CAR-15 Survival Rifle?

[Deve]

I recommend the "Black Rifle" book if you're interested. It goes into the history of ArmaLite with photos and drawings of all their various prototypes.

 

Ill be sure to check that out

 

A bit of bedtime reading: http://www.scribd.com/doc/236576101/108495432-Black-Rifle-I-pdf

 

 

I know they tried relaunching the stoner 63 system but I dont think it was the complete system. (Stoner 96 i think...was it Robinson, something like that?)

 

Robinson M96. Stoner 63 in looks only, rather than function.   I'm sure Reed Knight has looked at the design too, I read he bought up a massive stash of parts when they went were going to be scrapped. EDIT - Yeah, 13 tons worth! http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1222

[JackofBlades2448]

Brilliant mate, I've got the PDF know I just need to squeeze in some time to read it between my never ending aks74u pistol project. (Stockless, and no handguard, but the vert grip from a 1928 Thompson attached to the barrel somehow, like the l85 AFV.

 

 

Thanks again for the link. Car15 buffs should seriously check out the interview too; I know the name Knight of course but had no idea he was so tight with stoner; I always assumed stoner was the talent and armalite was the money.

 

Was just thinking that in the west apart from the "gun nerds", and of course the American enthusiasts, these names would go completely unknown- everybody knows colt the gunmaker and company, but the real talent are kind of invisible. In the uk, they may recognise Enfield or BAE systems, but our indiginous weapons industry is a mystery. its not all bad; some of these guys are stinking rich but anonymous. Conversely, Kalashnikov was given hero status, festooned with honours, parades, even stamps with his face...yet in reality his monetary reward was pretty much a bus pass lol.

[sandstorm]

Well, if you want real infamy, take a look at what happened to Aimo Lahti after WW2. Heck, the Soviet members of Allied Control Commission in Finland confiscated the plans for a water boiler he drew for a friend, because anything drawn by Lahti was dangerous, especially when it had 'caliber' of over a meter... (The water tank).

[Deve]

 In the uk, they may recognise Enfield or BAE systems, but our indiginous weapons industry is a mystery.

 

Because outside of a few small companies, it's all gone. Beyond sporting firearms, there's really only Accuracy International with a global name.  Maybe Manroy too?

 

Why?  Let's look at the 20th Century service weapons:

 

Lee Enfields - Lee was dead by 1904 and had lived in Canada most of his life.

Vickers - Maxim died in 1916 and American (although he saw the light and became a naturalised Brit )

 

SLR, GPMG: Anglicised designs from foreign designed/developed products

Browning Hi Power & M2: Off the shelf US designs. (Browning dead, 1926)

 

L85 - Cramming the AR-18 into a bullpup to try and keep a failing RSAF Enfield/Royal Ordinance going.

Minimi: Direct from FN

 

No name or face to uniquely attach to any of it, unlike Browning, Garand, Stoner, Kalashnikov, etc. 

[JackofBlades2448]

Real shame, as we had an incredible firearms industry at one point, although granted these only really flourished thro7gh war, and as you say many were nicked from mother designs ie bren, Lanchester et al. I actualy got a chance to fire an Lee-Enfield target/ sporter SMLE and its simply a pleasure all round-to hold, the silk smooth action, and accuracy tho7gh these would all not apply to a mili-spec rifle.

 

So yeah, our "Arms Industry" now is really the sporting gun, and we do make some oc the finest shotguns in the world, i mean these things are works of art. In a gun free co7ntry though,its a true shame to think what'll happen to such a historic craft.

 

Edit: just remembered- we could have had the EM2 wtf happened!? This rifle wasnt just a novelty "too far ahead of its time" type- it was an axcellent rifle-but didnt chamber Nato rounds so the last true british millitary rifle was scrapped.

[paranoiddroid]

It would have been perfect had the yanks not insisted on 7.62 for nato and then changed their minds on the rifle they had picked leaving us stuffed.

 

The survival rifle is a really genuinely cool project and I hope the op can make it. If it wasn't for the price of the front sight/hand guard I would build a DOE carbine but at $500 too rich for my blood.

[JackofBlades2448]

Yeah, was reading about that and apparantly the em-2 round (4.5 i think) had superb ballistic properties, and the rifle itself really is sokething else...bulpup for the long barrel, carry handle with integrated scope; these are only coming into vogue now.

