Opinions on GMR MG theory?

[ardrummer292]

The video in question is here:

 

 

I wrote the "gunner's bible," which is a very GPMG-centric article in hindsight. What do you all think about GMR's take on MG employment? Please, keep any anti-team bias private. I'm only interested in your thoughts on what they have to say.

[CatgutViolin]

Did he just say at 6:30ish that a fake suppressor on a toy electric gun is good for reducing its 'signature'? Oh boy.

 

I know you said to keep any anti-team bias private but I can't help shake the feeling that these guys are playing, or think they're playing, an entirely different game from the rest of us. I've read your guide on MGing in airsoft and found it a largely practical application of real-world machine gun theory, but this guy is outright saying at 17:55ish to just treat an MG like an M4 that you can spam with- no wonder they don't find it terribly useful or practical. In a sport where an MG is largely just a bulkier, heavier rifle with a few strengths that only come into play when used a specific way, if you're going to just spam BBs you might as well get a Polar Star and flash mags and be done with it.

[Yoroiden]

To me the idea that one should think of an MG as 'just an m4 with extended mag' is to misunderstand the role of being a machine gunner.

[Lone_Bullet]

Need to comment on the video itself first. Great idea adding a song into a video with barely average audio and then play it at basically the same volume. I had to REALLY concentrate, but then, I have ear damage. 

Will edit this post when I've finially watched the whole video

 

[Edit] I can't form an opinion on this video, audio fatiques mee too much. 

[Got Wood?]

I'll also watch the video when I have time, but going on the thumbnail, looks like they don't even know how to hold an LMG. Let alone advise anyone on how to use one.

 

I imagine it follows the same theory as all their tactics. Bum rush it as a unit and spam everything with rounds whilst wearing as much gear as possible so they don't look like average airsofters who do the same.

[3vi1-D4n]

If you play in a game where it allows mid caps or hi caps, and there is no real advantage between a MG and an M4 then yeah he's on the money.  Its just another M4 but with a larger hicap.  M4 with 300 rounds that has the same range as a M249 pretty much acts as an LMG/SAW anyways.

 

Until the LMG/SAW has an FPS and or range advantage then you cannot deploy it as anything other than an Individual weapon.

 

Hence why the events I run, all individual weapons are on low/real capacity while MGs have +100fps ~ 40m more range than individual weapons.  Then, people will start using MGs as a support weapon.

[ardrummer292]

Did he just say at 6:30ish that a fake suppressor on a toy electric gun is good for reducing its 'signature'? Oh boy.

[...]

 

To be fair, I have a suppressor on my C8 that I filled with felt washers I got at a musical instrument shop (such as these: http://www.kenstanton.com/Cymbal-Stand-Felt-Washers-set-of-2-p/tam7081p.htm?gclid=CMXJmPCC6sYCFdUUHwodqdACXA). They do an excellent job of reducing the muzzle report. That said, you won't see a can on the muzzle of my L110 anytime soon.

 

I'm glad you thought the AW guide was helpful.

 

---

 

It is readily apparent that GMR's members likely don't have much formal machine gun employment training, which most airsofters don't. Despite this lack of real world experience, I think they might have a few valid points. Their take on MG employment heavily emphasizes the mobile offensive role of belt-fed systems. These techniques could work very well, despite being a good bit different than the ones I wrote.

 

Running in a cohesive unit with a set of thoroughly trained TTPs seems to be their usual team environment. I can see how using their employment techniques would work in that specific setting. After playing as a rifleman/assaulter for the past few years, I'd like to give their ideas a fair shake before discounting them.

[Kratisto]

To be fair, I have a suppressor on my C8 that I filled with felt washers I got at a musical instrument shop (such as these: http://www.kenstanton.com/Cymbal-Stand-Felt-Washers-set-of-2-p/tam7081p.htm?gclid=CMXJmPCC6sYCFdUUHwodqdACXA). They do an excellent job of reducing the muzzle report. That said, you won't see a can on the muzzle of my L110 anytime soon.

 

I think the "oh boy" above is because of this: http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/200985-so-you-want-a-silencer/

 

According to this, in the US working* airsoft supressors are regulated under the same laws as real ones, meaning owning them without the NFA paperwork ($$$) is a felony and a federal crime. So...

 

*fakes or empty mockups are fine

[ardrummer292]

Ooooh, I've been a baaaad boy.

