Breach Bang Clear: Airsoft as a supplementary training tool

[uscmCorps]

My buddy, Jeff Takeda, wrote an article for the military blog "Breach Bang Clear" about Airsoft and using it as a supplementary training tool for real steel training. The content is mostly that which he and I present to potential dealers and dept procurement officers on PTS' behalf at trade shows like Shot Show as well as just trying to break the walls of stigma associated with Airsoft in the RS community. Jeff wrote the article, and I provided most of the pics and video (except for the PTS MKM promo piece which I had no part of).

 

http://www.breachbangclear.com/site/component/content/article/10-blog/700-spring-training-week-using-airsoft-for-training.html

 

Feedback has been mostly positive so far.

[Katotaka]

tl;dr

 

It's always good to see someone puts his effort to do the break the wall thing.

[uscmCorps]

It's more about educating people about using something as a tool rather than just jumping on the band wagon of hate without first understanding what it is you're arbitrarily hating.

[Skarclaw]

Gonna put it out there, for the sake of debate and all that;

 

I really don't think that the "wall" between RS and airsoft is one that needs to be broken. I think associating airsoft with firearms training is more fuel for the fire for reactionary legislators. 

 

By all means let "LEO" types find thier use for them but I think its something that the "airsoft community" should steer well clear of.

 

Emphasis should always, always, be on fun, safe, healthy hobby imo lest we find it for "LEO use only"

[Isamu]

 

Emphasis should always, always, be on fun, safe, healthy hobby imo lest we find it for "LEO use only"

 

 

Totally agree with you, sir

[hwagan]

Something has definitely changed, I commented on the article on the FB page and I've had no abuse at all, which is nice.

[Skarclaw]

I'll keep stirring the pot... why do some airsofters feel like they need to justify their hobby, and/or themselves to the "real steel"/ armed forces / LEO "community"? Personally I couldn't give a *fruitcage* what they think - even if they are some hsld bearded superstar.

 

from the facebook comments... nail head hit..

 

"It's a great way to get a feel for a rifle's ergonomics without actually buying one. It's also a great way to decide what kind of accessories and attachments you like, where to put them, and how you interact with them. It's basically a cheap alternative to acting out all your most immature gun fantasies."

[uscmCorps]

 

Gonna put it out there, for the sake of debate and all that;

 

I really don't think that the "wall" between RS and airsoft is one that needs to be broken. I think associating airsoft with firearms training is more fuel for the fire for reactionary legislators. 

 

By all means let "LEO" types find thier use for them but I think its something that the "airsoft community" should steer well clear of.

 

Emphasis should always, always, be on fun, safe, healthy hobby imo lest we find it for "LEO use only"

 

 

I understand your concerns. It's probably more about cultural differences and how firearms as a whole are perceived here vs in the UK and other parts of the world. The blog is more focused on the US community where firearms are common and alternative options for training are sought after. And the article is written as an educational means for both LEOs to use airsoft for training as well as for law abiding civilians to use for marksmanship and possibly self defense training. I know several agencies, instructors, competitive shooters and others who airsoft as a supplemental training tool.

 

Also, with occasional and very unfortunate occurrence of people being accidentally shot in the US for treating a toy gun … as a toy … it isn't the worst idea for a parent to reinforce at a young age firearms safety even with airsoft.

 

But I understand and respect your opinion though I see matters differently.

[Skarclaw]

It puts a strong case forward and there are clear benefits for PTS... not so sure about training as I'm utterly unqualified to comment....

 

But what are the benefits to airsoft as a recreational hobby? 

 

edit:

 

I cba to beat around the bush... just dialectics at the end of the day:

 

- This seems like a case of PTS chasing that golden goose of the govt contract (I may be a bit cynical here)

 

- Its interesting that you use the word stigma in your OP & I refer you to my post above yours. Might we have a case of  "Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier"?

 

Thanks

[uscmCorps]

It puts a strong case forward and there are clear benefits for PTS... not so sure about training as I'm utterly unqualified to comment....

 

But what are the benefits to airsoft as a recreational hobby? 

 

edit:

 

I cba to beat around the bush... just dialectics at the end of the day:

 

- This seems like a case of PTS chasing that golden goose of the govt contract (I may be a bit cynical here)

 

- Its interesting that you use the word stigma in your OP & I refer you to my post above yours. Might we have a case of  "Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier"?