 

People bash churchill for insisting on nato, pretty much destroying what could have been a world beating rifle, but imo was a shrewd move-this is post WW2 and another major conflict lookwd quite likely; if so, sharing common ammo with the States would be pretty much necessary. My brit side is mightily that the rifle is no more than a footnote tho7gh....

 

I have a spare m4 receiver and thinking bout a CAR build myself actually and im leaning towards a fictional sub carbine, around7 inch barrel with the triangular handguard.

 

I know colt were calling there carbines "submachine guns"- anybody know if they actually made one in pistol calibre. (I only ask because I love the Colt SMG and would love to do a 'nam retro version of that)

[ninja master of coffee]

As far as I can recall the whole "Colt SMG" thing was basically just advertising. They needed to get across that it was a small, handy weapon but before the concept of a tactical carbine had really taken off. That an actual 9mm SMG conversation was done later just adds to the confusion.

 

I remember watching a short documentary on the EM2, it really was ahead of its time, a shame it got dropped but I guess strategic needs for common ammunition outweighed the advantages, after all, you don't want to run out of ammunition and find your allies actually can't supply with more. Ammunition commonality was a big factor for both NATO and WARPAC counties, add in that everyone would have a select fire or semi auto weapon with all the ammunition consumption that implies and you can see why an easy supply chain was high priority.

[JackofBlades2448]

Yeah, some concepts are just too radical/ expensive/ too ahead of theirtime. I thinki saw or read that the 4.8 ammo it takes is cominginto vogue; a lot ofthe "cutting edge" concepts are actually very old- the PDW just for example, then look at the 5.56- many troops in iraq were dusting off those obsolete M14's for the power-and RS are allbringing out a 7.62 option- it all depends on context i guess.

[Revengeful_Lobster]

Dusting off the M14s was more for accuracy at range than power. The Marines were doing just fine headshotting the baddies with their M16A4 ACOG setup.

[BaBaBooey]

Dusting off the M14s was more for accuracy at range than power. The Marines were doing just fine headshotting the baddies with their M16A4 ACOG setup.

 

I can't speak for the M14 as I've never used one and I'm far from an expert, but I've found M1A's relatively ineffective (more than 1 MOA) at certain ranges (e.g. compared to a Mk12 at the same ranges).

[JackofBlades2448]

Im not up on the latest m14 variants 'cept the ebr (ugly thing imo) i think i read marine corps like them for sharpshooting.

 

Is the socom carb8ne m14 real steel btw?

[ninja master of coffee]

Yes it's more or less a copy of the Soc 16 which is a civilian semi auto, shorter barrelled M1A rifle. TM just made it select fire and implied it was some kind of special forces rifle, it isn't.

[JackofBlades2448]

It does look pretty cool, me I love the berretta bm59 not strictly m14, also the paratroop style ruger mini 14. Hands down my favourite US wood n steel self loader is the M1 carbine though. Held a real one at a show and you wouldnt evn know you were holding it.

 

If M14 had a patchy career, the carbine just went awol-after korea did they just decide it was obsolete and sell them to civilians or abroad? Imo it would make a better police dashboard gun at least way back when...no practical use whatsoever? The bullet cant be so bad as the israelis chambered one of there modern r8fles for it (galil or tavor i believe)

[ninja master of coffee]

I don't think the M14 was a bad rifle, it was just near obsolete when it was adopted, the problem was that the US army brass ignored a lot of the findings and experience of WW2 (most fire fights take place within 300 meters, are typically won by the side with the most automatic weapons and that full power rifle rounds are excessively powerful for the purpose). While the USSR learned that lesson, used the 7.62x39mm M43 round and adopted the AK47 the U.S. army decided to stick to a full power cartridge and a rifle that favoured long range marksmanship over full auto controllability. The M14 did make a fine sniper or marksmans rifle, it's a bit heavy by modern standards but hey, it dates from the 1950s.

 

The M1 and M2 carbine were interesting weapons, the M2 was almost an assault rifle and to be honest if it had used an intermediate power spitzer type bullet rather than an extended pistol bullet it probably would have had more mileage. It was very popular with those who used it but honestly that was more down to the fact that most US soldiers in WW2 never really fired their weapons in anger so an M1 Garand was just a heavier object to carry. The M1 and M2 are very nice to carry and shoulder, light weight, compact and handy with good sights.

