"Professinal" traning weapon vs GBBR vs brands of gear

[3vi1-D4n]

Majority of airsoft is basically modelling, instead of modelling trains and planes, its yourself, in an environment where it is a fantasy world where one an be all they want to be.  The guns and gear merely enhances the fantasy.  So buying real gear and weapons that mimic someone in a warzone, is the way to show the commitment to the game.  Its like fashionware, where people to show that they are "in", hence they will buy whatever clothing that is associated with the lifestyle they have selected.  There is a bit of narcissism, a bit of fantasy seeking, and a thrill seeking in these type of players.  These players are not interested in recreating the experience.

 

A small minority of us play for other reasons.  Some want to experience real as possible combat (i.e. Martial artist), some of us like to coach teams, or to create the fantasy world/that we may have lived in (ex military types who like to plan events).  Others are looking for the one-on-one feeling of hunting an adversary of equal/worthy foe (hunter/hannibal types)

 

I am a coach and a game planner.  I see airsoft toys as a sporting equipment, just as gear, maps, compasses.  I advocate simple $30 chest rigs and Olive green uniforms because it takes the runway model away from the essence of the game, to create a deeper richer experience.

 

PTWs are no where as realistic as GBBRs, yes you get the shot to shot consistency from any AEG but RS in combat doesn't have that shot consistency either.  The other thing is in RS, we get away with suppressing with 20-30 round magazines, 120rnds...er no.  Its not about the individual weapon, its about relying on your buddies and your planning to get through the day.

 

Likewise with gear.  NVGs are cool and yes some cheap gear will show up in the dark, majority doesn't.  There are tactics to overcome NVGs that involves nothing more than a $3 LED torch.  Cheap  gear will get you a long way, its how you fight as a team and plan as a unit that is more important than whos got real TACOS.

 

First thing I do with newbies on a green role field is to get everyone to crawl 30m in their fully ladden rigs, then get them to load a mag and fire their weapons.  All the geardos with their TACOS, open top mag pouches, chest rigs and unharnessed combat belts, drop bucket loads of mags, and get cr6p in the magazines so that they can't load in the rifle.  

 

I make it very clear that guys who come to my events that, they are there because they want a more enriching experience, and not there to talk about the latest Multicam tropics they bought.  We are here to show you that all that tactical fashion ware does not give you a better experience, But some guy with a green shirt who watches his arcs  will.

[Lone_Bullet]

Man, you're awfully biased...

 

If a guy wants a fashion show with him as a model, more power to him.

You don't get to say he can't do that.

 

As for cheap gear, have you ever games in the mud with your soles falling off your boots?

Your chestrig hung on a sharp branch and torn when you sprinted trough some brush?

Your US$3 led light's clicky button fail/fall apart so you can feel you way out of a bunker in pitch dark?

Your mags/replica not feeding because crappy brand BB's, deformed plastic mags ?

 

I want things to work. Not just in Airsoft btw, also in real life I want things to last.

 

Another thing. You load pouches with the mag's BB opening first right? Right? They're in the up-side-down?

Tell me then what the difference is between open top, bungee and a velcro top pouch with 2 GIANT holes next to the velcro flaps?

Mud gets in regardless. Pouches have a drainage hole, or should have.

Only NFM and some german manufactures make mag pouches that are completely enclosed afaik.

 

Players need to be able to focus on the game, there you're absolutely right.

But good quality gear lets you focus, not having to worry you'll break things. 

Also, modern rigs go light which helps untrained airsofters ( 90% of us? ) go more than 20m without panting.

 

Look at it like this: buying sturdy brands will let you fault your own abilities, not your equipment.

 

End: Players are ALWAYS in for an experience, what that experience is is up to them.

Not up to you.

 

Yeah, I'm in a sour mood... -.-

[3vi1-D4n]

Its a discussion forum, I am not here to arrive at a consensus.  I have expressed a point of view, my own, and if others share the same view then its all good.  If not, then who cares.  

 

The important thing is being able to express and justify a point of view on a free speech forum.

 

People have choice to attend my events, if they don't like it I don't particularly care since there are plenty of other sites they can play in.  They can choose their own experience.  I am here to provide a service, as I want to create a unique experience for people to share.  You can also choose to accept my views or not.  

 

I would argue that, modifying guns and gear ARE a distraction.  As it has been indicated in previous post, players spend most of their time talking about their guns and their gear.  I don't care much about that as it doesn't really contribute to how well people play the game.  

