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Horsem4n

Initial impressions, boneyard S&T Type 64

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As I stand here cooking bacon like the red bloded American I am, I am reminiscing about the rifle I just got in yesterday and the time I've spend fondling it over the last few hours.

 

tl,dr it's light, relatively poorly designed, and seemingly fragile. Definitely over priced.

 

The AEG in question is the Smart&Team Howa Type 64. A Chinese based manufacturer making a Japanese niche market battle rifle. I'm not surprised on some of the disappointing design aspects being that they probably never got their hands on a real one.

 

When you pick it up out of the box, it's pretty balanced but of an unconvincingly light weight. It's all made of aluminum alloy aside the screws and the top heat shield. Various types of aluminum, some rough cast and lathed parts, some sheet stampings, some PIM. And the wood parts feel like plastic. I was actually convinced that the grip was plastic until I took the gearbox out and saw the unfinished wood on the inside.

The gun is way too like weight. It weighs less than 6 pounds. Like a springer SVD. Actually, maybe lighter than that.

 

The front end needs to be disassembled to remove the hopup unit. It's like the marui type 89, but less screws, I think. You take two 2mm allen screws out of the gas block side of the top cover to remove it and then 4 more out of the bottom handguard to remove that. Then you unscrew an AR like barrel nut to remove the outer barrel. The inner barrel and hopup unit will come with it. It's also reminiscent of S&T's ARX160. Keep in mind, those screws are real soft and so is the aluminum they are threaded into. Be careful, you have to do this every time you need to service your hopup.

The lower part of the hopup is held captive in the CLAMSHELL upper receiver. It appears to be a big ol' hunk of zinc while the upper hopup that's captive with the outer barrel is made of plastic.

 

The lower receiver is kinda like a sig, but it's a PIM aluminum piece. The front part of mine is snapped off unfortunately. The techs over at evike were a little overzealous when they were taking it apart to check it out. To field strip the rifle, you need a punch and a hammer as the pin holding the lower to the upper needs really good wacks to let it loose. Be careful, I'm not surprised that evike broke it. The front mag catch (m14 like) is captive in the upper, so it's not going to fall apart when you take off the lower.

Then you need to take the 2 Phillips head screws out of the fake pins that couple the stock to the upper and lower receivers. Not you can slide the stock off and slide the lower out of the upper. Why they couldn't just use big pins you can push out with your fingers? Who the *fruitcage* knows.

 

On the iron sights, they are OK. Standard Chinese foldemups. Feel like the ones you get with dboys pdws. Only problem is that my front sight looks crooked and I can't tell why.

 

To get the gearbox out, there's a pin like on g36s that you take out and then you can slide the gearbox out like a g36, except the squeeze around the motor is tougher and you need to keep the wires out of the way or it won't happen. No need to unscrew the selector switch, the one well designed part of the rifle is that you just have to set the rifle to safe to start removing the gearbox.

Under the selector switch is a small ball bearing and spring. The selector switch indexing is OK in my book, but there's nothing holding you back from depending the switch divots and using a stronger spring behind the bearing to increase indexing positivity. Even though the Japanese didn't think of it this way, it's very easy to sweep the cylinder and off safe with your trigger finger. The rifle could support ambi selectors if they wanted to. Like most oddball S&T guns, the selector cam inside actuates the proprietary cutoff lever directly, with no selector plate.

The gearbox itself is a pretty hidious brick of a gearbox. Hardly representative of a V3 like evike said. With steel bushings and plated brass cylinder, this appears to be a little better than standard S&T fare. I have not opened the gearbox, but it uses a S&T G36 like wiring harness with the micro switch and everything. The shell appears to be made similar to G&G gearbox shells, in terms of the material its made of. I'm not worried about the gearbox itself breaking, but the cutoff lever is pot metal as well and not exactly available 2nd hand.

 

The battery storage it actually pretty good. The door in the stock plate is tiny, but if you remove the stock plate (or if your like me and get one without the end plate even screwed on) you'll see that there is enough room in there for even large type 9.6v batteries.

 

Beyond all that, I still like the rifle. When it's completely together, it should stand regular battlefield rigours, but you just have to be careful when taking it apart.

So if you can look past its light weight and relative inconvenient nature to service it, it's an OK gun to make an impression with. But I cannot recommend it as a go to primary for every day use.

 

I think it's worth, at most, $250 brand new in the box. But most places are selling it for almost $400 with evike selling it for $310. I, unfortunately bought it broken for $250.