 

And yes, the Soc 16 does look cool, in terms of airsoft I can highly recommend the CYMA clone, inexpensive, looks gorgeous, very good accuracy, just accept that they aren't used as a military small arm.

[BigAl]

 It was very popular with those who used it but honestly that was more down to the fact that most US soldiers in WW2 never really fired their weapons in anger so an M1 Garand was just a heavier object to carry. 

 

Reckon there's a few hundred thousand Marines that fought in the Pacific might want a word with you about that statement.

[ninja master of coffee]

Sure but you're talking about a very combat oriented role in a very violent theatre. Overall, most personel who carried a weapon never fired them in anger, most sources say between 10-20% did so. In the European theatre a great deal of the fighting was done be specific units so you get groups like the US airborne who fought a lot but that's a fairly small number of soldiers overall. That's not some big dis to veterans from WW2 it's just how the fighting actually was.

[JackofBlades2448]

Yeah I heard that too- vast majority of enlisted will never shoot in anger; and these make up arguably the most important roles in a modern force-logistics, engineers, catering- but give them nothing at all and theyre defenseless so its a tight line and its not hard to see how M4 has become near ubiquitous-also, the US has so many of the damn things complete replacement would cost too much, imo itll be systematially upgraded, while the "Gucci" regiments will be the first to be dquipped with a new rifle which is already happening (like the scar as used by i think US marine Corps).

 

Personally i think M14 could easily have been improved and equiped wholesale but interestingly they were saying on one of those tales of the gun episodes that the rifle is simply too good for the bulk of enlisted personal being a precision rifle made from top of the line materiels, not to mention highly expensive.

 

Anyways, is the 7.62 soviet less powerful than the 7.62 nato?

[Revengeful_Lobster]

The M1 and M2 carbine were interesting weapons, the M2 was almost an assault rifle and to be honest if it had used an intermediate power spitzer type bullet rather than an extended pistol bullet it probably would have had more mileage. It was very popular with those who used it but honestly that was more down to the fact that most US soldiers in WW2 never really fired their weapons in anger so an M1 Garand was just a heavier object to carry. The M1 and M2 are very nice to carry and shoulder, light weight, compact and handy with good sights.

 

 

My great uncle and every other combatant in Korea threw away their M2s as soon as they could to get their hands on a Garand. The carbines were nice, light, and fun to shoot, but in no way were they popular. They were too weak. 

 

 

 

Anyways, is the 7.62 soviet less powerful than the 7.62 nato?

 

More. 7.62x54R vs. 7.62x51. Mosin-Nagants are a beast to shoot. 

[sandstorm]

The confusion comes form there being TWO Russian 7.62 cartridges.

 

The old and venerable 7.62x54R is full-scale rifle round, used still in precision rifles and some machineguns.

The 'new' as in mid-40's invention, 7.62x39mm is an intermediate round used by AK-pattern assault rifles and light machineguns. and is less powerful than 7.62NATO.

 

I think there were very few automatic rifles in 7.62x54R; pretty much everything after the war that Russians came up was in 7.62x39 until they went and adopted 5.45x39mm. One thing Russians have been pretty consistent since Great Patriotic War has been the shell, from 5.45 to 9mm caliber, they have been trying to fit them into same shells with different neck setting.

[Revengeful_Lobster]

The only semi-automatic rifles in x54R I can think of are the SVT40 and Dragunov (and subsequent knock offs).

[paranoiddroid]

The carbine being weak is more rumor than fact and typIcally used by those discussing Korea to avoid talking about poor training causing soldiers to engage at wildly optimiatic ranges and with poor marksmanship. Thus stories like it bouncing off ice cold coats. Similarly stories about 5.56 being underpowered coming from Afghanistan and engaging at ranges outside of capability.

 

Much the same way people whine someone isn't hit taking when their rounds are falling 30 ft short in airsoft.

 

The isn't going to be one weapon for all wars and issuing one standard weapon means it will be a compromise.

 

Back to the survival build how is that going mate? I really want to see it work maybe check out ar15.com to see if someone on the retro forum can source either an original stock or details for construction/a repro of the specialist bit's. There are some dam clever guys there building amazing repro's of prototypes and long scrapped ideas.

[JackofBlades2448]

Maybe check out forgotten weapons too? Occasionaly they do print blueprints, bit i tgink some guesswork will come into it for sure.