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Hatchet

Wolverine SMP HPA cylinder replacement

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So I figured I'd start a thread on this seeing as at least 8 other people in the UK must have them (based on The Grange's sales).

 

Overview

In case you've not been following, the Wolverine SMP (Single Moving Part) is a high pressure air based system designed to drop in to existing gearboxes. The nearest similar product is the Polarstar, but that requires you to buy a complete gearbox shell, which will either be for a V2, V3 or (I think) M249. One of the main selling points of the Wolverine is that you can drop it into any gearbox that takes a standard sized cylinder and you're good to go - assuming they make the appropriate length nozzle for it (currently there are 12 different ones).

 

There's an install video here (not mine) that gives you an idea of the actual install process. Essentially it's "remove all the gears, etc, leave the trigger in, install trigger board and SMP unit".

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9P3EVpNrw8

 

The install process isn't entirely straightforward as I had to do a little selector plate shaving in order to get both fire modes and still have the physical safety work but other than that it's easy to install and very easy to change RoF and dwell (to manage air efficiency for the most part). ROF can be varied between chugging away slowly or absolutely insane (like, 60rps territory). FPS is set by dialling in the PSI between 40 and 120 on your air rig's regulator and by the length of the barrel you're running. Long barrels at a high PSI will easily hit UK sniper limits. Happily you can also set the fire mode to DMR which is semi with approx 2 second pause between shots. Alternatively you can set either full auto or burst between about 2 and 10 rounds. 

 

Issues

Because with me it's never plain sailing...

 

The issue I'm having, and have seen others report are something along the lines of "The main problem is that while most of the BBs fly alright but every once in a while there's a significant drop in trajectory, as well as some BBs just go left/right for some reason."

 

Sadly I had to resubscribe to Facebook (argh, spit, etc) so I could join the SMP owners group. There is info in there, but there's also a lot of people saying "It's your hop/alignment, this system is awesome". So I'm inclined to think that for some people this is just a drop in, it all lines up and works perfectly, and for others... well, not so much.

 

For my part I have tried 4 different hop ups (including lonex and prowin), hop rubbers and barrels as well as 2 different gearbox shells (TM and lonex) and I'm still seeing the same sort of inaccuracies and random shots. I've even dropped it into a different gun entirely, which seemed marginally improved but not perfect. The happy SMP owners say that it can't be a problem with the SMP because all it does is push out air and that's it. But there seem to be an equal number saying "but this setup worked fine in my old AEG/Polarstar and the only thing that's changed is the engine".

 

Perhaps like many things the truth is somewhere in the middle, but it's hard to make an argument that this a simple drop in replacement when faced with issues like this. Which is a shame, as clearly there are people having great fun with them, some are shooting straight as lasers and they are both easily adjustable and quiet as a mouse's fart when suppressed. Sadly I'm not one of them. So I shall try to work out what to troubleshoot next. Ideally without having to buy a whole new shell/donor AEG...

 

Any other Wolverine users out there? What are your experiences?

 

 

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This is the issue with the polarstar too.

I had hoped the SMP wouldn't be the same. Shame :(

 

"All it does is push air out and that's it".

Yep...the true thing to take away from this is that there's a lot more to accuracy than we understand so far.

How air is let into the barrel has a lot to say for accuracy.

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My MG42 was not a drop in, I still have issues. But I know that they are self induced. Dwell is set too high, nozzle not aligned. And I'm still looking for a bucking that works. Nothing worked on the original either, so that's not better or worse.

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Good thread! In fact I and a friend of mine have experienced exactly the kind of problems you are facing with. A few days ago I wrote on BingoAirsoftworks FB wall, but haven´t got anything back from there. 

Either way - I have a Polarstar FE Gen3 Ver2 in my Lonex M4 body with Lonex hopup chamber, Prometheus purple rubber and PDI barrel. Friend has SMP in a VFC HK416, guarder barrel, prometheus rubber and VFC stock or Prowin chamber. SMP is bad, at higher PSI-s like 100PSI it really is bad. At lower like 60-70PSI it is playable , but nowhere "good". 

My Polarstar - same. At  higher PSI like 100-120 I get up-down fluctuation. At 80 PSI it shoots a whole lot better, almost very good. 