 

I sent an email to S&T asking to buy the broken/missing parts from them. I can go without the 2 missing parts (the rear sling mount and the plate that the rear stock plate screws in to), but I really need help with getting a new lower receiver. My only other option is to try my hand at aluminum brazing.

 

Sorry about the relative unordered nature of this first look. I'll upload some pics later.

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Yeah, it is a shame how cheap it was made for such an interesting piece and then see how it is being sold.  It is supposed to have a "quick" spring change bit but that involves removing the stock...

 

The selector is off from the real one which has to be pulled out slightly when used, but that was probably a thing that S&T wouldn't know how to do without handling a real one (which is the impression the build quality of the whole replica gives off).

 

Remember to tape it up like all the training images show :P

 

That all said, I still wouldn't mind one on the wall.

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It doesn't look like S&T want to sell me parts, but I'll have to give them another week to reply to my emails before I can afford brazing rods.

Anybody know the melting temperature of these receivers? It's got a higher aluminum content in it that other metal receivers. Similar to VFC aluminum.

Anybody think it's worth trying to braze my lower receiver back together?

Edited by Horsem4n

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Well, they havnt replied yet. I'm buying the brazing rods today. Regardless though, if they do reply and are prepared to sell me a receiver, I'll gladly buy one.

Even if I do successfully braze mine together.

 

The other thing I'm going to work on is to convert all the screws and small, hard to punch out, pins to easier to use fare. Something like pins held in with cotter pins in the back and I'm going to try replacing the screws up front holding on the handguard with pins or bands of some kind. Worse case I'll re thread the holes with helicoils.

 

Then I'll have to take care of sourcing replacement proprietary innards that can break. So far that's just the cutoff lever though. Though, I'm going to see about installing a customized BTC chimera.

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well, i got the receiver brazed back together. it was pretty simple, like soldering really. i got some pics

 

in the box:

IMG_20160227_245257033_zpsagzmdzkr.jpg

 

missing the rear sling mount and thing the plate that the butt plate gets screwed into:

IMG_20160227_245424759_zpse9fkvsqq.jpg

 

where the receiver was broken:

IMG_20160227_245442707_zpsfnvjcga5.jpg

IMG_20160227_245512864_zpsy6ddjrsa.jpg

 

newly brazed:

IMG_20160304_013749549_zpssstoqbmp.jpg

IMG_20160304_013849058_zpsie5oint2.jpg

IMG_20160304_013853405_zpsrrebpaxx.jpg

 

cleaned up:

IMG_20160304_020400312_zpsvfjog2vv.jpg

IMG_20160304_020408902_zpslrpmbscg.jpg

 

and back together :) :

IMG_20160304_020204350_zpsoaf9vcgp.jpg

IMG_20160304_020237141_zpsxf5jfefw.jpg

IMG_20160304_020632546_zpsibup8ku4.jpg

 

it's strong too, i don't have any problems with how the gun feels now, except for the relatively light weight. the gun fits together solidly. im happy and am ready to move on to the other problems that this particular gun has.

 

EDIT: if anyone is wondering, my T64's gearbox doesnt work, i snipped the wiring out before testing it. mainly because i wanted to make it easier to take apart and put back together as the wires do get in the way. but also because i simply dont care about stock performance. im not even going to use or fire this gun until i upgrade it.

ill take more pics and stuff later. the gearbox for this thing is actually pretty nice for a S&T gun. no black pant and lots heavier.

 

oh, and i used a basic propane torch (my butane pen torch was not able to get the receiver up to temperature) and about a third of a bernzomatic brazing rod. they are a zinc/aluminum alloy and cost about $3.50 for a 2 pack. perfect for airsoft, near the soldering irons and torches at my local hardware store.

Edited by Horsem4n
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ok, lets move on with this triple post. i know you guys arent that interested in the gun, but im posting for posterity. so that if someone finds one of these rifles down the line with similar problems, they can have some info about it.

 

no new pics yet, but i did find out why my front sight was crooked. turns out the whole outer barrel was canted. someone milled out the barrel key that interfaces with a peg in the receiver askew. so i widened out the barrel key a little bit that way i could turn the barrel a few degrees to the right, torqued down the barrel nut, and now my sights are straight. woo

 

i also searched high and low in my dads work shop scrap and found a plate with a threaded screw hole in the middle. i found an appropriate bolt and i cut the plate out so that it fits through the slotted hole in the stock. now i can screw on my butt pad.