 

And yeah great you like to criticize magazine quality or velcro flaps, precisely why I use AK pouches which has complete coverage of the sides.  Solves that problem.  AK chest rigs with those pouches are $30 a pop, carries M4, MP7, UZI, AK, SLR, G3, M14 pouches as well as belt ammo just fine.  What you are demonstrating very simply is that players can get caught up in gear customisation they can't see the obvious.  Mags do get debris in them, mud yes, sand yes, foliage yes, but can all be minimised by using common sense to select the right gear, rather than picking gear that looks good but doesn't fit the purpose.

 

Most militaries and companies have realised a few things.

 

1) Molle systems are heavy.  Pouches in 1000D are heavy.  This is why more and more rigs like the mayflower or LBTs they have fixed pouches, in 500D, and as you know 500D is no where as durable as 1000D.

2) Most militaries realised that you fight as you train with the same gear in bush as you do in FIBUA.  There is no point having a load carrying system integrated to the armour as body armour isn't used in bush warfare.  This is why the PACA armour systems in conjunction with rigs like the mayflow and LBTs are now more popular.  The other thing is that even within the wire you may want to have protection without your 1st line gear.

 

A simple $30 chest rig with a PACA armor system is really all that you need for pretty much for everything.  If the $30 vest doesn't fit, then a simple LBT clone will also work.  Light, simple, practical.  Keeps people focused on the situation and the fight, rather than how many mags they have dropped while trying to get out of dodge.

[Habakure]

I once knew a guy who would rock an ak47, one high cap and a Asda fleece jacket (came straight from work you see). He got more kills than anyone. In a Asda fleece jacket (would only attent in the afternoon, miss the morning).

 

One problem I had with Velcro, is the noise. It irritated the hell out of me after a while. Put then again it's nice to know the mag is nice and secure in a closed pouch. Remember watching two players have a completion as to which mag pouch was better to get a mag out of (the both tried the different types one after another). Open top or taco won every time. If you want to go prone, then have the mags at the side of you (doesn't eliminate the dirt problem, but it does help you from not getting pouches caught, on debris laying on the ground). Also, I found dark brown works better than green, but to each thier own.

[Lone_Bullet]

/snip

 

As far as I understand it we don't understand each other.

What I said in my previous post ( apart from the fasionida's ) is that I like my gear to work and keep on doing so.

You have nothing but sorrow if your gear fall apart because you bought cheap chinese knockoffs with single stitching.

 

What I am trying to make clear is this:

I can purchase quality gear and set it up at home, than play instead of talking about it on the field.

The world of airsoft isn't divided into 2 camps. There are more camps and I'm in one of them.

I like KISS. Simple, sturdy gear, light enough so let me breathe after a quick sprint and chosen through experience ( in airsoft, not military ), research and smart thinking.

I want to play, not worry if my gaffa taped chestrig will endure ( seen! ) or indeed if trough hobbling over hills my GBB is still in it's holster ( ACM serpa made me lose a KCS glock, for example )

It gets me trough the whole game, doesn't fail me when in need and only if somebody asks me what it is, I'll help them out briefly.

I also offer a drink from my hydration sack to some newbie who's forgotten to bring hydration in full summer at a long distance from the field shop.

Next time, they'll come prepared better.

 

Yes, I wear brand names. 

Because I encountered problems they might solve, not because travis/costa/FPSRussia carries it.

Because I can pay for it.

Because I want ME to be the weakest link, not me equipment.

If you research my posts on arnies you'll see I encounter problems and I research solutions.

 

What you are, rightly it seems, worried about is not the fact that people modify their equipment and replica's, but rather the attitude.

The attitude of playing talking their rest away while they should've prepped.

The organisation having to wait for players who forget things because they. keep. on. talking...

I can understand that. If this is the case, than I'm 100% with you there.

 

And yes, freedom of speech and such. It's a double edged sword, and while I'm all for it I have a problem with attitudes as well.

That's why I reacted so fiercely.

[3vi1-D4n]

 

What you are, rightly it seems, worried about is not the fact that people modify their equipment and replica's, but rather the attitude.

The attitude of playing talking their rest away while they should've prepped.

The organisation having to wait for players who forget things because they. keep. on. talking...

I can understand that. If this is the case, than I'm 100% with you there.

 

And yes, freedom of speech and such. It's a double edged sword, and while I'm all for it I have a problem with attitudes as well.

That's why I reacted so fiercely.