 

Thanks

 

I think you're reading into things a bit much. PTS has always been a proponent of trying to cater to all potential sales demographics including for training. That has been high on the agenda since the beginning, though the bread and butter has always been the airsoft consumer, be it hobbyist, Milsimmer or other. PTS, is not the first, nor is it the last to have that agenda. That is a common desire by most airsoft manufacturers.

 

The original comment regarding "stigma" is simply a statement of fact and not a mindset I personally share. I was born, raised and grew up in Hong Kong. I had very little access to real firearms during my early and teen years except for the few times I tried it during family trips to the UK and US. It wasn't until I moved to the US for University in the early 90s did that start to change. I have been an avid airsofter for over 30 years and still enjoy it. However, I have seen a large mix of opinions in the firearms, law enforcement and military community over the years regarding airsoft. Some like it. Some don't. Some are curious. Some are skeptics. But for the most part up until a couple years ago, the mere mention of airsoft in the real steel community was immediately met with criticism, heckling, and generally large amounts of associated negativity towards it. "Stigma" was, and still is very apropos. There continues to be a somewhat widespread underlying negativity towards airsoft in the gun community. It's certainly getting better recently as hwagan pointed out. More gun-people are changing their opinion of it.

 

And it's great that you enjoy it as a hobby and game. I do to. I and many others also use it for other reasons as well and I don't see anything wrong with that. You ask what such an article can benefit airsoft. I think it can. It points out that airsoft can be a positive thing to people hell bent on seeing it as a negative. These same people who may change their opinions on airsoft are also people who might fight for it to not be banned in the future. What can the contents of the article itself do for airsoft? For you, maybe nothing. Maybe something. I know a lot of people who look at airsoft as a sport/hobby, but in a different way. They see the benefits as it pertains to basic marksmanship. As a matter of fact I know a lot of RS three gun shooters who see airsoft as beneficial for similar reasons. I know several grand masters who use airsoft as an inexpensive training tool for first shot accuracy. One of those guys uses a TM 5.1 daily. Upon the buzzer he draws and has to hit a reduced bulls eye target at a certain yardage within a short time. He does this 100 times in a row. If he misses the bulls eye or exceeds the allotted time, even if he's on his 99th repetition, he'll start again till he gets a clean run of 100 reps. The dude is literally a machine. The practice he gets from it pays off considerably in RS competitions so much so other shooters are doing it too. So the question is, can an airsofter benefit from using airsoft in a similar manner as described in the article? Absolutely. If you were to participate in airsoft IPSC you would see benefits. If you were to play as most airsofters do, in force on force games, if I had to transition from my primary to my pistol, I'd see benefits of this. If I had to track multiple targets or drive the gun to a new target, I would see benefits. The key is to seeing airsoft as a tool. For you it's a tool to have fun in your hobby. For someone else it's a tool for the same, or for potentially something else. That does not detract from your own enjoyment of it simply because someone else sees the good in it in a different way.

 

Apologies if you took offense by my previous post. None was intended. I write as frankly as I would normally speak to someone. There's stigma associated with airsoft by the gun crowd. But that is in large part due to ignorance about what it is. It's a tool and it means different things to different groups of people. It can be a tool used for fun in a game. If someone was inclined and open minded, it can be used for supplemental training when used in the appropriate context.

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Just like with all things in life, there are swings and roundabouts, upsides and downsides.

 

Airsoft being used by LEO in the US, UK etc could very well improve the scene. Police might get into the hobby (I know a LOT of bobbies in the UK are airsofters) and that means the average joe pulled over with a RIF in his boot would probably have a better experience. It would add legitimacy.

 

On the other hand as soon as redtops or the Daily Mail get a whiff of it, they could very easily come out with poorly researched articles, as is their wont to do.

 

If LEO training was to adopt airsoft as a primary training tool I could certainly see it entrenched, harder to legislate against etc.

[Skarclaw]

uscm -

 

firstly no not offended - you'd have to call me something really nasty or something for that to happen.

 

in turn

 

- fair enough, no arguments there

 

- so what? Why give a *suitcase* what they think? I certainly don't! There seems to be a shitload of ego's flying around in the "RS community" and quite honestly I think sycophantic airsofters help inflate this. its an abusive relationship  edit: I mean why bother commenting on RS facebook groups etc etc? Some may remember Havoc_Man and his attempts at fellating virtually the entire lightfighter board. Cringeworthy stuff. 