 

another thing i did was file out the front pin hole in the lower a tiny bit so that the pin isn't so hard to punch in and out. now it's similar to punching out tight flora pins in ARs. i did find some 1/8th inch bar stock (i believe its tool steel to make into drill bits, my dad used to make tools) that i can make into longer pins and secure them via cotter pins, but i dont feel like doing that right now as i dont really know if i can even drill through it. i would also need my drill press set up to do it, so im just going to put that idea on the back burner for a while. (maybe long bolts with thumb screws?)

 

the screw holes on the gas block and upper receiver for the handguards seem to be holding up. recoil kits cost a lot too, so im going to hold off on that until i actually start stripping screws.

 

still though, i would at least like to make takedown, to access the hop up for unjamming purposes, tool less. i would have to replace the front pin and the 2 stock screws with some type of pins that i can pull out with my fingers and maybe a multitool.

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So, I decided to visit the tools required takedown anyway. I drilled out the screw holes and front pin hole for 6/32 bolts. They are currently fastened with basic hardware, but I plan on replacing them with more attractive thumb screws soon. This way I can take down the gun for emergency unjamming in the field.

IMG_20160305_101647943_zpsxttbxudl.jpg

IMG_20160305_101634226_zpsv6daxzue.jpg

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I got around to replacing the hardware for the tooless takedown. Got some sexy brass bolts and thumb nuts.

IMG_20160416_181618692_zpsrnilly7b.jpg

IMG_20160416_181624328_zpsrwjmxlca.jpg

IMG_20160416_181636050_zps9hx4gqta.jpg

IMG_20160416_180211173_zpsd5lw0qiu.jpg

 

Also, how would you guys recommend re finishing the wood? How do they have the real t64s finished?

I got a special sticker for it, but I want to re finish the wood first before applying it.

Edited by Horsem4n

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That actually looks really good with the brass fittings. I'd be tempted to turn it into some sort of atompunk thing.

 

Why the rear flip up if the front is fixed and there's no provision for mounting optics? Odd.

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I actually don't know why either flip up (they are both foldable) as the scope rail (m14 style attachment) sits high enough to still be able to use the iron sights.

The scope rail is very ugly so I didn't buy it.

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Yes, hicaps and midcaps if you can find them.  As some folks have said though, they are horrible at retaining bb's outside of the weapon initially without modification,

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I found that they were very close to m14 mags, but not close enough. After significant modification to an m14 midcap, I still couldn't get it to fit. About a centimeter too long and the feed port is a few millimeters too close to the back of the mag.

Edited by Horsem4n

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Very informative information on this thread, I will stick around to learn and share information in regards to the S&T Type 64. I initially was planing on building a Type 64 DMR Variant (M1D scope and check rest) but after opening the gearbox and hop-up unit I kind of gave up on the ideal. However if anyone has information about the nozzle and hopup unit it would be greatly appreciated. 

At the current time I am not sure if the nozzle is proprietary, having a O ring Air nozzle would improve compression by a long shot.

Hopup arm and bucking is strange and seems proprietary, bucking is a standard AEG but the nub was something else and badly shaped.
Installing a flat hop or even a regular AEG nub will require some DIY.  


About Magazines they are proprietary to the gun and somewhat expensive.

Changing the magazines on the Type 64 takes some manual dexterity and muscle memory.

You have to get a feel for lining the feed hook in the mag well to the hole in the front of the magazine. Normally the procedure is to put the magazine in a 130°  and rock backwards until you hear a click. This sound is the magazine well locking with the front hole in the magazine. 

Next you rock the magazine backwards until you hear the click of the magazine catch locking the magazine in place.

It doesn't hurt to push the magazine forward to check if the magazine is properly seated. If the front hook has not latched onto the magazine, the magazine will move very freely in the magazine well and may fall out.

Common I've noticed is in the heat of battle to either not lock the magazine in place properly or trying to put the magazine in backwards.

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Yeah, locking the mag in takes some training. I have a plan to build a ramp in the back of the magwell to shute the mag in the correct position without having to consciously push the mag forward as you rock it back.

 

I made more minor fixes to otherwise poorly fited parts. I shimmed the sights with tape and deepened the detent notches on the front sight so they lock open and closed more pisitvely and wobble less.

I filed down the base for the selector so the selector sits closer to the receiver, eliminating the wobble and allowing the selector to more positively find its positions.

 

Also, my 2 high cap magazines hold bbs just fine.

 

Will upload new pics in a bit.