 

 

Yes, you've hit it on the head.  As a game planner for the last 12 years yes it can be rather frustrating.  It just seems people customise either to get that extra advantage with their gun and gear, but actually ruins the experience for themselves and others (high FPS guns breaking down mid game and walking off, or getting these brand name gear unsuitable for the terrain that results in gunked up/dropping mags and etc), or spend time mouthing off, or not properly preparing.

[Dentonboy]

Buy cheap, buy twice in my experience.

 

Had a ACM FSBE and pouches started to fray pretty quickly and ACM Multicams faded quickly. I had Viper knee pads that didn't last a day. And all of this annoyed me. I felt like money had been wasted.

 

I have Alta knee pads that are faultless after six+ years.

 

I have OPS Tactical Multicams and Patagonia gear that is still going strong after six+ years. I have TAD Gear now for real world use but I use for airsoft if conditions require hardcore kit.

 

I have a Safariland holster which has had to have a crack glued but is still going strong.

 

I have learnt through experience. If it is good enough to survive real world operations, it'll survive airsoft.

 

Halfway-house brands like Flyye, Condor and Pantac are good options for new buyers as they should last, look the part and are pretty affordable.

[Lone_Bullet]

I can vouch for Pantac. It was my choice when I started airsoft some 10 years ago... 

It's still good! Ranger green RRV kitted out for M4.

Tiny bit frayed on the edges and, compared to my other kit, heavy ( 1KD cordura ). 

 

Cheap for what it is as well!

 

 

So... anyone want it?

[Skarclaw]

Majority of airsoft is basically modelling, instead of modelling trains and planes, its yourself, in an environment where it is a fantasy world where one an be all they want to be.  The guns and gear merely enhances the fantasy.  So buying real gear and weapons that mimic someone in a warzone, is the way to show the commitment to the game.  Its like fashionware, where people to show that they are "in", hence they will buy whatever clothing that is associated with the lifestyle they have selected.  There is a bit of narcissism, a bit of fantasy seeking, and a thrill seeking in these type of players.  These players are not interested in recreating the experience.

I am a coach and a game planner.  I see airsoft toys as a sporting equipment, just as gear, maps, compasses.  I advocate simple $30 chest rigs and Olive green uniforms because it takes the runway model away from the essence of the game, to create a deeper richer experience.

 

 

 

What experience are you "recreating"? Seems like you are going in with pre-concieved notions. 

 

Why advocate olive green uniforms? Is it by any chance what you used when serving in the armed forces? If you are equipping an entire army then fair enough but for the individual they can pay a fraction more for camouflage - in the uk it would probably be cheaper to get surplus DPM then olive green kit. 

 

 

 

Its a discussion forum, I am not here to arrive at a consensus.  I have expressed a point of view, my own, and if others share the same view then its all good.  If not, then who cares.  

 

The important thing is being able to express and justify a point of view on a free speech forum.

 

 

 

I would argue that, modifying guns and gear ARE a distraction.  As it has been indicated in previous post, players spend most of their time talking about their guns and their gear.  I don't care much about that as it doesn't really contribute to how well people play the game.  

 What you are demonstrating very simply is that players can get caught up in gear customisation they can't see the obvious.  Mags do get debris in them, mud yes, sand yes, foliage yes, but can all be minimised by using common sense to select the right gear, rather than picking gear that looks good but doesn't fit the purpose.

 

 

Distraction from actually playing? I don't think so. To be fair I've seen countless posts of yours detailing the fairly intensive work you've done on guns (far and above what I would bother to do / pay someone else to do) so I'm not sure that quite stacks up.

 

"players spend most of their time talking about their guns and their gear. " - this doesn't correlate with my experience at all and I have played at a few different sites. Yeah in the morning/lunchtime and breaks people will discuss gear and guns but so what? When the game starts going people don't have roundtables about the advantages of keymod RAS or whatever...

 

To be honest you seem completely hung up on creating a "Milsim" experience which is fine but most people don't. With reference to your chest rig thing nobody will ever, ever, ever need to carry link rounds in airsoft sans a "dress up" / milsim element!!! 

 

Airsoft for me combines "tactical" stuff (room clearing, crawling through undergrowth, team cohesion etc) with "speedball" (sprinting, fast pace, manipulation of cover) with "fun stuff" like people taking out 6 shot revolvers and spinning them around their fingers if they get a hit with one, "knife kills" etc.

 

Personally I think some players use "tactical /milsim" as an excuse to sit around at the back plinking, being overly conservative (even in games with medic rules and instant respawns!) etc and it is boring. But whatever, most sites accommodate all styles of play. 

