[j33v3s]

 - snip - 

 

Wow, didn't realise the hop was so locked down and it had those tabs to alleviate issues with wires running down the gearbox... although wondering what the longevity on those are (i.e. arching where they join similar to trigger contacts)

The bits in the handguard seem fairly similar though, the main bit the G&G doesn't have is the big separating piece splitting the whole handguard in half giving even more space.

 

However, not to derail the thread too much from it's purpose, yes, if you've got a spectre in there then that'll solve any issues of space given Lipos will fit in the handguard no issues at all. Although, the V3 version isn't out yet - would be interested when it does - as wouldn't mind playing with the extra features and can't fit any other computerized FETs in my 556.

 

In case you couldn't tell, I like the SIG platform anyway - looks nice & relatively unique - don't see that many of them on the sites I play at - only ever seen 4-5 others in the many years I've been playing. But then I don't see the HK53 that much either so that doesn't help if the deciding factor is rarity

Personally use the 556 as my main rifle now, mainly due to the M4 mag compatibility, much easier to get hold of and store in pouches. Plus, the slightly larger 120rnd M4 midcap doesn't look out of place on the short version (have it set up with both long and short front ends) whereas the 100rnd midcaps MAG made looked a bit naff on the "shorty" SIG rifles - leaving me with ~60rnd mags or hi-caps. Still keep my TM 552 as a sentimental piece - was my first AEG and the main go-to until I got the 556.

 

Now you're going for the HK, be prepared for the "wow, that MP5 is awesome"

[Horsem4n]

 

Now you're going for the HK, be prepared for the "wow, that MP5 is awesome"

lol, yeah, there will always be those people. but im getting the gun for me, i don't really care if people think its an MP5.

[yee245]

 

im honestly not worried about mosfet space because BTC spectre

 

all in all, it looks like i will be buying Darklite's HK to begin with, so i wont be getting the sig for a while. so when it comes time for that, ill probably go for the G&G if i have the money. its just that in the states, i can get the ICS for $250 which is significantly less than the G&G which is MAPed at 400. though, i have access to wholesalers, so maybe i can get it directly from 101 tech or valken when the time comes.

 

The main "issue" with a mosfet is mostly just the wiring, not so much the space. There's plenty of extra space in the bottom half of the handguard for most mosfet setups, since the battery can't go down there. If you want to bring more than 2 wires from the gearbox area to the battery area (like most mosfets do), you're going to need to put in a different system of connectors to keep the quick disassembly.

 

In hindsight, I should have picked up one of the two G&G Sig 552s that were on clearance (manufacturer refurbished, if I recall) at Airsoft Atlanta a little while back. They were each listed at $260. Instead, I bought my 553 from Airsplat when they were running their 35% off coupon back in November (and G&G was not excluded), so I paid like $257. More hindsight suggests I should have bought myself another 552 at that price as well... Hard to complain with that price.

 

Send me a message when/if you start looking at building a Sig 552. The new blowback JG Sigs look interesting. I don't know how similar they are in terms of assembly/disassembly compared to the TM/JG Sigs, but if they are at all similar, if the only thing deterring you from going with a TM-based Sig is ease of disassembly, they're really not that hard to take apart once you know what you're doing. Sure, the the G&G comes apart after taking out one pin, and the ICS separates after taking out the pin and pressing a button, but the JG (and I presume TM as well) can be separated by unscrewing only 3 screws. After that, they're all equally annoying, since you have to take apart the selector switches, then the grip, then the stock, then make sure you don't lose all the selector switch's gears. One of these days I need to remake that video on how to quickly separate the upper/lower of a TM/JG Sig. I think the last one I made demonstrated separating them, then reassembling in about a minute and a half. I unfortunately lost that video somewhere...

 

 

Wow, didn't realise the hop was so locked down and it had those tabs to alleviate issues with wires running down the gearbox... although wondering what the longevity on those are (i.e. arching where they join similar to trigger contacts)
The bits in the handguard seem fairly similar though, the main bit the G&G doesn't have is the big separating piece splitting the whole handguard in half giving even more space.

However, not to derail the thread too much from it's purpose, yes, if you've got a spectre in there then that'll solve any issues of space given Lipos will fit in the handguard no issues at all. Although, the V3 version isn't out yet - would be interested when it does - as wouldn't mind playing with the extra features and can't fit any other computerized FETs in my 556.

 

Keeping the thread derailed a little bit longer, but those contacts don't really run into the issue of arcing, to my knowledge. When the gun is assembled, those contacts are pressed against each other, so they act basically like an intermediate connector. There's no connecting and disconnecting of the circuit like you'd have in a trigger. My concern is about how much current they can handle, or if they're a bottleneck.

 

In the handguard, there is very little space. I haven't compared too closely, but I would suspect that the G&G is a little narrower, and with the plastic probably being thicker, there isn't as much space in there as the TM. The TM (and JG) can fit a standard mini type 8.4V NiMH (if I recall, the inner barrel is exposed next to the battery "holder" as well), but good luck trying to get that same battery into the G&G. It's just not going to happen. Really, in my mind, beyond "wires going to a fuse box in the handguard area" I don't think there's all that much similarity between the TM and the G&G.