Achieving Max Range and Accuracy with 1 Joule and Under

[vanevery]

Achieving Max Range and Accuracy with 1 Joule and Under

 

This is an official Discussion Thread on this topic.

It is not a Gun Build Thread, so save those great ideas you have for an official 1 Joule and Under Gun Build Thread.

 

Let us Begin:

The subject of long range shooting in airsoft seems to be a priority interest with the majority of airsofters.

Whether it Sniper and DMR, or just Field Rifles, the average airsofter wants their guns to shoot long distance with a high rate of accuracy.

 

Airsoft originated in Japan in the 1970's.

Manufacturers such as Masudaya, Fujimi, and Matsushiro began to pave the way.

Then Maruzin and Tokyo Marui progressed the quality and technology.

Tokyo Marui is credited with designing, manufacturing, and selling the first AEG's on the market.

Their specifications of internal and external parts are industry standard and are the baseline for all airsoft manufacturers, even those that attempt to improve on the designs with proprietary parts.

 

Joule and FPS limits vary all over the world.

Different nations have different views on what power output defines a fire arm as well as what defines safe play for airsoft specifically.

Naturally, the FPS and Joule limits of Japan would set the baseline for airsoft game play standards.

Japan enforces a strict limit of .98 Joules (325fps).

Many countries around the world enforce a limit  of 1 Joule (330fps).

 

In the USA, it is fair to say that Joule and FPS limits have been fairly relaxed compared to other countries.

Some States and Field Owners enforce strict power output rules, others do not.

Insurance companies are more often the reason FPS limits have been reduced at major fields and major event style games across the USA over the last couple of years.

This trend continues to grow.

 

From the technical side of building airsoft guns for long range, we in the USA have had the luxury of learning all the positives and negatives that high FPS can produce.

Though the USA has some of the best and most innovative and accomplished Airsoft Techs in the world, other nations often consider their own Airsoft Techs to be more skilled and capable, for having achieved great results with less power output from their guns. Personally, I have great respect for all the Airsoft Techs around the world and learn from them all, as most do as well.

 

As someone who has spent the last two years invested in DMR projects and learning all one can about shooting long range, and accuracy at long range, in airsoft, I have never built an airsoft gun for long range specifically with less than 400fps. Given the great technical and performance achievements of Airsoft Techs that have the restrictions placed on them of 1 Joule or less power output, my interest is peaked in seeing what we Americans can do under the same restrictions.

 

So, I challenge the airsoft community in the United States to focus your attention over the next 12-24 months to build airsoft guns that can not only meet, but beat the longest distances shot, and the highest accuracy rates recorded, with the restriction of using no more than 1 Joule power output. I challenge you further to adhere to the standard set by Japan of .98 Joule.

This will be a focus of my own DMR and long range testing and technical work.

 

What do you think?

[Horsem4n]

Seems like a pretty cool idea, but not entirely farfetched. Japanese airsmiths, originally responsible for large bore barrels and flat hops, have figured this out.

 

In a few weeks, ill be able to test this with my AK, being that its just about mechanically perfect, ill drop an m90 spring in and see if it keeps its monster range with my tight bore barrel and flat hop. If it fails, ill acquire a large bore barrel to try again.

 

The main reason I like high powers is the factor of the bb making enough impact on its target for the target to even feel it and call the hit.

one thing I learned while working at an indoor field is that most players are so keyed in to feeling hits from stronger guns that they don't even feel the bbs from weaker ones really often, causing them not to be aware of the hits.

[Azubi]

The main reason I like high powers is the factor of the bb making enough impact on its target for the target to even feel it and call the hit.

one thing I learned while working at an indoor field is that most players are so keyed in to feeling hits from stronger guns that they don't even feel the bbs from weaker ones really often, causing them not to be aware of the hits.

I sort of see your point. I have a TM MP7 AEP that shoots straight and reasonably far out, but it's such low power means people hardly notice it. Still, having said that, I have played at 328fps with .2s in a normal pace for UK airsoft and found very few people not feeling hits when compared to playing at 450fps with .25s on a Filipino-run speedball type field where the faster pace, and excitable personalities seem to mean people simply don't notice getting hit.