[blobface]

What experience are you "recreating"? Seems like you are going in with pre-concieved notions. 

 

Yeah I agree, 3vi1-D4n you seem to be after a very specific airsoft experience in mind, probably due to you being a game planner for years, which is perfectly fine, but I'm getting a sense of implied of criticism with your comments. Tacticool gears with tension pouch that has no flaps would work absolutely perfectly if the players has no interest in crawling through mud, or there is no mud to be crawled through, an average day of airsoft for some is probably closer to those civilian defense classes you see where people are running around shooting around barricades. I don't think warehouse speedball airsoft is any less of airsoft than 35 hour long milsim where you barely fire your replicas, it's all part of the hobby enjoyed differently. I mean hell, I know a guy who owns 100+ airsoft guns and mods them religiously, it's not for advantage or anything, it's certainly not a distraction, because collecting and modding IS his hobby, he barely manages 2 games a year, but he's as much an airsofter as anyone else in my mind.

[paranoiddroid]

I buy real gear because I'm fed up of airs oft gear falling apart because it's , I buy gear I like, that I'm comfortable with and have trained with.

 

I HATE chest rigs with fixed pouches with a passion because they don't work for my at all, I get irritated that I'm fixed to a certain structure, I get annoyed that I can't move a pouch somewhere it would make more sense and it be more comfortable and 8 can't tear it apart and rebuild it when I change gun/venue.

 

I don't play the same rig in cqb as I do in woodland but I may use the same ops rig if I'm. Playing with cam restrictions.

 

If I decide.to take my gas m4 out but am.playwpping o the tan side I rejig my ddpm ops vest and put he m4 pouches on it, if I'm playing in greens I will probably just run 58 pat webbing.

 

I like having the flexibility to build a layout that works for me. I find with a fixed chest rig that I can only carry what the rig was designed for and find myself having to fight with it to get what I want and I hate it. Plus I find the kind of rugs you have pictured when bobs are added aren't comfortable.

 

If you demanded I crawl 30m in my rig I wouldn't have an issue with it, £ use fast mags and tacos but I set my.kit up in a way that I know works for me taking advice from friends and family with combat experience and learning from my own airs oft experience.

 

I'm not a fan of the blinkered looking down on someone for not playing my way that you and quite a few others I have seen on airs oft forums over the years. Your I know what's best and those who are 'tacticool' (hence defined as anyone who wears gear I think is stupid because ei don't understand how to use it properly) are idiots and airs ofter who are doing it wrong.

 

Camp, I have sets tailored to what I'm doing and the events I go to, woodland I use DPM because it's cheap, it's. Comfortable and generally it works in the UK, if I need a tan kit I use desert DPM because it's cheap and comfortable and easy to replace.

 

 

In the colder weather I move. To OD green and tigerstripe because I can layer it using winter milsurp kit I got cheap things like heavyweight Germany surplus trousers sites and british sgts jumpers with tiger stripe shirt top layers because it works well in woodland as we get towards autumn and I understand how to use camp to my advantage.

 

Indoors cqb I tend to run blacks or blues because it's lightweight comfortable kit hat I trust that I'm not.going to sweat to death in.

 

urban outdoor cqb I go for greys and dark greens broken outlines and layered for warmth as the weather depends.

 

My kit I build as the day as the gun and as the site requires it there isn't a one size fits all approach and the idea of telling people that they are wrong if they don't agree that camo and gear should go so we can focus.on the 'purity' of the play is arrogant and elitist.

 

It means people like me who need to modify gear to get it to work can't access the hobby. (Knee pads, load bearing rigs that spread the weight better than a chest rig, 1st 2nd and 3rd line gear systems to carry weight and balance the load, camo systems that help with budgets, needing to have options for multiple guns etc.)

 

You decided your chest rig works for mp7-g3 mags.... yes but I carries them all equally poorly, why not have a set of pouches that fit the mags more efficiently so you can maximise the usage of your kit by trimming down unneeded weight and bulk.

 

If your way works for you awesome but it's not.the only way to play. If everyone thought like you DV whatever all there would be availible would be version 3 ak47s and basic viper style chest rigs because after all that's apparantly the most 'efficent' way to play and gear to run...

 

But it's not about efficiency it's about what works for the individual and it's about what we all get from the hobby.

[Lone_Bullet]

I love these 'tear off' medium IFAC pouches. I wear them on the sides where i normally can't reach medium molle pouches. Never quite god how you're support to reach those medium pouches under your armpit. No problem with velcro tear-off ifac pouches. Though. To be fair, they're quite loud.