 

- Personally I prefer "toy" to "tool". No issues with people using it as training per say but I notice that you've written quite alot on the benefits of airsoft rather then the benefits to airsoft. When cops find an airsoft collection at the home of a high school shooter I'd hope the media refer to them as toys rather then "training aids". Whilst airsoft obviously has some cross over with the real stuff I hope it isn't militarized. I wouldn't want a nutjob like James Yeager anywhere near airsoft! And you can bet even if the RS community (which of course isn't a cohesive group) adopts airsoft when push comes to shove in the media or the legislative

chambers they will drop it like a hot potato...

 

in the end whatever the merits I think airsoft as a training tool should come from those who are training rather then from airsofters. I know I'm not qualified to comment on what constitutes good training and what doesn't - leave it to pro's. 

[Leon Kennedy]

Good article. I know I used my airsoft replicas to build muscle memory when switching from 4:00 to appendix IWB carry. A mistake with my real firearm would have been disastrous, especially since I cannot practice at home due to living in an apartment with tenants on each side of me and no safe direction. However, I'm able to use my replica to build up some good habits and get my brain wired the way I want it, and it's definitely paid off whenever I hit the range. However, I look at it as "pre-training" of sorts: something to get me in the mindset when the real training comes, and not a substitute for it.

 

However, I think it's the responsibility of the end user to decide how they use airsoft. For example, I treat my airsoft guns like my real ones. I don't "play" with them, and unless it's on the field, I handle them the same way. If I wouldn't do it with my RS, I won't do it with airsoft. However, if you like playing with your replicas, there's nothing wrong with that. I just personally take the responsibility of ensuring that my habits are the same because the consequences of accidentally breaking habit with my RS is extremely dangerous. YMMV.

[Curly68]

Not a bad article at all, perhaps it should have mentioned Travis Haley and his vid of using airsoft as a training aid (though he was showing TM Recoils!). Nice to having someone high profile extolling the virtues of airsoft.

[bladerunner168]

I wouldn't want a nutjob like James Yeager anywhere near airsoft! 

 

Too late!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xR8BEQs0sw

 

Back on topic 

 

Well written article but as Mr Corps stated, probably written for an American audience.

 

Airsoft is many things to many people, there is no right or wrong method to participate, unless you are being a massive bell end.   

[3vi1-D4n]

LOL guess this discussion brings in the extent of the crossover between training and gaming.

 

Airsoft weapons have a lot of benefit for use in training, but it depends also on applicability in which type of warfare training. 

 

My old infantry unit used airsoft for a FIBUA training day for about half a platoon, which was seen by the soldiers to be one of the better training days in the units recent history.  Subsequently it was never re-run because:

- it was unconventional training, and hard to tick the box for meeting training objectives and quotas.

- it was too much fuss to organise; army supply chain was not utilised so it was seen as off-the-books training.

- weapon systems used were not compatible with our issued weapon systems

 

But many agreed the event demonstrated that it was a very good training aid. 

 

The thing with airsoft is the lack of sound which contributes to the stress of firing a firearm in a battle, and the lack of effect (pain/whizz/bullet impact etc).  But within jungle/bush warfare/close protection/CRW, there is much applicability, thought training scenario and operating parameters will need to be defined for the scenario.

 

 

However once "gaming" (i.e. notion of entertainment) is introduced it becomes more the idea of what we call "milsim".  In my experience training and gaming needs to have a very clear borders drawn.  While the only way to improve in gaming is by training and following good protocols, the issue is that most airsofters don't see training as a part of gaming, hence why we have a lot of hate from airsofters about following rigid military protocols in scenario games. 

 

Similarly military pers who skirmish together also gripe about airsofters as they lack the understanding of basic protocol to put up a cohesive fight in a game. 

 

The other side of the coin is that in the past RS shooters seen airsoft as toys and promote bad intentions and weapon drills (and the bad press associated with the effect of). For military folks, airsoft is a bit of fun, but it does set unrealistic expectations in a firefight and promotes a "loose trigger finger" culture and lack of proper protocol which keeps the green machine going.