Now heres the point: FPS stability IS VERY GOOD. Like 0.5m/s fluctuation, no more. So it can not be a compression issue, it has to be somewhere else. I have perfectly centered the nozzle alignment. I am using very good quality 0.30g Blaster Devil bb-s. Feeds flawlessly. 

I myself suspect it is somehow tied to the speed of nozzle movement. If nozzle dashes forward with great speed it maybe somehow pushes BB too much forward via intertia and under the mound too far. Thus inconsistent hopup but very consistent FPS. On SMP it is logical since the speed of the nozzle movement is tied to PSI. On Fusion Engine it is not - spring pushes the nozzle forward but air takes it backward. 

Here is my thread about the problem @PSTalk forums http://www.pstartalk.com/showthread.php?2206-Strange-issue-low-PSI-good-high-PSI-bad-hopup-stability

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Hey guys, since this post was pointed out to me, I thought I'd get on here and see if I could be of any assistance. I want to clear a couple things up first and then I'll see if maybe I can shed some light on where to look. Full disclosure: I have had a handfull of complaints along these lines over the course of the last six months. The difficulty is that I have never been able to put hands on the gun myself to determine what the issue is. If someone would like to vounteer to ship their gun acting this way to me, I'll be happy to take a look at it in person. 

As far as it goes, the vast majority of issues along these lines ARE allignment issues. Search the Users Group on facebook if you like and you'll see plenty of cases of people having problems with unstable shots and it being fixed once the alignment is correct. The OP is right in saying that sometimes you just get unlucky and the gun you are installing in isn't straight so you have to fix the alignment. However I have a couple cases of people saying the alignment is perfect and their hop up is good and it is still doing this. Let me make a slight disclaimer:

The thing people blow off (as was referenced in the previous post) is the insinuation that the inaccuracy is somehow inherent with the system. That notion is blown off because honestly there is sufficient documented evidence of the system shooting extremely accurately at a wide range of pressures to make the option that it is somehow inherrant and unavoidable with the system untennable. 

However, I will be the FIRST (as the designer of the SMP)  to tell you that it is more picky about your hop up/alignment/system tolerances being right than an AEG is. So with that said let me offer some things to look at for those that are SURE the alignment is good. Even if you think it is, humor me and double check using the flashlight method as I've been told time and again that people are sure it is right only to find out to the contrary.

 

-System lubrication: While this isn't usually an issue especially when new, it can cause this type of behavior so it should be checked. We recommend TechT gun sav. Lubricate all orings including the small front nozzle oring inside the housing. 

-Nozzle length: It is possible that your unit could have a component which is out of tolerance causing the nozzle length to be too long or too short. In particular the nozzle length being too long can cause this type of issue as it physically shoves the bb past the hop nub. While I have never seen the parts be that out of tolerance, it is certainly possible and should be checked. 

-Other component defects: It is possible there could be some other physical defect causing the SMP to not cycle smoothly consistently. A scratched surface, a burr catching/dragging on something, a miss shaped oring. These things are not necessarily easy to track down. 

 

Hopefully this is helpful and can point some people in the right direction. As someone who has invested their heart and soul in developing this product, I want my customers to be happy with it and at the end of the day if you aren't I'm willing to do whatever necessary to make it right. That's why I spend countless hours on the facebook forum helping people learn about and troubleshoot the system when they have issues. I'm hoping we can figure out what these ellusive bugs are that seem to cause people problems occasionally so that we can help people solve them more quickly in the process. 

~Rich

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Oh one more thing. I think someone said that since the FPS wasn't varying they knew they were getting a good seal. I used to think that was the case, and certainly it usually is. However, in the process of doing some experimenting one of the guns I was doing ended up with a nozzle a full 2mm too short. However it took me forever to find because, to my amazement it still shot +/- 2fps, just extremely low fps. That is to some extent off topic, but as it is something you would probably never guess until you see it for yourself I thought I would share. 

 

~Rich

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Hey Rich.

 

Many thanks for taking the time to comment on this. I know if I were that side of the pond I'd probably have got someone else to do the install as there seems to be a fair few shops offering that. "Normal" gearbox/wiring work I can handle, but when it comes to shimming, filing, or being able to tell differences in mm's then I'm outside of my abilities. My technical ability falls somewhere in the "can build lego with instructions" range.