[eatmycamo]

Grinds my gears people who just stand around talking instead of gaming. Usually means I have to work a lot harder to win!

Seconded.

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

One problem I had with Velcro, is the noise. It irritated the hell out of me after a while. 

Don't worry mate, I've got you - here's a tactical tip.

 

[Lone_Bullet]

I actually lol'ed ^^

[Alias1983]

I'm roffling.

 

Now if you can adjust the flap(the majority of airsoft gear you can't but my condor pistol pouches I can)

 

What you do is adjust it so only very little velcro is actually being used.

 

Or fill the Velcro with so it holds but will lose some sound because not all of it is being used.

[Habakure]

I laughed my *albartroth* off at that, DrAlexandraTobacco.

 

Super secret ninja tactic.

[Mike Obrien]

Not sure if condor has any contracts... I don't think they do, but I know my friend who is currently army national guard, and my other friend who is retired army both said they have used gear made from condor... Also as for the realistic milsim of guns between ptw, gbbr, and newer recoil aeg's and such I have to ask... what's the point? Just using recoil as an example.... Why would you want recoil on a airsoft gun? It is a disadvantage, even real steel guns work at reducing recoil to as little as possible, they could they would make it none at all. So in airsoft were you can have that, why not utilize that advantage?

Sure the gun not firing when it is empty is cool I guess, but hardly worth the price tag of a pdw or the like.... little innovation I bet someone could design a standard aeg to do it. As for quality of airsoft vs real steel as of late I find most guns are pretty durable, only thing I ever find lacking is maybe our optics but the guns, plastic or metal, are hard to break.

 

[Beeingmyself]

Not sure if condor has any contracts... I don't think they do, but I know my friend who is currently army national guard, and my other friend who is retired army both said they have used gear made from condor... Also as for the realistic milsim of guns between ptw, gbbr, and newer recoil aeg's and such I have to ask... what's the point? Just using recoil as an example.... Why would you want recoil on a airsoft gun? It is a disadvantage, even real steel guns work at reducing recoil to as little as possible, they could they would make it none at all. So in airsoft were you can have that, why not utilize that advantage?

 

Sure the gun not firing when it is empty is cool I guess, but hardly worth the price tag of a pdw or the like.... little innovation I bet someone could design a standard aeg to do it. As for quality of airsoft vs real steel as of late I find most guns are pretty durable, only thing I ever find lacking is maybe our optics but the guns, plastic or metal, are hard to break.

 

 

For the recoil part it is to imitate the live firearms and weapon manipulation.

[blobface]

Recoil...? What's the point? Err.... the same point as why all pistol GBB has blowback, it's fun. 

[Lone_Bullet]

It's more than that that, Mike Obrien.

Recoil Shock, PTW, Evo, ERG. They're all simply high end AEG.

Better hop, tuned Barrel/Cylinder ratio, bolt stop, some with micro-switch trigger with short travel, some 11,1v - MosFet - High-torque motor means almost instant trigger reaction. And so on.

All in all, you should try them to see what the fuss is all about . I'm almost certain you'll enjoy it.

 

Imo, They're simply the better AEG out of the box.

 

As for recoil, see above: trying to give the slightest hint of realism. If it weren't for that we'd all be playing laser tag.

 

Finally, want better optics? HoloSun and Vortex are your friend! Russian/USSR optics are also a REALLY good price/performance buy!

[Beeingmyself]

What is actually funny/weird or a good question on the behalf on imitation the live firearms

are that almost none of the AEG are trying to replicate the feeling of the triggers of live firearms

Heard about one about some month ago but haven't seen or heard from i since then.

 

PTW are like any other airsoft nerfgun with the electricswitch

some GBBRs are better but nok close

[Alias1983]

Gbbmasterrace

[renegadecow]

Most GBBRs have their triggers function just like the real thing and would feel like the real thing if not for the comparatively lighter hammer springs which reduces trigger pull weight. But not on my P90. That has a 7lbs semi auto stage and an 11lbs full auto stage which is just about spot on to the real one.

Keep in mind though that lighter trigger kits exist for many real rifles making them feel just as light if not lighter than GBBR triggers. But if you want to increase poundage, you can always add/beef up the trigger springs or if you want to simulate the "wall" before break, you can stick in a measured piece of soft rubber that will block the trigger at that sweet spot.

[eatmycamo]

Gbbmasterrace

GHK Master Race

 

FTFY