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G&P FRS recoil system

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Hi guys, sorry if this has already got a thread elsewhere- I did look and couldn't see one.

 

http://www.gp-web.com/en/productspop.php?pid=3697

 

Looks like g&p has a recoil series of rifles on its way, not sure on what system (or if it's their own, perhaps someone else has an idea from the bottom picture?).

Could be interesting though, nice receivers too- well, apart from the hideous markings that is :P

 

Found a video here:

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There's five models in all. Judging by the way that they have different lower receivers I'm guessing that these fit a standard V2 lower receiver. All of them have the horrible Skull Frog markings, which is a shame.

 

What sort of tech is this based on, then? Tremors? It doesn't look much like my Recoil Shock but I could be wrong; perhaps more ERG-esque? The 'Free Float' name sounds oddly reminiscent of the Suspended Recoil System ARS made for the Recoil Shock. No mention of bolt lock or release, I note.

 

I wish G&P had made ambidextrous receivers for the Recoil Shock rather than made a whole new gun, but I'll reserve judgement until I see how they shoot.

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Hardly anything going on there. About as much shake as the pneumatic blowback G&G has on their guns exhibits. i.e. not very much. Would be keen to see more information on this though -- could just be a demo to show the mechanism moving, but the weight in the stock isn't in yet? No idea... hope more info comes out soon.

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The disappointing thing is that we have three big airsoft co.'s all now producing the same thing - M4 variant AEGs that have a recoil-type effect. So it's all a bit 'emperors new clothes' at the moment for me with lots of resources being poured into making everyone buy what they've already got, but just <slightly> different. Having handled Marui ERGs, yes they are very nice and the non-M4 ones they produce at least stretch the imagination a bit however where's the variation - the recoil engines look generic enough to adapt to any stock type so when do we get the AK (yes I know TM do a shorty), full stock AR platform or a Thompson or MP40 that might tempt me and many of my friends.

 

Don't get me wrong - if I was buying my first M4 again, it would be an ERG. However, I've got three of them in a box already. And I've already done the vinyl-cassette-minidisc-cd-download thing: let's see an M14, M16A1, AK47, M1A1 and then I might get a little bit excited.

 

I know that this will see the next post being "don't like, don't buy" but the point is that we need to see some variation here, in what's already a crowded market.

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It really comes down to something as simple as .. if people aren't buying it, they won't be making them. G&P's been churning out AR variants for years, non-stop, new ones every few months, and yet they keep on coming, so clearly there's a demand somewhere, also the sport of airsoft is growing all around the world, so these may well be many's first AR.

 

As much as there are tons of AR AEGs made by various companies, there's still yet one made that is "perfect", with TM next-gen (+BTC) / Magpul ERG (?) being the closest imo as they are the only two with both recoil and a bolt stop, but some aspect of realistic handling is still missing, something that the mythical Real Sword M4's been suggested to be attempting, so there's still plenty of room for the AR AEG to expand into. Helped by releases like this, when it becomes a norm that all AR variants are expected to have recoil, then it's only natural for others to start ensuring EBB to be a standard requirement for AEGs regardless of gun model, which can only be a good thing. 

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I agree with blobface; M4s sell well so it's not exactly surprising that KWA and G&P - both already prolific AR-15 makers - have chosen to build recoil AR-15 variants. I've never even seen a Recoil Shock Kalashnikov despite the fact that TM make three different variants; like blobface says, the demand simply isn't there to invest enormous amounts of money retooling even for less-popular weapons, let alone oddball weapons that don't sell well anyway. I don't see many WW2 airsoft guns at the skirmishes I attend, so I can't conclude the TM are missing out on a huge untapped market by not redeveloping the Thompson or MP40 with Recoil Shock internals.

 

The existing guns are expensive enough as it is without having to subsidise unpopular siblings. That's especially true when with some parts swapped around one could construct a reasonable facsimile of large number of variants (M16A4, AK105, & G36E, for example) based on the existing platforms.

 

I expect that eventually we'll see recoil become much more widespread, but in the interim like most new(ish) technologies it remains restricted to the most popular platforms. How long has it been since Systema released a replica of a new gun?

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From what I understand the G&P recoil system is a drop in to work with a regular AEG. Not entirely sure how given the uniqueness of the rear of a standard AEG lower receiver, but that is what they told us in a meeting not long ago. It's a pretty cool idea given that it'll give your gun a little more feeling than a regular sewing machine if that's something that floats your boat. But it does not have a functioning bolt catch. If the mag runs out, it'll continue to fire.

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From what I understand the G&P recoil system is a drop in to work with a regular AEG. Not entirely sure how given the uniqueness of the rear of a standard AEG lower receiver, but that is what they told us in a meeting not long ago. It's a pretty cool idea given that it'll give your gun a little more feeling than a regular sewing machine if that's something that floats your boat. But it does not have a functioning bolt catch. If the mag runs out, it'll continue to fire.

Hmm, these "drop in" ideas really seem to have a very limited success rate. The only drop in system that seems viable at the moment is the Polar* fusion engine, and I'd be (personally) wary about dropping that into anything other than a VFC body.

 

I'm really surprised that G&P have gone in that direction rather than simply making a company decision to transfer over to what is becoming the "next generation" of AEG.....maybe they're just trying to maximise financial return on their existing product investment by doing a staged transition......

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The standard V2 has become essentially public domain. Not so for the current crop of next gens. Both Marui and Yih Kai (which OEMs for KWA and some of PTS' products) have international patents on their respective systems. G&P would have to R&D their own version of the next generation system since they're trying to transition into a company that stays above board. This is their effort to do so.

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The standard V2 has become essentially public domain. Not so for the current crop of next gens. Both Marui and Yih Kai (which OEMs for KWA and some of PTS' products) have international patents on their respective systems. G&P would have to R&D their own version of the next generation system since they're trying to transition into a company that stays above board. This is their effort to do so.

I'm not really sure I understand your point. It seems like you're saying that G&P developing their own Recoil system would be a big task, when so far (outside of TM) three other companies have done just that, Lonex, Bolt and KWA.....I'd be surprised to hear that Bolt or Lonex have more money for R&D than G&P.....so if they can do it, why can't G&P?

 

More my point was indicating the lack of standardisation in airsoft manufacture, so when someone says they have a drop in this or that.....I wonder which products will really accept their offerings.

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I think what he means is that TM and KWA with international patents on their systems in effect can enforce them in Europe and the US in particular. In other words you'd end up with retailers being served with cease and desist orders on products that use either system which haven't been licensed by the patent holders. So it could be seen to be in G&Ps best interest to R&D their own system rather than pay for licensing rights to their competitors.

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I'm all for standardization. Doing so would generate greater acceptance of a platform (IMO). However I'm not sure if Yih Kai is inclined to license their system to other OEMs (though I certainly can't speak for them so who knows). And we all know TM generally doesn't care for anything outside the boarders of Japan. What G&P and certain other manufacturers (such as the ones you note) have done is a version of an EBB AEG with essentially the same basic functions as that of a standard AEG. I guess what I'm saying is that it would have been cool if they had come up with their own version of a SOPMOD/ERG with functional bolt catch and a realistic trigger.

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I still take great pride in making first gen tremors work perfectly.

Even so, 99% of times these things are more trouble then they are worth.

 

Well, more of these there are, the more us gunsmiths will have work first fixing them, then disabling them.

Double profit!

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I still take great pride in making first gen tremors work perfectly.

Even so, 99% of times these things are more trouble then they are worth.

 

Well, more of these there are, the more us gunsmiths will have work first fixing them, then disabling them.

Double profit!

That, and the sale of cheap spring pistols increases :)

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If TM Next-Gens became the standard AEG, I would be extremely pleased and thoroughly impressed. However, this requires price reduction and more after market parts.

I think a lot of the reason why the current standard AEGs became, well, standard is because TM's non EBB line was cloned so fiercely. If next gen AEGs were cloned and sold at a cheaper price, then there would be a great incentive to purchase them. I know I would pick one up.

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There are NexGen clones on the market already; ARMY Armament's R43 is just $155 at eHobbyAsia, whereas the TM SOCOM it's a clone of is $429.

 

That said, I'm not 100% sure if ARMY got around to fitting bolt catches to the R43. They're all ready for the parts, I just don't think they have them included.

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Looks similar to the tremors kit which destroyed your internals quickly. Looking forwards to seeing how these perform

I mean, the mechanism of operation of the Tremors kit is pretty much identical to that of the TM NextGen M4s, the Bolt Recoil guns and from the looks of things, this G&P Recoil system too.

 

Essentially, there's a heavy, spring-loaded weight in the stock tube, with a rod that goes into the gearbox casing, and is pushed back by the piston during the last ~20% of the piston's travel.

There are minor differences between all of them, but the principal is identical all throughout.

 

The Modify Tremors recoil kits only had the reliability issues that they did because the supplied springs for the recoil-weight was too weak/soft, meaning that the recoil weight didn't return quickly enough, causing the piston to engage the recoil-rod while the recoil weight was still moving forwards, which significantly increased the stress on the piston, gears and bearings leading to failure.

 

The Tremors rifle that I built ended up being reliable for at least five thousand cycles after fitting a stronger return spring for the recoil weight, but I lost contact with the owner after that.

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