 

I've found the videos you've done very useful (flashlight checking alignment, initial setup), and it's clear you've put a lot of work into this product. Sadly, with the gun I was using I just couldn't make any progress. However, in the hopes that I've just been unlucky I've picked up an E&L AK74 and am hoping I'll have more success this time. Actually, I note from one of your FB posts you've got that same - how was the install?

 

I know these things *can* shoot like lasers, so here's hoping... :)

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Into an old Classic Army body using a TM gearbox (and as noted, various hops, barrels, etc.) It was a *bit* of a build from spares job, so I can understand that.

 

I know installs can vary, but I wonder if it's possible to compile a list of guns/manufacturers that are just drop ins. Might save some pain for those of us without the skills/gunsmiths to hand.

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Hatchet, 

 

To be honest piecemeal builds like that are the worst case scenario as far as having alignment issues/fitment issues. You easily could have either alignment problems or the nozzle could be the wrong length. As you said it would definitely be best to have someone with experience doing these builds look at it. 

As far as a list of what manufacturers are drop in's, the issue rarely is that the parts don't fit nominally speaking, it's that different manufacturers have varying degrees of tolerance control. So for instance if you go with a very high end manufacturer like VFC, Krytac, G&P, etc, you are far less likely to have such issues. But even the best will occasionally have a bad apple in the bunch. There's not one manufacturer I haven't seen at least one case of poor alignment with. However the situation is made MUCH worse when you mix and match parts since different manufacturers have different tolerances. So really all I can say is that the better quality the external build, the less likely you are to have issues, but you always need to check, cause sometimes you just get unlucky. For example, I've done quite a few Krytac builds. Build quality is top notch, but one of them, the alighment was off side to side. All the others was dead nuts perfect, but that one something was off spec and needed to be straightened out before finishing the installation. It goes with the territory as far as HPA builds needing much higher precision than AEG's. AEG's can handle slop because they are themselves sloppy and have lots of play. HPA builds are not and need things to be just right. 

Edited by WolverineAirsoft
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There's something plagueing all these HPA replacement solutions.

It's the same symptoms; super stable FPS, hopup all over the place in either a curve or entirely random.

 

I'm all for finding the source of the problem and developing a consistent, repeatable solution to it.

 

Then i'll be (back) on the HPA wagon.

 

However, i do not agree that checking alignment again solves it. There's a deeper issue.

Too long nozzles is worth exploring further.

It should be possible to add spacers on the polarstars to adjust nozzle length.

Obviously, spacering the hopup away from the gearbox is easy too.

If anybody tries this, please post about the result.

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Are you suggesting that it's impossible to acheive accuracy with the current set up? If so I'd reference you to the following two links. (a host more data could be produced as well but these are two simple visual proofs)
 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=935512989810271

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10101942395889974

Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that saying there's a fundamental intrinsic problem is barking up the wrong tree. The vast majority of set ups have no problems. In fact I have yet to see a set up myself that acts this way that didn't end up being a set up problem, which is why at this point all I can do is guess as to the cause. I've had my share of tricky set ups, but it always came down to something not being quite right with the set up. 

 

~Rich

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Hi Rich, glad to see people like you trying to solve problems on public forums. You said about tolerances being out of range. Can you please verify that exactly should be the nozzle length e.g. for a M4 nozzle in a SMP? 
Also - you should have an indication what the FPS should be at certain PSI, just for reference. Since we (I am) are talking about FPS stability +-1FPS or even less then that I would say that air seal is good. Also the FPS is about right. If I can remember correctly it was 80PSI 0.2g 110m/s (360FPS) maybe? Something like that.

Why I think it is somehow related to bb being pushed too far under the hopup mound? Well my last test with SMP was this:
Barrel setup nr.1 Guarder 300mm, PDI W-hold, Lonex rotary chamber. Accuracy was all over the place, totally bad. 
Barrel setup nr.2 Guarder 300mm, Maple Leaf monster hop, Lonex rotary chamber. The Monster hopup has a really long hopup patch or mount. Accuracy was almost OK, with the occasional low shots. Much much better. Same PSI and same BB-s on both tests. Both tests had similar FPS stability and speed, measured with chrono. Hence my thoughts about bb being pushed too far under hopup mound. If you compare a regular AEG nozzle moving speed and one on a SMP then you will find they are very much different. SMP cycles so fast that you almost can´t see it, AEG is probably many times lower. Higher mass BB-s get more kinetic energy and are pushed further. Dunno if true, just a theory. 