 

If the ATF feels the need to kick my door down because of a fake suppressor on a toy gun, they should probably reevaluate their priorities.

 

/derail

[CatgutViolin]

To be fair, I have a suppressor on my C8 that I filled with felt washers I got at a musical instrument shop (such as these: http://www.kenstanton.com/Cymbal-Stand-Felt-Washers-set-of-2-p/tam7081p.htm?gclid=CMXJmPCC6sYCFdUUHwodqdACXA). They do an excellent job of reducing the muzzle report. That said, you won't see a can on the muzzle of my L110 anytime soon.

 

I'm glad you thought the AW guide was helpful.

 

---

 

It is readily apparent that GMR's members likely don't have much formal machine gun employment training, which most airsofters don't. Despite this lack of real world experience, I think they might have a few valid points. Their take on MG employment heavily emphasizes the mobile offensive role of belt-fed systems. These techniques could work very well, despite being a good bit different than the ones I wrote.

 

Running in a cohesive unit with a set of thoroughly trained TTPs seems to be their usual team environment. I can see how using their employment techniques would work in that specific setting. After playing as a rifleman/assaulter for the past few years, I'd like to give their ideas a fair shake before discounting them.

I think the "oh boy" above is because of this: http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/200985-so-you-want-a-silencer/

 

According to this, in the US working* airsoft supressors are regulated under the same laws as real ones, meaning owning them without the NFA paperwork ($$$) is a felony and a federal crime. So...

 

*fakes or empty mockups are fine

 

More that knowing the team as I do, I strongly doubt that they have done the work to make those suppressors actually functional rather than just to look super-HSLD-tierwun-2operator4me, and it would not surprise me if they have convinced themselves that it reduces the report of the gun anyways. That it would technically constitute a felony is just the icing on the cake.

 

Like I said before, I think in the context of airsoft the role of a short-ranged, offensive spamcannon is better addressed with platforms other than a bulky MG, and it sacrifices a lot of the potential utility of the platform. I'd much sooner put a box magazine on a carbine and use that as part of a mobile team in MOUT than try to employ an M249 or M240 in that role, and if I were lugging an M240 or M249 I'd be looking for positions from which to establish fire superiority, suppress occupied areas of cover, and use plunging fire to provide long-ranged covering fire for advancing teams- not stack up with an assault team and lament my inability to clear rooms with a SAW.

 

Really, without special rules for MGs like 3vi-D4n mentioned, the biggest advantage I'd give a modern M249, M240, M60, or PKM AEG over M4s with box mags is reliability during sustained bursts and across thousands of rounds. If you're staying mobile with the maneuver element and not taking the opportunity to set up and establish volume of fire from a semi-static protected position as the base of fire, I'd say you're squandering that advantage.

[Tw1tch]

Do people put suppressors on real LMGs? That's a genuine question but my gut says no.

 

First off a primary role of a LMG is to provide suppressing fire no? So being loud and intimidating is what you want. I imagine the action isn't very quiet either so suppressing the muzzle noise won't be as effective.

 

Don't machine gun barrels get very hot as it is? I always thought (and I'm prepared to be educated, especially with advances in technology) that a suppressor would probably melt under sustained fire. I suppose you could use a similar material to the actual barrel though?

 

I'm genuinely interested to know if real forces do it though. I remember reading about some guy who was caught off guard when one of his SAW gunners opened up as everyone else was using suppressors.

[ardrummer292]

Do people put suppressors on real LMGs? That's a genuine question but my gut says no.

 

I'm sure it has happened before, but it was probably for some sort of weird special mission.

[blobface]

Do people put suppressors on real LMGs? That's a genuine question but my gut says no.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QavKtVIgFg 

 

This GMR video kinda reminds me why I could never jump on the hate bandwagon for GMR despite stories that circulars around, they put so much effort into their videos and are so patient about going through their points (whether you agree with them or not), their NV videos and some of their gear ideas are really good, they might take it too really seriously, but they are (he is?) clearly really passionate about the hobby. 

[3vi1-D4n]

[ardrummer292]

Fellas, I think Twitch was asking about suppressed machine guns in actual military operations.

[Tw1tch]

Fellas, I think Twitch was asking about suppressed machine guns in actual military operations.

Can't watch the videos but yeah, this. Real steel LMGs with sound suppressors.

