JackofBlades2448 Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Yeah that above pic wd just about do it. It was pretty much alloy tube i guess; a load of very simple parts on a car 15 receiver. Are theee any old style AR10s out btw? I know these never got commercial success but i think Sudan among others brought the rifle. The sudanese ones have distinctive brown bakelite furniture and I remember it from that (pretty ) game driver 76. Ive seen literrally hundreds of ar15 variants, but never have I seen an old school ar10. Link to post Share on other sites
Deve Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 There's no original style airsoft AR-10s, just SR-25s. Sadly . (unlikely too, as they would be slow sellers outside a handful of enthusiasts who do Portuguese, Cuban or a few other extreme niche setups!) Link to post Share on other sites
JackofBlades2448 Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Yeah,its like how "niche" can you get before your market is a couple dozen Armalite fanatics...? I have to give credit to g&p for making a car15 with the triangular handguards; its hands down the coolest looking AR on the market imo and one day she'll be mine, all mine... Link to post Share on other sites
Deve Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Credit has to go to TM for doing a 607 AEG first (or at all) - G&P only filled the gap in the market with the TM CAR-15 being long out of production. Link to post Share on other sites
Imperator Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 An early AR-10 would be something... Link to post Share on other sites
JackofBlades2448 Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Yeah, they are just eye candy...so incredibly simple yet hi-tech, space-age even (for the time); I mean they used fibreglass, aircraft aluminum and composite alloys back in the fifties-its unlikely the "black rifle" would exist w/o this. Link to post Share on other sites
Imperator Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Yeah, they are just eye candy...so incredibly simple yet hi-tech, space-age even (for the time); I mean they used fibreglass, aircraft aluminum and composite alloys back in the fifties-its unlikely the "black rifle" would exist w/o this. Technically it wouldn't exist, since the AR-15 is just a scaled down AR-10, with some tweaks in it. I came to discover, some time back, that the Portuguese Paratroopers used the AR-10 (made in Holland under license) back in 61', at the beginning of the Portuguese Colonial War, before the general adoption of the G3. Link to post Share on other sites
JackofBlades2448 Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Wow, never knew that, but compared to the wood n steel rifles of the day such a light rifle would be a natural choice for paratroopers, -I only really knew that Armalite had a large Sudanese contract;these have the distinctive brown fibreglass furniture. Interestingly Batiste of Cuba brought a number which promptly fell into Castros armouries. Communist revolutionary steals tools of the capitalist oppressor so ironic. A checquered career for sure....I find the early Armalite company fascinating; I mean their battle rifle should have been world beaters among the "first generation" post war rifles what the hell went wrong? Edit: Ive just seen a prototype pic (possibly) of a belt-fed AR10-sorry dunno how to post pics on this old phone. Stoner really did like the modular weapon even so early in his career then. Link to post Share on other sites
mightyjebus Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 TM also made these - M653 Link to post Share on other sites
Deve Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Back in the day I converted a spare M16vn front on fit on my TM XM177E2 so I could swap it over to run as a M653 or XM177E1, by swapping the outer barrels/flashiders from the foresight forward. The back end took a lot of drilling out to fit the smaller XM outer barrel I seem to remember... Nice to see some original TM 'Barnes' carbines MJ. I mean their battle rifle should have been world beaters among the "first generation" post war rifles what the hell went wrong? Early production issues & poor QC didn't help in the early days and it was really killed as once all the issues had been worked out just as the US Army had decided that the battle rifle was no longer the way forward. Link to post Share on other sites
ninja master of coffee Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Interestingly Batiste of Cuba brought a number which promptly fell into Castros armouries. Communist revolutionary steals tools of the capitalist oppressor so ironic. A checquered career for sure.... . A quick historical point, Castro actually paid Fairchild for the 100 AR 10 rifles in the armoury after he, Raul and Che test fired them. It's an interesting rifle for sure, also curious how ideas come back with various in line rifles in 7.62 nato now being used world wide. Link to post Share on other sites
Imperator Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Early production issues & poor QC didn't help in the early days and it was really killed as once all the issues had been worked out just as the US Army had decided that the battle rifle was no longer the way forward. Yes! Namelly, by the adoption of the somewhat new NATO round, the 5.56x45. The Portuguese AR-10's (there is really a model of the rifle called this. The other two being the Sudanese and the Transitional models) where manufactured by the Dutch company Artillerie Inrichtingen. It was the last version, and an upgraded one. Heavier barrel, chrome lined chamber, wider bolt lugs, a stronger extractor, a new simplified three-position gas regulator, and a cocking handle featuring a forward bolt assist. And it was reported to be a very accurate rifle. Source: Wikipedia I did frequent the Paratroopers Training school for a few months back in 2006, but didn't get a chance to get my eyes on one (I'm sure there must be a couple of them still there). Link to post Share on other sites