P.S. The videos linked are not very good since you can´y really see the BB flight path all the way. I have a scopecam setup soon, I will try and make a video about it. 

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Are you suggesting that it's impossible to acheive accuracy with the current set up? If so I'd reference you to the following two links. (a host more data could be produced as well but these are two simple visual proofs)

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=935512989810271

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10101942395889974

 

Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that saying there's a fundamental intrinsic problem is barking up the wrong tree. The vast majority of set ups have no problems. In fact I have yet to see a set up myself that acts this way that didn't end up being a set up problem, which is why at this point all I can do is guess as to the cause. I've had my share of tricky set ups, but it always came down to something not being quite right with the set up. 

 

~Rich

 

 

No, just highly unlikely, to the point of being futile to expect a good result out of a HPA solution :)

 

Denmark is one of the biggest importers of polarstar. I think we account for 40% of amped airsofts export alone (don't quote me on that though).

I've personally owned polarstar products.

I've made a point of always trying other peoples polarstar rifles when possible, or watching their rifles BB path/spread (watching over their shoulder when sighting in etc).

My conclusion is solid. Polarstar products have some unique, odd accuracy characteristics that makes them unwanted. Scores of people have been selling their polarstar rifles off again, and i've confirmed behind the scenes with them that accuracy characteristics was the primary issue.

 

It's been just polarstar so far.

 

Now that Bjorn, a person who's conclusions i trust due to him not being the type that assumes or jumps to conclusions like most other people, experiences the same issues on the SMP as i and everyone else did on polarstar, i make the conclusion that SMP suffers from the same issues.

Which, in hindsight, and ironicly, is a bit of jumping to a conclusion :)

 

I'd be happy to help you make a decent video review of efficiency/accuracy from a very high end perspective if you wish. PM'd for details.

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What's the scientific basis for your conclusions? "Accuracy" is highly subjective especially amongst airsoft players. What explanation do you offer to support your conclusions? Why do Polarstars, as you suggest, exhibit inherently poor accuracy?

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Hey bjorn I can answer your question about over and under hop.. It's your hop up :)

I just had this problem with a customs gun, alignment perfect everything else perfect but it would over and under hop like a mofo.

Do me a favor and take a strong flashlight and shine it in your hop up, I will bet you that you will find scrape marks from the nozzle 360° around the inside the hop up.

Remedy for this is to bore out the hop up, don't touch the area that the barrel fits into. Just drill out the center section and the section that contacts the gearbox.

When I'm done building up my youtube channel I'll link over a video of my customers gun. With a 5 round bust 3 to 4 bb's hitting the target over 200 feet away on a 250mm barrel.

Other comments about P* accuracy I'd love to handle but it's just such a in depth subject that you need to do alot of experimenting. I would bet 9 or 10 of those shooting problems is all about volume.

Edited by k-p

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Perhaps we have different standards of accuracy. I'm a little miffed that you would just blow off the videos. While I agree that seeing the flight path would be great, my point was simply that stating that it is impossible to achieve good accuracy with the system is patently false. The videos demonstrate what I would consider extremely good accuracy in far from optimal conditions regardless of any flight path characteristics. In the one video it is quite windy, in the other completely dark to the point I couldn't even see the target, and certainly couldn't see where my shots were missing and adjust. I was just going off of a rough knowledge of the target location. Unless you just want to say you don't believe me and the others doing the videos about the distances/target sizes. :-) 

 

As far as making the comparison to Polarstar, that is a very dangerous assumption. Multiple people have observed that the two systems do not behave at all the same, particulary as it pertains to applying hop to the bb. I think you will find if you set up two identical guns and swap the upper back and forth, the P* will apply much more hop at a given setting than the SMP corresponding to the bb being pushed faster across the hop up rubber. 

 

IIRC the nozzle should be 15.75-16.25mm from the front of the gearbox in the forward position. if you want to get really specific there is some variation fom one brand to the next. I think some even are a touch shorter than that. In my testing I have found it to be ideal if the SMP nozzle is between 0 and .5mm longer than the stock nozzle. 