[CatgutViolin]

I've heard of SEALs and the like using suppressors for special operations kinda stuff, but as far as general military use goes nobody suppresses machine guns. It's pretty pointless for most of the things you'd use a machine gun for, supersonic ammo is still pretty loud going through a can, it adds more length, bulk, and weight to an already long, bulky, and heavy weapon, decent suppressors are expensive and every military is cheap, they get shot out if you use them extensively (especially on full auto), it's another thing to need to maintain and supply logistically, and you need a can for every spare barrel.

 

Throw in a battlefield's worth of artillery, armored vehicles, and other assorted Really Loud And Obvious Things and the advantages to having a machine gun that's quiet seem pretty minute.

[Skarclaw]

There are some absolutely ridiculous elbow posistions going on in that vid lol. But otherwise they are on the money... airsoft support weapons ARE aegs with drum mags. I think the idea of walking fire seems a good idea.

Did he just say at 6:30ish that a fake suppressor on a toy electric gun is good for reducing its 'signature'? Oh boy.

 

I know you said to keep any anti-team bias private but I can't help shake the feeling that these guys are playing, or think they're playing, an entirely different game from the rest of us. I've read your guide on MGing in airsoft and found it a largely practical application of real-world machine gun theory, but this guy is outright saying at 17:55ish to just treat an MG like an M4 that you can spam with- no wonder they don't find it terribly useful or practical. In a sport where an MG is largely just a bulkier, heavier rifle with a few strengths that only come into play when used a specific way, if you're going to just spam BBs you might as well get a Polar Star and flash mags and be done with it.

 

Yeah an MG is pretty much an M4 you can spam with... the only reason not to get a polarstar and flashmags is game restrictions and cause you like the gun - which is fine. 

 

If you play in a game where it allows mid caps or hi caps, and there is no real advantage between a MG and an M4 then yeah he's on the money.  Its just another M4 but with a larger hicap.  M4 with 300 rounds that has the same range as a M249 pretty much acts as an LMG/SAW anyways.

 

Until the LMG/SAW has an FPS and or range advantage then you cannot deploy it as anything other than an Individual weapon.

 

Hence why the events I run, all individual weapons are on low/real capacity while MGs have +100fps ~ 40m more range than individual weapons.  Then, people will start using MGs as a support weapon.

 

100% agreed. 

 

More that knowing the team as I do, I strongly doubt that they have done the work to make those suppressors actually functional rather than just to look super-HSLD-tierwun-2operator4me, and it would not surprise me if they have convinced themselves that it reduces the report of the gun anyways. That it would technically constitute a felony is just the icing on the cake.

 

Like I said before, I think in the context of airsoft the role of a short-ranged, offensive spamcannon is better addressed with platforms other than a bulky MG, and it sacrifices a lot of the potential utility of the platform. I'd much sooner put a box magazine on a carbine and use that as part of a mobile team in MOUT than try to employ an M249 or M240 in that role, and if I were lugging an M240 or M249 I'd be looking for positions from which to establish fire superiority, suppress occupied areas of cover, and use plunging fire to provide long-ranged covering fire for advancing teams- not stack up with an assault team and lament my inability to clear rooms with a SAW.

 

Really, without special rules for MGs like 3vi-D4n mentioned, the biggest advantage I'd give a modern M249, M240, M60, or PKM AEG over M4s with box mags is reliability during sustained bursts and across thousands of rounds. If you're staying mobile with the maneuver element and not taking the opportunity to set up and establish volume of fire from a semi-static protected position as the base of fire, I'd say you're squandering that advantage.

 

"fire superiority, suppress occupied areas of cover, and use plunging fire to provide long-ranged covering fire for advancing teams" - can all be achieved with an m4 and a flashmag.

 

Buy a SAW cause you think it's cool and be done with it IMO. 

[Wingmann]

Hence why the events I run, all individual weapons are on low/real capacity while MGs have +100fps ~ 40m more range than individual weapons.  Then, people will start using MGs as a support weapon.

Here, the general rule is <300fps for secondaries 5m MED, <350fps for rifles 10m MED ,<400fps for MGs 15m MED, <450fps for DMRs 20m MED, and <550fps 30m MED for bolt action sniper rifles.

 

That gives every class its own operational advantage and disadvantage, and it seems to work.