 

Hence, from a training perspective, if armies and LEOs can get over the procurement/supply chain issues and training objective issues, airsoft can be a very useful tool.

[uscmCorps]

- Personally I prefer "toy" to "tool". No issues with people using it as training per say but I notice that you've written quite alot on the benefits of airsoft rather then the benefits to airsoft. When cops find an airsoft collection at the home of a high school shooter I'd hope the media refer to them as toys rather then "training aids". Whilst airsoft obviously has some cross over with the real stuff I hope it isn't militarized. I wouldn't want a nutjob like James Yeager anywhere near airsoft! And you can bet even if the RS community (which of course isn't a cohesive group) adopts airsoft when push comes to shove in the media or the legislative

chambers they will drop it like a hot potato...

 

in the end whatever the merits I think airsoft as a training tool should come from those who are training rather then from airsofters. I know I'm not qualified to comment on what constitutes good training and what doesn't - leave it to pro's. 

In my experience the media and legislation in general tends to latch onto whatever hot button topic that pushes their political agenda. Airsoft/toy guns is occasionally one of them. What we have seen actually be beneficial though is public education and even educating those people who seek to remove airsoft completely. That's a huge reason why in spite of all the efforts anti-airsoft legislators here in the USA have been making lately, we've had a lot success in countering that offensive. It's not 100% a win for us but it's not the complete destruction of the hobby that they seek. In my opinion, educating more people about what airsoft is rather than what they think it is based on their knee jerk reactions has for the most part been beneficial to airsoft. This article contributes to that..

 

The author of the article, though he admits to being an airsofter, he's also a US Marine, did some contracting work, has over 15 years in law enforcement, as a patrol officer, a detective and as a SWAT officer. He's been in shootings. I think he's more than qualified to talk about the merits and applicability of using airsoft for training as he succinctly outlines in the article. I myself, take a lot of classes. I participate in competitive shooting. While RS started out for me years ago a way to appreciate airsoft, at a certain point it switched for me and now airsoft is a means for me to apply what I learn in RS be it against static targets, or targets trying to shoot back at me. I often take note in firearms course how people shooting around barricades reloading behind cover etc, it's very rare that I see them actually use their cover properly. They often over expose themselves when shooting, take too long to make the shot, don't use angles that well, or reload in what we'd consider out in the open. Why? Because they've never really had the sense of a two way range. There's a lot to be learned with airsoft, paintball, Simunitions and UTMs in that kind of learning environment. Now, all that said, there are clear limitations to airsoft as a training tool. Some of those limitations are unique to airsoft, some are common to all the training tools. As one of my favorite mentors Pat McNamara (former Delta) said in a class, until you're actually slinging life taking lead at one another, you will always be limited by the tool. Because at the end of the day, you know that training tool won't (well it shouldn't anyway) take your life. The mentality is simply not the same. Understand the limitations of the tool, maximize it, and take what you need from it but keep it all in context.

 

Not a bad article at all, perhaps it should have mentioned Travis Haley and his vid of using airsoft as a training aid (though he was showing TM Recoils!). Nice to having someone high profile extolling the virtues of airsoft.

Actually, when Jeff and I first started doing videos and doing pitches for PTS a few months later, Travis came out with his vid about airsoft for training. We kinda kicked ourselves for being a little slow in getting our material together and essentially getting scooped, but in retrospect, we realized it really was a blessing. Because Travis was someone still very much in the RS community limelight who came out and pointed out something many dared not say. Because of him, it's actually been easier for us to broach this topic with people than it was before.

 

Too late!

 

Back on topic 

 

Well written article but as Mr Corps stated, probably written for an American audience.

 

Airsoft is many things to many people, there is no right or wrong method to participate, unless you are being a massive bell end.   

LOL. He was very patient with me. James is actually very much for force on force. He uses simunitions and sees merit in airsoft for similar reasons. And he's not alone. There are a lot of instructors out there who feel the same, they're just not vocal about it.

 

LOL guess this discussion brings in the extent of the crossover between training and gaming.

 

Airsoft weapons have a lot of benefit for use in training, but it depends also on applicability in which type of warfare training. 

 

My old infantry unit used airsoft for a FIBUA training day for about half a platoon, which was seen by the soldiers to be one of the better training days in the units recent history.  Subsequently it was never re-run because:

- it was unconventional training, and hard to tick the box for meeting training objectives and quotas.