As far as your set up goes:
1. I have not had great results with the W type hops. The Maple leaf is a better choice with this set up.
2. For the hop up unit itself, I have it on good authority the neck of that particular hop up unit is narrow and doesn't allow enough space for the nozzle to move freely. I have not tried it myself but the tech using it said he had to bore out the neck of the lonex hop up unit just a bit to get good consistent results.  (edit: while I was in the process of writing this seems K-P jumped on here and commented so...he explainted it in much greater detail.)

3. BBs? I hope you were only using .2's for chrono not actually range testing. No HPA system I have ever seen (and certainly not the SMP) does well with light ammo. Heavy BBs, even at low velocity. I'll run .3's at 1J all day and have great range and consistency. I would guess you know that but I don't like to make assumptions. 

 

I'm going to be perfectly honest: I'm not sure you really are willing to be convinced. It seems to me you have already made your decision that you don't like HPA in general. If that's the case I'm not offended, but I'd really rather not waste both of our time talking past each other as so often happens on forums. If my assesment of the situation is wrong, please pardon me, no offense is meant. 

Edited by WolverineAirsoft

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Hi Rich, glad to see people like you trying to solve problems on public forums. You said about tolerances being out of range. Can you please verify that exactly should be the nozzle length e.g. for a M4 nozzle in a SMP? 

Also - you should have an indication what the FPS should be at certain PSI, just for reference. Since we (I am) are talking about FPS stability +-1FPS or even less then that I would say that air seal is good. Also the FPS is about right. If I can remember correctly it was 80PSI 0.2g 110m/s (360FPS) maybe? Something like that.

 

Why I think it is somehow related to bb being pushed too far under the hopup mound? Well my last test with SMP was this:

Barrel setup nr.1 Guarder 300mm, PDI W-hold, Lonex rotary chamber. Accuracy was all over the place, totally bad. 

Barrel setup nr.2 Guarder 300mm, Maple Leaf monster hop, Lonex rotary chamber. The Monster hopup has a really long hopup patch or mount. Accuracy was almost OK, with the occasional low shots. Much much better. Same PSI and same BB-s on both tests. Both tests had similar FPS stability and speed, measured with chrono. Hence my thoughts about bb being pushed too far under hopup mound. If you compare a regular AEG nozzle moving speed and one on a SMP then you will find they are very much different. SMP cycles so fast that you almost can´t see it, AEG is probably many times lower. Higher mass BB-s get more kinetic energy and are pushed further. Dunno if true, just a theory. 

 

P.S. The videos linked are not very good since you can´y really see the BB flight path all the way. I have a scopecam setup soon, I will try and make a video about it. 

Heres the video of the modified or should I say corrected lonex hop up, this gun aswell did exactly what you described over and under hopping all over the place, POS polished brass barrel 250mm valken .25's  400fps again hitting 3 to 4 shots out of a 5 round busrt at over 200 feet, im eye balling the 200 in relationship to the paintball field.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAVRJzgVE5I

 You can also see and hear the cross wind, its about 20 to 30mph. thats our normal down here.

The only big difference is this gun and or my guns in genral have the regulator mounted inside of the pistol grip, reason behind this is limiting volume after the secondary almost forcing the regulator to open up and not lag behind. I found this to be my best set up to date.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/caferacing

BTW since you asked for scop cams check out Dobeys vids, tons of scope cams, range finder and genral awesomess while using a P* defiently no problem with tragectory on his P*

Edited by k-p

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Perhaps we have different standards of accuracy...

I didn´t understand if the whole post was a reply to mine or Jal3`s. 

 

Anyhow, just to make it clear. I have sold every other rifle and think that Polarstar (general HPA) setup is superior in airsoft due to many factors such as trigger response, noise level, range etc. Pretty much THE ONLY thing right now that I have found is "odd", is the under hop that I have got sometimes. Now the SMP platform that I tested and tried to fix was a friends. But as they had similar issues, I brought both into my discussions. 

 

PDI-W hold rubber - I have had great success with them, except in the SMP. 

 

At some point I did think about boring out the "neck" of hopup chamber where the nozzle moves. I will try that out very soon. 

 

I use 0.2g and 0.3g (0.2g only does not show the real results if you use 0.3g in game) for chrono and 0.3g only for shooting tests. 