[vanevery]

A few questions.

 

I am in the beginning processes of building a couple set-ups for this.

I have more than enough parts from owning and working on airsoft guns for almost 6 years.

I am just narrowing down my approach at this point.

 

Question 1:

What Main Spring power rating do I need to not exceed 1 Joule measured using .20's and what brand?

I realize that the answer is either an m90 or m100.

The problem is the actual spring power per brand can be different.

I do realize that many factors influence power output and that the Main Spring is just one of those factors.

I am just trying to find out what is the best rating and brand of Main Spring to purchase for this.

 

Question 2:

Are there in depth write ups and guides already written and published somewhere in the forum universe from someone who has taken on such a project?

If I could look at what has already been done and the efforts already made in countries where the power limit is 1 Joule, it would be nice information to have.

 

Question 3:

Are there official records stating distance and accuracy at this power output?

Knowing this would give me a baseline to measure the shooting performance of my own guns against.

[Lone_Bullet]

Since there are SO many variables, I doubt there are official records off bb shooting. But I say an A4 sized paper at 60m is well nice for conventional hop systems

[Revengeful_Lobster]

Japanese airsmiths, originally responsible for large bore barrels and flat hops, have figured this out.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how a wide bore barrel is supposed to work. I mistakenly bought a 6.20mm barrel for my TM G36K and tried it for the hell of it. Flat hop, bridge-type nub. My velocity dropped a good 5m/s, but I could consistently hit torso-sized targets at 40m. The problem was that all of my shots sliced about 2-3m right, which made aiming impossible. I kept the flat hop/bridge nub combo and put the stock TM barrel back in. My velocity somehow increased 5m/s from bone stock (that would be +10m/s from the wide bore barrel). I haven't gotten a chance to test range.

 

 

 

The main reason I like high powers is the factor of the bb making enough impact on its target for the target to even feel it and call the hit.

With the vast majority of players wearing chest-mounted gear I don't see the point. But I digress. 

[renegadecow]

^

Even if one isn't able to feel a hit, an honest player would be able to call himself out from the sound it makes on impact. Too weak (from having traveled a good distance) and it would be audibly indistinguishable from ricochet or not heard at all.

[vanevery]

Since there are SO many variables, I doubt there are official records off bb shooting. But I say an A4 sized paper at 60m is well nice for conventional hop systems

Right.

 

What I believe is important, fun, and interesting, is to in fact establish official records.

How to go about this exactly, I do not currently have all the answers to, just some ideas.

My purposes relate to max distance and max effective range.

 

1 Joule is actually a great place to start for three main reasons.

- It is the max power output aloud in some countries where airsoft is very popular.

So, it is relevant specifically to these countries.

- It is around the fps limit(330fps) of many CQB fields and indoor arenas.

- It is a tremendous technical challenge for achieving max distance and max effective range vs higher levels of power output.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how a wide bore barrel is supposed to work. I mistakenly bought a 6.20mm barrel for my TM G36K and tried it for the hell of it. Flat hop, bridge-type nub. My velocity dropped a good 5m/s, but I could consistently hit torso-sized targets at 40m. The problem was that all of my shots sliced about 2-3m right, which made aiming impossible. I kept the flat hop/bridge nub combo and put the stock TM barrel back in. My velocity somehow increased 5m/s from bone stock (that would be +10m/s from the wide bore barrel). I haven't gotten a chance to test range.

 

 

 

With the vast majority of players wearing chest-mounted gear I don't see the point. But I digress. 

 

Wide Bore Barrels:

The Wide Bore Barrel provides a cushion of air underneath the bb at it rides along the top of the Inner Barrel until it exits the muzzle.

The larger size WBB's, such as the 6.2mm, were originally designed with Fusion Engine guns in mind, such as Polar Star's.

 

In our AEG's and Sniper Rifles, the .08 spec difference between the size of the bb and the size of the Inner Barrel is what universally designates the Inner Barrel as Wide Bore Barrel.

Example:

BB Size: 6mm

Typical/standard manufacture Inner Barrel bore size: 6.08

Difference: .08mm.

 

Calling Hits:

This entire project has more to do with establishing official records for both experienced techs and for the average airsoft player/tech.