- it was too much fuss to organise; army supply chain was not utilised so it was seen as off-the-books training.

- weapon systems used were not compatible with our issued weapon systems

 

But many agreed the event demonstrated that it was a very good training aid. 

 

The thing with airsoft is the lack of sound which contributes to the stress of firing a firearm in a battle, and the lack of effect (pain/whizz/bullet impact etc).  But within jungle/bush warfare/close protection/CRW, there is much applicability, thought training scenario and operating parameters will need to be defined for the scenario.

 

 

However once "gaming" (i.e. notion of entertainment) is introduced it becomes more the idea of what we call "milsim".  In my experience training and gaming needs to have a very clear borders drawn.  While the only way to improve in gaming is by training and following good protocols, the issue is that most airsofters don't see training as a part of gaming, hence why we have a lot of hate from airsofters about following rigid military protocols in scenario games. 

 

Similarly military pers who skirmish together also gripe about airsofters as they lack the understanding of basic protocol to put up a cohesive fight in a game. 

 

The other side of the coin is that in the past RS shooters seen airsoft as toys and promote bad intentions and weapon drills (and the bad press associated with the effect of). For military folks, airsoft is a bit of fun, but it does set unrealistic expectations in a firefight and promotes a "loose trigger finger" culture and lack of proper protocol which keeps the green machine going.

 

Hence, from a training perspective, if armies and LEOs can get over the procurement/supply chain issues and training objective issues, airsoft can be a very useful tool.

Excellent points!

[Roland1014]

$0.02

 

All of the people that I know who hate airsoft do so purely on a basis of the players. I even find myself thinking on some days that the game would be better off without a good portion of the player base. My main reason is Cod/bb hose kids and hard core milsimmers. I can understand buying real gear, I can understand having to make your really *fruitcage* expensive gear look EXACTLY like the picture of NSW, SF, or Rangers. So buy NVGs, buy Crapstema (I will only laugh at you), and forever indebt yourself to LBT or Crye or Eagle Industries. That's fine, go right ahead.

 

But when you

a)Spew OPERATOR in every sentence and have not been/will not be/are so *fruitcage* fat that you are incapable of military service, I'mma be mad (looking at you, GMR and like groups)

b)Rub in in other people's faces that they don't have/can't afford/aren't willing to buy said expensive gear, I'mma be mad

 

Do I own some highish end tier gear? Yes. I have a polar star, I have tactical tailor, I have a ten speed. My helmet is super cool with flashing things and whizzbits galore.

 

Do I smirk and put my chin up when new kids and kids wearing alice or running mags in pockets point at me and whisper to each other? No. I tell them that I, too, started with alice, and that you can have awesome looking gear for less than a CP JPC (my chest rig and hydro are the new condor modular rig). I explain that they can easily get a rig and pouches and camo for less than a new WE pistol.

 

I realize that hypocrisy runs rampant, that I taunt CoD kids, chuckle when someone has a drop leg holster on their knee, or complain about full auto/hicaps when I can run my semi-only p* at faster rofs when I'm angry. However, at the same time I try to help new players as much as possible; I'll do free spring swaps when your new elite force shoots too hot (just pay me in pizza).

 

/rant

[Leon Kennedy]

 

But when you

a)Spew OPERATOR in every sentence and have not been/will not be/are so *fruitcage* fat that you are incapable of military service, I'mma be mad (looking at you, GMR and like groups)

b)Rub in in other people's faces that they don't have/can't afford/aren't willing to buy said expensive gear, I'mma be mad

 

 

 

This times a trillion.

[Azubi]

I've genuinely never seen anyone at a milsim game abuse someone for not spending thousands and thousands of £/$/€/AED on kit.

 

I have, however, seen plenty of snobbery and abuse thrown in the direction of people who have decided to spend significant amounts of money on their kit when attending a 'normal' skirmish. People make negative assumptions about that person simply because they have decided to spend some of their hard earned cash on the kitchen want to.

 

A good example of this: I was at a rather popular FIBUA type site that was my regular for a time and one week I need up playing with a group all day and we had a good laugh, enjoyed the games and praised each other's gameplay throughout the day. I was wearing some ratty cammies, facemask and a pistol belt.