[Bando]

GMR are well known for being one of those groups that thinks because they wear the gear and look like operators then people should treat them as such.

They have been banned from multiple sites due to unsafe practices such as opening a lift shaft and repelling down it and jumping from the roof of one building to another....

[Skarclaw]

GMR are well known for being one of those groups that thinks because they wear the gear and look like operators then people should treat them as such.

They have been banned from multiple sites due to unsafe practices such as opening a lift shaft and repelling down it and jumping from the roof of one building to another....

 

read the OP...

[3vi1-D4n]

Here, the general rule is <300fps for secondaries 5m MED, <350fps for rifles 10m MED ,<400fps for MGs 15m MED, <450fps for DMRs 20m MED, and <550fps 30m MED for bolt action sniper rifles.

 

That gives every class its own operational advantage and disadvantage, and it seems to work.

 

Yeah everyone is different.  I have seen everyone else with different rules etc.  there is no one best way

 

I don't run games, I structure my events on very defined scenarios with different options for the team to make each with its consequences.   With each event there is specific learning objectives, with specific controls and debrief/feedback periods, so MED/high FPS issues and player cheating doesn't come into play because we all sit down and talk about how both sides did in each engagement.

 

Hence-  No MEDs.

 

MGs and DMRs sit at 450-550fps, but have locap or limited ammo per scenario,

 

Rifles and SMGs are on real caps/low caps and can also shoot at which ever FPS they want.  However because most use GBB, SMGs are usually below 400fps, assault rifles around 480 at max. AEG users don't feel they are outgunned because GBBs have less accuracy and everyone has 30 rounds.  People use SEMI until they have to spam. 

 

There is no arms race in my events because the scenario creates interdependence on each other.  Those who carry machineguns will want to keep carrying machine guns/DMRs but realise its a big responsibility to use it properly so many shy away.  Same with team leaders, as they realise the fate of the team hangs in their balance, which comes out of post-contact debriefs.

 

Different ways of using airsoft for our enjoyment

[spetsnazdave87]

Without blowing smoke up his backside, ardrummer's Support weapon guide to airsoft is hands down the best material EVER written on the subject.


This is just GMR talking and trying to get some exposure after lying low following the cocaine/knife threats/yelling at veterans/getting banned from everywhere reputation... 

[Kratisto]

Here is the guide mentioned above: The Airsoft Automatic Weapon Operator's Guide, by ardrummer292 http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/198304-the-airsoft-automatic-weapon-operators-guide/

 

Basically, using a MG like a assault rifle with a big magazine is a mistake. This may not be apparent to people playing in small fields, CQB, speed games, or events than are more LARPing that actual milsim with little actual real teamwork involved (no matter how much toys and fancy gear they have).

 

MGs are the most team-oriented guns both in airsoft games and the real military. Unlike other roles, there is no such thing a lone wolf support gunner. With proper rules, big enough fields and organized teams, MGs are the key to win objectives and beat enemy teams.
 

[Danke]

Well like the guy on TV said "even a broke *albatross* clock is right twice a day".

 

They've got the right idea gleaned from real world TTPs but maybe they don't have the knack of explaining it perfectly.

 

It all boils down to the same as A-292s guide. Get yourself aggressively in the action every time there's a contact. You can't lie on the ground 200' from the fight waiting for it to come to you.

 

I've seen it and I'm sure others have too. A new player within their first year of gaming goes from rifleman to saw gunner because they've become frustrated with an AEG and feel that the gun is the cause of this and a bigger one will solve their problems (see also sniper and DMR). Then they find out they're expected to run till they drop to provide cover to the team and they're even less happy.

 

On the flip side of that you can also find whole teams that go limp when a support gun is on their side: they won't flank and attack aggressively while the cover fire is going down. 

 

So used properly a support gun is a huge force multiplier. Used wrong it's just a big heavy AEG and you can get a TM Spetz with 20 high caps to hose if that's the word of the day.

 

Regular AEGs with drums etc. vs. a M246 for example? Well in the long run the 249 has a reliability edge but I would honestly say in the last 5 years the quality/reliability of airsoft has skyrocketed. And while gas guns haven't fully bloomed the hybrid setups of a Daytona Gun or a Polarstar are viable. It still comes down to site rules though and most don't seem to want a MP5 used as a GPMG and I'd have to say that's a fair cop.