It is intended to get the most distance and accuracy out of your airsoft gun at a max power limit of 1 Joule.

It is a project that is relevant and makes itself available to all airsoft techs and players.

[Horsem4n]

Larger bore barrels were not made for p* style guns, they have been in use in japan for a few years before those systems were eve popular. Befor p*s, all that existed for electro pneumatics was asahi w2ks and custom guns built with sprinkler valves.

 

I don't remember the actual idea behind how wide bore barrels are supposed to work. but I understand one of the ideas was that is was supposed to minimize negative affects to the bbs back spin.

Though, like TK twist barrels, I think it only works like its supposed to within a certain FPS range. At american FPS ranges, performance differences may not be very perceptible between bore sizes. As long as the bore is smooth and precise.

 

Anyway, I may drop out of testing. I've started seeing someone. money prioritization and all that.

 

For testing, I was going to use a human sized target with a positive, audible reaction. Like a metal trash can.

[vanevery]

Been working all weekend on this.

It will not take long before I have at least two up and running.

Mainly doing the prep work right now and documenting my work.

I intend to a gun build thread for this.

Not sure if I will fully document every single gun I build for this, but will at least one-two of them.

Intend to get all shooting performance on video.

[Zombie00]

I'd try to create the biggest possible pressure spike in a short barrel AEG (as long as the measuring is done in FPS with .20). Then use some heavier bbs to play... But if that isn't possible, just focus on having a stable build (having something that pushes the hop-up against the gearbox properly, pressing the inner barrel to the outer barrel, etc) and consistency, of course.

I don't think there is much else to it.

 

 

Been working all weekend on this.

It will not take long before I have at least two up and running.

Mainly doing the prep work right now and documenting my work.

I intend to a gun build thread for this.

Not sure if I will fully document every single gun I build for this, but will at least one-two of them.

Intend to get all shooting performance on video.

 

 

Well, I'm no expert, but those parts look awfully small, that must be some sort of micro gearbox or something like that .

[tinkle60]

..

 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[vanevery]

Received my Main Springs this week and O-rings for this and other projects.

I placed a larger order with Clandestine Airsoft and decided to go ahead and purchase my springs there for the Main Springs.

I ordered the O-rings from McMaster.com 

 

 

Main Springs:

SHS m90

 

Core SP90:

 

ZCI m100:

This one did not arrive in a package like the rest.

I did order the ZCI m100, and can only presume this is in fact that spring.

 

 

O-rings.

Viton:

Standard size Piston Head O-ring: McMaster.com  9464K29

 

Bore-up Piston Head O-ring: McMaster.com 9464K81

 

Will do a build thread on this project specifically.

So, I will be updating there once all the guns are built and put together.

[vanevery]

Been working hard at getting my initial three guns ready over the last week.

Just have a few things left to do before all three are ready for assembly.

Once the first three guns are assembled, all my attention will focus on barrel work.

Will have several different barrel set-ups for these guns.

 

I can also go ahead with initial field testing once the guns  are assembled.

The plan is to use a standard drop-in bucking set-up at first with each gun in order to establish a baseline of performance, and to help me identify a ball park estimate of optimal bb weight.

While this is going on, I will focus on the barrel work for this, and other projects.

 

Just a few things here.

 

This is really going to be a lot of fun.

[Manxmadman]

Consider hitting up Kingdom of Airsoft on Facebook. The guy who runs it is beyond helpful and knows a hell of a lot about installing R hops for use with heavy weight ammo, which will hold momentum and trajectory better which will help in trying to achieve what you're after.

 

He's installed R hops in AEPs and the like with good results so that is probably some transferable knowledge.

[vanevery]

Consider hitting up Kingdom of Airsoft on Facebook. The guy who runs it is beyond helpful and knows a hell of a lot about installing R hops for use with heavy weight ammo, which will hold momentum and trajectory better which will help in trying to achieve what you're after.

 

He's installed R hops in AEPs and the like with good results so that is probably some transferable knowledge.

 

 

Appreciate the advice.

Definitely a fan of Hop-up mods.

Been doing them for a while now.

 

I have several different approaches to Hop-up Mods.

Modding the barrel in my aeg's to accommodate a VSR style barrel window for R-hop is probably the one I like best.