JackofBlades2448 Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Yeah, the air force just fell in love with the things, but air forces in general have more money and oversight than other forces. Even back in the forties the l7ftwaffe insisted on the fg42 for the paratroops; I think you could make 10 carbines 4 the price of one fg42 - they were beasts though firing a full power rifle round at 900 rpm or therabouts. I only mention that rifle becauase M16 design owes a lot to the in line config-it absorbs a hell of a lot of recoil The fact your regiment still has such old rifles is interesting though - i love the idea of say the Seals for eg hanging onto a fifty year old rifle, and their gunsmiths periodically upgrading it by hand over the years....could be a project in there somewhere. Link to post Share on other sites
ninja master of coffee Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Edit: Ive just seen a prototype pic (possibly) of a belt-fed AR10-sorry dunno how to post pics on this old phone. Stoner really did like the modular weapon even so early in his career then. Is that the one with the ammo pack on the guy's back? A custom built AR 10 could be a really interesting project, since the original Hollywood models were basically built in a small workshop it would be quite fitting also! Link to post Share on other sites
Imperator Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Yeah, the air force just fell in love with the things, but air forces in general have more money and oversight than other forces. Even back in the forties the l7ftwaffe insisted on the fg42 for the paratroops; I think you could make 10 carbines 4 the price of one fg42 - they were beasts though firing a full power rifle round at 900 rpm or therabouts. I only mention that rifle becauase M16 design owes a lot to the in line config-it absorbs a hell of a lot of recoil The fact your regiment still has such old rifles is interesting though - i love the idea of say the Seals for eg hanging onto a fifty year old rifle, and their gunsmiths periodically upgrading it by hand over the years....could be a project in there somewhere. Yeah, back then the Paras were attached to the Air Force (today they are Army), and they were the first to receive new weapons (the AR-10). But it was short-lived, since the G3 was adopted as early as 1961. And it had an advantage over the AR-10. It could use a retractable stock. Today the Paras use Galil AR rifles, and a G3TGS for the grenadier role. The AR-10's, if they still exist, would be only a couple of them, in some storage or museum. Link to post Share on other sites
JackofBlades2448 Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 The G3 is a great gun, but I didnt realize it was still used much (at least in western armies). Never heard of G3TGS but ill check that out). Big fan of the galil series in general; indiginous version of the AK are interesting to me) Cause thats heavy power for sure, and the carbine variants are very handy and light. Ive actually no idea what our paratroops use; I guess the l22 (ugly sub-carbine L85, used by naval boarding parties-theyve taken the handguard off, shortened the barrel radically and bolted a vert grip to the barrel. Its not elegant at all). I do like the l85 though. Edit: checked out the G3tgs very cool.im guessing your guys must use the g3ka4 as the base rifle? The site i looked at said any G3 rifle withthe hk79 launcher added becomes a G3 Tactical Group System (nomenclature for ya...) Link to post Share on other sites
Imperator Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 TGS is basically the G3 with the HK79 attached.Infantry, Engineers, Signals, etc. use the G3A3, Cavalry (armoured) units use the G3A4, not the K. Comandos and Special Operations use other more modern stuff (G36, Hk416 and HK417).The process of replacing the G3 is in it's final stages, and perhaps, as late as early next year, the new riffles will start being issued (G36, I believe).as for other western countries, Greece and Turkey still use the G3 as well. Link to post Share on other sites
bobthebuilder Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 TGS is basically the G3 with the HK79 attached. Infantry, Engineers, Signals, etc. use the G3A3, Cavalry (armoured) units use the G3A4, not the K. Comandos and Special Operations use other more modern stuff (G36, Hk416 and HK417). The process of replacing the G3 is in it's final stages, and perhaps, as late as early next year, the new riffles will start being issued (G36, I believe). as for other western countries, Greece and Turkey still use the G3 as well. It's in limited use with the british as well. Mostly navy units, although I've seen a couple of photos that looked to be close protection* types making use of them aswell. *I assume Royal Military Police, although it's possible they where from elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites
JackofBlades2448 Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 I think theres plently of life in the G3 platform yet; its a shame the hk33 and 53 never really caught on, as these are probably the shortest sub-carbines out there; that form factor only really caught on with the G36c, which is actually a very conventional compared to G3's roller locking system (a system thats been perfected over decades). Just goes to show that modern firearms are never really "obsolete" a sound design is a sound design: its striking how many very, very old guns are still being put to good use. Btw was there ever an RPK style lsw variant of g3? Not the 121 series, but a beefed up g3 rifle? Link to post Share on other sites
Imperator Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 Btw was there ever an RPK style lsw variant of g3? Not the 121 series, but a beefed up g3 rifle? Look up the HK21. It's basically a G3 with a quick change barrel and belt-fed. Portuguese Army infantry uses it, still (other units use the MG3, and Special Ops are fielding the HK MG4). H&K still makes the HK21E, I believe, which is a modernized export version of the original HK21. We've been straying from the topic quite a lot, btw... Link to post Share on other sites
JackofBlades2448 Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 To say the least.... Still, au revoir the g3-the last of the sturmgewhers (however you spell it). you may have been a disposable concoction of low quality pressed metals and stampings built as if the war never ended, but you could cause grievous, horrific injuries so youre a legend. Anyways back to the whole car15 thing-what exactly happened to Armalite after they sold their rifle to colt? Im pretty sure stoner become grotesquely rich through ar15 royalties, but did the company go on to make anything else of note? Btw wouldnt the stoner 63 system be a crazily cool airsoft weapon? An armoury in a suitcase; i love that. Link to post Share on other sites
bobthebuilder Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 To say the least.... Still, au revoir the g3-the last of the sturmgewhers (however you spell it). you may have been a disposable concoction of low quality pressed metals and stampings built as if the war never ended, but you could cause grievous, horrific injuries so youre a legend. Anyways back to the whole car15 thing-what exactly happened to Armalite after they sold their rifle to colt? Im pretty sure stoner become grotesquely rich through ar15 royalties, but did the company go on to make anything else of note? Btw wouldnt the stoner 63 system be a crazily cool airsoft weapon? An armoury in a suitcase; i love that. they came out with atleast a couple more designs, most notably the AR-18, but it never really caught on in the way the AR-15 design had, and the company shut down. What was left (i.e. the name and tooling) got sold to a company out in the Philippines. Eventually the name got bought by a guy in the US who started a new company under the name, they now do a load of AR10 and AR-15 based rifles, plus some other stuff. Link to post Share on other sites
Deve Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 Armalite? The AR-18, but that wasn't a Stoner design. After that they stopped designing firearms (Stoner and Miller both left in the 60s) and they effectively ceased as a company. G&P really dropped the ball on their Stoner 63A in terms on making it modular - The way it's been designed means there's no way you can flip the receiver, refit the grip, etc just because the wanted to keep using a v2 mechbox. I love mine, but it would have been so much cooler if they'd made it with a full party pack of butts, barrels and feed options to go with it. Link to post Share on other sites
BaBaBooey Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 but did the company go on to make anything else of note? I think the AR-3 was the first Stoner auto-loading rifle for ArmaLite so that's fairly note worthy I suppose. I know the AR-5 was formally adopted by the USAF, but not sure what sort of numbers were made and not sure how much Stoner was involved. The AR-7 (more or less an "improved" AR-5) was also fairly popular...even an airsoft replica was made by WA in the late 80's. I recommend the "Black Rifle" book if you're interested. It goes into the history of ArmaLite with photos and drawings of all their various prototypes. Link to post Share on other sites
JackofBlades2448 Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 Ill be sure to check that out; all i have is a few encyclopedias of guns, and they dont really get in depth. The Gun (title) is good, same for AK47 the peoples rifle. Very good read that for Eg there is an industry in selling ak's to the US Gov't, the worlds biggest buyer, and the" Kalash Economy"- how the price of one will fluctuate according to factors...when Bin Laden broadcast his videos armed with an ak74s, the price tripled and the model bwcame a status symbol. Funny you should mention the AR18-'pparantly our L85 is pretty much a bulpup version of it, which is ironicconsidering it was designed as an AR for third world countries without access to sophisticated machinery or metals/alloys. As for the Ar5 thats a new one on me ill check that, I know they tried relaunching the stoner 63 system but I dont think it was the complete system. (Stoner 96 i think...was it Robinson, something like that?) Btw can anybody think of a better name for a gun company than Armalite? Talkinv about modular weapons though, I was in the gunshop t'otherday who only sell ics and marui and no kidding three quarters of their entire display were M4's in every configuration you could possibly dream of-its actually pretty amazing how ubiquitous this carbine's become. Link to post Share on other sites
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