 

About the videos - I am sorry but Youtube does not give that great quality to see the whole flight path. Let me explain. I said before that I consider HPA platform to be very good. The odd "underhop" that I have encountered would probably not be seen in a video like that. Also 3 out of 5 BB-s would hit a barrel or other big target just the same. That was my point that the videos are not showing what I considered to be a problem. Maybe Jal3 had other things in mind about general problems with HPA platforms. 

 

In conclusion. I will try and make some demo scopecam videos and also try to bore out the hopup. Just stay tuned on this topic and maybe we will get it better. 

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Here is the video of first "base" test. Will try different things and upload videos as I do. Note: this test platform is my personal Polarstar Fusion Engine. But since exactly the same problems were on the SMP platform then I believe they are caused by the same problem. I have previously tried many mane barrel-chamber-rubber combos. Some have been slightly better, others worse. But all of them had some kind on "problem" similar to seen in the video below. 

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I'm going to be perfectly honest: I'm not sure you really are willing to be convinced. It seems to me you have already made your decision that you don't like HPA in general. If that's the case I'm not offended, but I'd really rather not waste both of our time talking past each other as so often happens on forums. If my assesment of the situation is wrong, please pardon me, no offense is meant. 

 

 

That's not the case at all. I've written that i would really want to see a solid HPA product, and when that happens i'll go back to HPA. I don't think that can be interpretted as being against HPA products :)

 

I've even been one of the biggest proponents for SMP around when people have complained about high price (MSRP doesnt matter, margin does), T-1000 ripoff (people don't understand it's not a complete system at all) and so on.

 

Bjorn: That is exactly the base issue i've seen in polarstars for years. It's as if someone is dialing the hopup back and forth while you're shooting. It's also why shooting at a sound response target doesn't fully encompass the issue. It requires mag dumps and flight path zoom ins.

The only theory i have for it, is that the valve clap shifts around slightly when shooting, hence why it's usually a gradual shot-to-shot change.

Edited by jal3

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What's the scientific basis for your conclusions? "Accuracy" is highly subjective especially amongst airsoft players. What explanation do you offer to support your conclusions? Why do Polarstars, as you suggest, exhibit inherently poor accuracy?

 

 

Whoah there. I'm just observing. The conclusion is just the expectance of a certain result based on previous experience...which i wrote :)

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Here is the video of first "base" test. Will try different things and upload videos as I do. Note: this test platform is my personal Polarstar Fusion Engine. But since exactly the same problems were on the SMP platform then I believe they are caused by the same problem. I have previously tried many mane barrel-chamber-rubber combos. Some have been slightly better, others worse. But all of them had some kind on "problem" similar to seen in the video below. 

 

 

Yes, this is the kind of thing I'm seeing too. Sadly also with the E&L AK I tried putting it in. I've dropped AEG internals back in it and it's shooting straight and true again. :(

 

I think I may have to wait for someone to do a system that utilises the existing aeg nozzles or similar. Or complete gearbox/barrel systems that attached to each other somehow.

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So what are you looking for in accuracy? For me 80% hit on a human sized target using light bb's in the wind at over 200ft is accurate for my style of play. I'm shooting over 270 feet hitting human sized tagets. I'm not sure if your looking for 100% at 200+ feet. Not clear on your goals for your system?

 

As for the scope cam vids, that was just in genral because I have read alot of negative things on hpa systems in this forum. I think chad does a great job displaying his talent as a machinest and the ability of his hpa powered system.

 

Defiently bore out the lonex, You should see a improvment in shot quality. like said before the gun in the video was also under or over hopping regardless of alignment or set up. Removing just the chrome plating from inside the lonex made a huge difference in range and accuracy.

If you haven't noticed yet the smp is affected by drag or friction differently then a polarstar.

 

Another over looked part of the equation is reg refresh rate, ufa, tank reg and of course the line. Hpa by no means is just a slap it in and go set up but it does have rewards for the people who take their time to set it up.

 

For anyone in genral having issues with hpa I would start with

1) alignment

2) bucking set and drop test to ensure the bucking fits properly in the chosen Hop up

3) hop up clearances

4) secondary regulator and line

5) tank regulator. Might sound silly but there is a difference if your using full auto.

 

Hope you get it all sorted out.

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