 

A couple of weeks later, I turned up in my Blue forces kit, multicam'd up to the eyeballs, and this same group was saying rather nasty things about me based on my kit. They were coming out with stuff about how I probably won't take hits and they were going to report me for having a hot rifle, and I was this and that, etc.

[thatguy404]

Reverse snobbery, Fortunately my local I don't see too much of this B.S.

On topic.
Airsoft as a training tool, has it's placed, providing used correctly and treated as such.

 

As mentioned above, I can imagine it's difficult to keep a group of LEO/Superdooper operators on track during breaks when playing with what they'd class as toys...

[Danke]

I say airsoft is an excellent tool for all. And anything that brings it further into the light of day improves the situation.

 

From what I've seen with the typical real steel shooter who'd refinded their stance and has got the modern pistol handling and drills down to reflex/muscle memory that it all goes out the window almost instantlythe first time when they've got an airsoft pistol and someone shooting at them force on force.

 

Forget the modern isocoles stance and sight picture and the rest. If they have to shoot one handed behind their back to return fire they will. So it piles a tonne of stress into the working situation. And that's good. I like the stress that gets put on you in game.

 

Chances are pretty good that not every actual shooter will then jump into airsoft with both feet but there will be an exchange of mutual respect. I know the common sterotype of the careless trigger finger airsofter who infuritates the shooters but there are just as many fudds inside the real fiream community with their own bad habits and flat out wrong ideas.

[Mike2514]

Great article. I've used airsoft for close protection training where the mission is primarily to get away from any threat and it works quite well if you are unable to use live rounds, and it works very well when training force on force with pistols. I think some people on both sides of the fence get a little confused though when it comes to the suggestion of how airsoft should be used. Many times I've seen airsofters say that airsoft is good enough to train with for real firearms and then they say no more. Then you get the live shooters assuming they mean that airsoft can replace live rounds down range as a training tool and this is simply not the case. Used as an addition to live rounds, it can become effective, but as others have said, and those of us who have shot live, nothing compares to shooting live in terms of noise levels and adrenaline. 

[Hardcore1-6]

Having just stepped off a CQC pistol range - I was thinking the exact same thing.

You can have a solid point of aim, but replicating a moving, rapid or small target and getting the immediate effect at those short distances that you require repeatedly is something that airsoft unfortunately can't replicate.
 

You loose the recoil, noise and heavier action and ammunition of the pistol.
You can however get set on muscle memory, aiming points, tracking targets and physiology of shooting. As a training tool, it's excellent - but care must be taken to mitigate slack drills as a result of the differences from real steel to airsoft.

[GI0VANNI]

Security instructor from 2012 awarded by spanish CNP: 19086 for legal, "técnico profesional" and "protección y seguridad" that means I can teach but firearms training and self defense, also security officer, close protection officer, explosives security officer (I think you do not have this in UK) security director (once you get a university degree you can get this as a post-grade), have obtained the badges (equivalent to your badges, they are not "implemented" in Spain yet but can get the lessons) for all but k9, cctv, port security, prisons security and nuclear and critical installations.

 

NEVER EVER have seen airsoft as a training tool, it is a recreational sport and MAY be used as muscle memory enforcer the same way as unloaded guns but: no recoil, no bang and no shinning spent cartridges means not realistic, like simunition RAM and so.

 

If you want to train do it with unloaded real weapons, not more or less accurate toys and please don´t try to avoid the security gap needed to operate RS with lower dangerous toys. OR go to the Check Republic and the like and you will be able to handle loaded auto weapons not facing sky, floor or targets, but fellow people (the firing range security rules are a bit relaxed there).

Shall you hire a 100.000h trained airsofter or a 100h trained gun user? because if you prefer the first I will gladly send you hundreds of CV with no  experience at all with real guns but years spent with toys. Sorry but if larping would prepare for a orc hunting or tracking real life would be so boring...

 

I take that training with RS you can save money by airsoft but the same money saved is realism lost.

finally liked this part:

There are scaled down Airsoft training targets used for ISPC and other shooting sports.  The targets are scaled to visually appear the same size as the real target at true distance. For example one of these scaled down IPSC size targets placed at 9 feet presents the same sight picture perspective as a full sized IPSC target placed at 23 feet approximately. 

So decided to give you a example: