The middle ground / not quite milsim

[Skarclaw]

 

As me and CKinnerley discussed here there seems a lack of games which are not an "every-day" skirmish but not a full on milsim either. I've nothing against Milsim games and I'd happily give it ago, although currently I can only skirmish about once a month and when I do I like to shoot at people, mostly.

 

So here's my criteria for what I consider to be an "ideal" game:

 

ammunition restrictions! 

MOD property / good urban site

No uniform restrictions other then greens vs tans

No giving or taking orders within a gameplay context

No standing guard or talking to "locals"

Preferably rolling gameplay over 8 -36 hours

 

 

Anybody know any game / site operators that do this?

 

Does anybody agree with me? What's your ideal game?

 

[FireKnife]

Sounds a bit like 'Filmsim' to me.

 

A lot of WW2 / VN games end up like this, with more going on than milsim but not the typical hi-cap rushes of the typical day.

 

However as for arranging such a game well it might be better to see if a nearby site to you would run such a thing as often they are sparodic at best (like some milsim sites / events) and all over the country.

 

As for agreeing with it I would love to see such an event, maybe with a twist or something to keep the ideas flowing (if indoors perhaps tie in a police theme given that it is easy to do with civvy clothes yet able to distinguish teams, if on MOD property perhaps an 'alternate Cold War' idea that is all about ammo limits, fighting and a touch of diplomacy to tie it all in etc) but the main issue would be getting the people to play it and making it feasible. I know that some sites run such games but they are again maybe once of twice a year and usually have a specific theme or extras on top of what you have mentioned.

 

All in all it is something I would like to see more of too and if anyone that attends such events regularly can point a few out that would be great too.

 

'FireKnife'

[PureSilver]

If you haven't played at Longmoor, I highly recommend you do. It is, obviously, an MOD training site and very, very impressive to play at. FCS put games on there regularly, with teams usually split between 'black' and 'camouflage', ammunition restricted to 300rds (600rds for support weapons) secondaries excepted, no hierarchy, no stupid guard duty or anything like that - basically a regular skirmish but more organised. They don't do weekenders (that I'm aware of) but there are occasional night games.

[Skarclaw]

If you haven't played at Longmoor, I highly recommend you do. It is, obviously, an MOD training site and very, very impressive to play at. FCS put games on there regularly, with teams usually split between 'black' and 'camouflage', ammunition restricted to 300rds (600rds for support weapons) secondaries excepted, no hierarchy, no stupid guard duty or anything like that - basically a regular skirmish but more organised. They don't do weekenders (that I'm aware of) but there are occasional night games.

 

damn there is one this saturday. alas  

 

I must admit though the choice of a black vs camo is a bit odd compared to green v tan - with 60 player capacity it seems like the camo team is 23 booked players vs 6 booked black players!

[FireKnife]

camo team is 23 booked players vs 6 booked black players!

 

Racism?

 

Still I find that either you end up with recommendations to take both or they put hire / last minute players into the lower participant team.

 

'FireKnife'

[PureSilver]

damn there is one this saturday. alas

 

A teammate of mine has a ticket for this weekend he can't use because he can't get transport there; if you're interested, let me know and I'll put you into contact with him?

[Smoke]

This is pretty much what I try to do when running the bigger weekend games at our Club.

 

I keep getting fought on ammo restrictions though, and experience tells me that you just can't force the way players, well... Play.

[Skarclaw]

 

A teammate of mine has a ticket for this weekend he can't use because he can't get transport there; if you're interested, let me know and I'll put you into contact with him?

 

I'd love to but work party on friday night, in anycase I'd have to travel from London down south that night to make Saturday morning cheers though!

[PureSilver]

Ah, you're not London-based?

[Skarclaw]

I live and work there but I keep my airsoft bits at my parents house, along with my car (perhaps the salient factor) 

[Griff762]

Might be worth checking Gunman Airsoft and FCS

[Azubi]

The sterling games at Catterick tend to be a lot like you are looking for. It's all taking buildings for points, etc.

[mgyz3]

The urban assault milsim games would float your boat. They are normally run at the beginning of the year and pretty much tick all your boxes.

[scorch]

Urban Assault though.

[mgyz3]

Lol. There is alot less foul play at the milsim days compared to a regular open day.

[TheFull9]

Read this yesterday when Skar posted it up but I thought I'd give it some time for the little hamster upstairs to do a few reps in his wheel before replying, seeing as this is something that does seem quite lacking.

 

The conclusion I came to was that actually the Morning After Ops I've been to were pretty much the airsoft I want to play really.  They were rather different to the criteria listed in the OP, but I'd be more than happy with that style of game as well, it just happens that MA created the pleasant social atmosphere and fun, relaxed games all spread over a longer time period that really encapsulates what I believe the 'ideal' of airsoft really is.  The actual shooting part of trying to beat the other team in a skirmish is a foundation upon which stands the real reason an awful lot of people play (though often they're quite oblivious to the fact).  I enjoy the fact that these guns we use can be fired at another person and through a combination of low energy projectiles and PPE, the worst they'll potentially suffer is a bit of a bruise most of the time, yet they still look like something mean and cool that I can't personally own for real and couldn't shoot at a person if I did.  As with getting a kill in an FPS game, there's a small pang of satisfaction when you manage to hit an opposing player, it's quite nice when you complete and objective too, but then again most games I've been to the announcement of who's won consists of "ok, last round the oranges got 23 and the blues got... 27!  Well done blues.  Now on to the next game...".

 

However, although I personally believe that many are oblivious to the fact, I reckon it's other things which really constitute the good bit about airsoft for an awful lot of people.  If I were to ever open a standard sort of skirmish site, it'd have a nice long, leisurely gap between doors opening and the first game, each game would be relatively short with long breaks inbetween and a very long lunch.  There'd be long, narrow tables in the safe zone (that don't butt up to the walls to make peoples' lives difficult) like a medieval dining hall or a military mess so that everyone has maximum view of all the other gear/guns on display and maximum opportunity for chatting to folks and walking around mixing in.  Rather than start early and finish early, it'd open about 9 and finish at maybe 6.  Not over-crowded the way most sites seem to be, plenty of room for flanking rather than constant stale-mates in door ways and over patches of dead ground.  Probably ammo limits and I'd try to encourage as much use of shotguns, gas weapons and the like as possible.  Not saying this would definitely take off and no doubt some people out there with knowledge of running a site could point out why it wouldn't work financially in the real world, but I do maintain that the social side is what really gets people out of bed on a sunday, the telling of war stories, showing off new toys and the like.  The running and shooting is just the common ground that it's all built upon a lot of the time.

 

For a bit more serious gaming action then the list Skars' done there is pretty much dead on I think.  I know some forces 'softers go along to the more stringent milsim games but I'm fairly certain that's a minority.  I've zero wish to pay to do things like stand guard over somewhere in the cold and wet going bored out of my little mind when I'm contractually obliged to get paid to do that for real every now and again; it's awful enough when the money's coming in rather than going out.  I was honestly amazed that such things are included in some milsim ops when I first heard about it.  Also there are places I've seen in the US that have managed to recreate what is basically Afghan with a mind blowing amount of authenticity, but I'd rather not do that at all than experience an attempt on airsoft-size budgets.  A big old Battlefield style scrap between the Green and Tan teams would give the enjoyment of a good size battle (with lots going on, vehicles, teams running about etc) and that's all I'd be after personally.

 

Safe zones that are actually safe so you can relax between missions/fights, the option to get some proper sleep with at least a modicum of shelter and a full break in the game for maybe 8 hours or so.  Then restrictions on ammo such that people actually will run out and go down to pistols in really extended shootouts, but not so small that you've got an actual realistic 120-180 rounds and are kinda *fruitcage*ed by the fact that BBs aren't nearly as accurate as 556 or 762.  Personally I can and would put up with some long hours, tough conditions and general unpleasantness when the time came to do something for real.. in a hobby though?  Not for me.

[ninja master of coffee]

As others have mentioned, look up gunman airsoft. It's sounds like you'd get most of the aspects you're after. Ammo restrictions (600 for most players, 150 for snipers and 3000 for support gunners though they're rare anyway), mostly run green vs tan for team camo, no further load out restrictions, mostly objective based rather than "kill count" based. There is something of a command structure in that you have player marshals and some other squad leaders but it's kept pretty light and frankly it's necissary to stop it just degenerating into a normal skirmish. The main thing generally is that you're not meant to go lone wolfing. There are also medic rules and fire duration limits to avoid over kill. The main thing is they're really well run, fun games with a good sense of community. Both sides generally have there regulars but new comers are always welcome. It generally gets nice and social after the games with beer and chatting in the evenings.

[Griff762]

^ What he said. Went to Eversley earlier in the year and wow what a difference that was! We were all split down into individual sections so there was some good section attacks going on and when one team was severely losing the fight the section commander would pop smoke and call for them to fall back. All the section commanders were on comms with each other so it did feel like you were a smaller part of a bigger picture. I also dragged down some people how would be violently ill at the sound of the word mil sim and they managed to enjoy the day too!

[darkchild130]

Our event (see the contego thread for details) is along these lines. It was initially a milsim event, but we switched to a skirmish to make it more accessible, with shorter, more intense games and less of a narrative. It meets most of the criteria that the OP states though we are not using ammo limits for the first game.

This may be changed based on our experiences.

 

As we're all serving/ex military, we want people to play regular skirmish type games, but stop and really think about their tactics before committing rather than just running around willy nilly.

So the marshals will be acting as advisors too, helping people out if they get stuck in a jam, without forcing our opinions on anyone.

(I'll *badgeress* slap the *fruitcage*ers if they try and ruin anyone's fun)

 

If people are up for it, I will also run some (purely optional) weapon handling/CQB/room entry lessons at our "Killhouse" on the side.

 

Darkchild

[Griff762]

Is that the site at the abandoned woodbridge base? Did an exercise at that creepy place years ago.

[darkchild130]

The site is at bentwater Suffolk, old usaf base

[Griff762]

That's the one, once I'm working again I'll defo make my up there for a game. If you start slapping down ammo limits that would groovy.

[Deadmeat]

I reckon having ammo limits of say 600 rounds in your primary, ban the use of hicap mags, then all you want to carry in your secondary works well. Then you can reload back at your regen/spawn, so if you really go crazy and run out of ammo you simply take yourself out of the game to reload.

[3vi1-D4n]

Its interesting the idea of this "middle ground".

 

In my 15 years in airsoft the "best" games I have seen are games where:

 

1) Simple skirmish games where the majority are ex/serving members of an armed forces. Games didn't have to be milsim, so long as the goal is challenging and clearly identified, the planning and improvisation will occur as they do in a military setting.  At an operational level, there are usually less complaints, players generally will get dirty and play hard, and are usually aware of their general arcs, tactical movement, and security of the team.   There is usually a lack of barking or pushing people around in a fire fight as most soldiers don't want to bring the negative part of work into their "fun" time.

 

2) Well crafted scenario where majority new civvie players are made to realise the plight they are in, that the game has been designed so they can't survive individually, and allowed enough flex to determine their own fate as a team. 

 

3) Scenario games where most players have been given time to have prepared and the role/situation rings true to their team within the scenario, such as a revolt/uprising or drug cartels etc , and have been able to overcome tactical shortcomings/inexperience with preparation, strategy and spirit. 

 

4) Experienced airsofters with some experience in building teams outside of airsoft (such as in a sports team), training and leading teams, functioning in realistic scenario games (not quite milsim)

 

So this idea of "middle ground" is consistent with what I have seen. Its that balance between a difficult chaotic situation which promotes just the right amount of structure for people to function together, which brings games that flow.

 

---------------------------------------

 

The issue is that airsoft can be anything from spamfest meatgrinders where it favours the inidivdual, to over-the-top barking of commands in-game and nitpicking over SOPs, chain of command and ROEs.  Its unfortunate that milsim has been associated with the extreme end of simulated realism. 

 

The other issue is that commercialism prefers individual choice and the neglect of the socialist ideas of team, even though enjoyment not just about choice but also belonging.  Video games and airsoft games have become more individualistic and caters for customisation or purchase of ingame tools to succeed in a game, many newer players are driven to self satisfy themselves, hence why high turnover meatgrinder games are still preferred.

[FireKnife]

I personally find that the biggest issue is that the majority of sites don't bother to encourage such game play and make the game interesting.

 

They give you a point, something to do at said point, point you at it and go 'have fun'. They consider it a 'tried and true' idea and that is what they stick with.

 

Ammo limits I must admit do help a lot in games as they stop spraying and the like but another system to incorporate (and one I have seen used quite effectively) is to set full and semi auto at distances. Make anything sub 20m semi only as then it adds in the element of you can't rely on a steady stream of shots but neither can your opponent so you can get through their defences a lot easier and flanking becomes possible as you are not just held down by a kid with a box mag on an M4.

 

'FireKnife'