[tquilha]

Don't know how this will relate to AEGs, but I have a TM L96 that is at 1J power.

Only upgrade was a TK twist barrel.

With this gun I can hit man sized targets at 60m all day long.

[vanevery]

Update:

I finished the first gun in rotation last weekend.

When I began the initial stages of assembly on my guns for this project, I realized something.

I did not have the most baseline approach gun represented.

Every gun I was putting together had Full Cylinders, after-marker Piston Heads, and so on.

So, I decided to put together a gun that was pretty much all stock except for some DIY mods and an after-market O-ring.

Something that would represent a TM base gun, in my case a TM compatible China Clone JG.

A gun that would represent something off the shelf, and that would relate to what many people had.

 

So I used an all stock JG M4 base Gearbox, enhanced version.

Everything is all stock.

DIY Mods include:

- Added Sorbo.

- Cylinder Head / Cylinder Sealant Mod.

- Basic shim job.

- Enlarging the Piston Head ports.

 

After-market parts include:

- Viton O-ring.

- SHS m90 Spring yielding 293fps (Hop-up Unit turned all the way off).

I am sure will drop to at least the TM standard of 288fps when the Hop-up is set for level fight.

 

Basic Approach:

The basic plan is start out with a stock Hop-up Unit and barrel, and then experiment with barrel lengths to find the right one for each specific gun.

This is with an old, beat up Hop-up Unit and lightly used JG Blue Bucking in order to make use of these parts.

No Hop-up mods at all.

Also will use this time to get a read on the best ammo weight for the gun.

Then, will progress to Hop-up mods.

 

Notes:

- I need to open this gun again and re-shim it.

I did not shim using the Bevel/Pinion Gear method, which I typically do on my upgrade builds. This build has such low levels of stress, I am not immediately seeing the need for every possible approach to a full tune-up.

I think the height of the Gears are ok, just too many shims on the top of the Bevel Gear to reduce "play".

 

-The FPS varies wildly.

I am getting a +/- 10fps deviation.

The Air Nozzle does not seem to sit right on the Tappet Plate.

It tends to want to raise up and lift off its seating position.

I will address this.

 

- I may switch the Piston out.

The current Piston is the JG Orange Piston form the enhanced version.

There is nothing wrong with it, I just might save it for a different gun and use one of the JG Creme Pistons.

 

- The Cylinder, Cylinder Head, added Sorbo, and Sealant Mod was done years ago in this specific assembly. 

It is all perfectly good and usable, so I am just dropping this in.

 

Random Pictures:

[vanevery]

Ok, time for an update.

 

Today I planned to open up the one gun I had completed in this project.

This in order to re-shim and replace the nozzle and Piston Head.

This was all I had planned for today regarding airsoft.

 

I woke up surprisingly early for a day off of work, around 7am.

I got a good jump on the day.

The work on the gun did not take long on the gun.

90 minutes maybe.

So, I was able to get out and test the gun today, and get everything on video.

 

Work done.

I did re-shim.

Decided to file the Air Nozzle groove a deeper channel, vs replacing the Air Nozzle.

Then chose to use a straight pick to scrape out the Tappet Plate grooves that hold the Air Nozzle.

This combo solved the issue of the Air Nozzle constantly raising up in its seating on the Tappet Plate.

I also decided to use a much better condition BB-ramp than the one  initially installed.

All of this combined solved the wild fps variations I was getting previously.

It also raised my fps from 293 fps to 315fps consistently.

 

Video:

(Details can be found in description box)

 

- The Firing Lane / 4 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDOdqL1rtBM

 

The full 18 minute video of the entire shooting segment using .30's.

It is left unedited to give the viewer a realistic view of a shooting segment dealing with wind, changing mags, reloading, etc...

The performance was very good despite the wind, but the wind caused me problems all day.

The video really shows as much what it is like calculating and adjusting  for wind conditions more than anything else.

 

- Target: Mailbox.

- Long pauses where nothing is happening is me waiting on the wind to calm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I2bb430eYE

 

Summary:

I was very pleased at the performance of a gun shooting at less than 1 Joule.

In some respects was surprised, in other respects I was not.