 

Edit: pics

 

IMG_20160427_104349221_zpswthcdjp3.jpg

 

IMG_20160427_104548051_zpsyipuu5kr.jpg

There's like 3 or 4 pieces of e tape under there. Make sure to punch the pin out of the windage knob in the right direction.

 

IMG_20160427_104603460_zpsvhh7e0zy.jpg

IMG_20160427_104653080_zps2al0vnnr.jpg

This just spaces the front sight against the gas block so it wobbles less.

 

IMG_20160427_104706288_zps5qva1itq.jpg

Needle file used to deepen the detent notches for more positive position finding. I also plan to put a stronger spring behind the detent and bulk out the detent as it is a good bit smaller than the hole it's in, but it's already much better.

Edited by Horsem4n

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So, I had an m14 on hand for a tune up and was looking as the side of the receiver and the grooves and screw hole on the side of the receiver for scope mounts on both rifles match up pretty well.

An m14 scope mount would be pretty low profile on a t64 and look good with a scope. Of course I'll probably have to chop some rail off the front of the mount as it may interfere with the charging handle. And of course it's going to keep me from adjusting the hopup while the scope mount is attached, but the rifle will look good, so I don't care.

 

Removing a thumb screw to adjust the hopup doesn't bother me at all.

 

I ordered a cheapo m14 mount to test so I'll let you all know how it goes.

I expect to maybe slightly shift the screw hole on the mount and thin out the mount lugs for the grooves on the receiver along with adjusting the length of the rail for reasons afformentioned.

Edited by Horsem4n

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So, I had an m14 on hand for a tune up and was looking as the side of the receiver and the grooves and screw hole on the side of the receiver for scope mounts on both rifles match up pretty well.

An m14 scope mount would be pretty low profile on a t64 and look good with a scope. Of course I'll probably have to chop some rail off the front of the mount as it may interfere with the charging handle. And of course it's going to keep me from adjusting the hopup while the scope mount is attached, but the rifle will look good, so I don't care.

 

Removing a thumb screw to adjust the hopup doesn't bother me at all.

 

I ordered a cheapo m14 mount to test so I'll let you all know how it goes.

I expect to maybe slightly shift the screw hole on the mount and thin out the mount lugs for the grooves on the receiver along with adjusting the length of the rail for reasons afformentioned.

The Type 64 was designed to take the scope mount from a M1D or M1C Garand variant and Leather Cheek raiser. 

 

S&T makes a cheaper copy of the Tasco RIS Scope mount and TASCO under rail mount for the Type 64 that is perfect for airsoft purposes. The TASCO mount unlike the M1C/D mount is over the bore rather than offset but sits high enough to clear the charging handle. 

 

I should have a list of internal airseal parts to replace the S&T parts shortly, I spent my lunch break with a micrometer to check for tolerances on the new air-seal parts. But nothing is set in stone until I have put it into the gearbox and taken chronograph readings. 

 

I've been also checking Japanese airsoft forums to see if they have found or made any new internal parts for the Type 64 rifle. So far I've only seen some external parts and a spacer for the hopup arm to use regular or H hop nubs.

 

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I'm totally aware of the mounts that S&T make. I'm considering picking up the handguard rail, but the high profile scope rail looks bad. I want the m14 mount because it's low profile.

I just hate guns that look too tall or attachments that look aloof and not a solid part of the rifle.

 

About the internals, I wouldn't worry about tolarances so much that you take a micrometer or caliper to parts. Except for the nozzles length, I'm sure most aftermarket air seal parts and gear sets will work for the gun just fine.

I plan on my normal combo of air pad, SHS piston, simple MOSFET, high torque motor, reshim, better lube, and home brew hopup mods. Other things can wait until thing start breaking down.

 

Only thing I'm still comprehensive about is messing with the hopup. I still havnt looked at it myself, so I don't know how I'm going to flat hop it yet. Mostly on the custom nub side of things and flattening the adjuster arm/spacer.

Edited by Horsem4n

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Depends on what it has in there.

 

My S&T Sterling came with a v-hop that looks like a madbull shark X hop up without the accuracy issues of the shark-X.  It outranges and more consistent than my G3 and L1A1 with first factory flat hop nubs.

 

However the S&T TAR21 hops were atrociously bad.

 

First test the stock system and ensure the whole piston/cylinder/nozzle system and the barrel/hopup is degreased.  You might not need any accuracy mods.

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lol, i'm not really asking questions. it's not really accuracy i'm looking to gain but range with heavy BBs.  but i got the hopup apart and looked at it. 

here's the hop, top and bottom.

IMG_20160503_163711704_HDR_zpsch16npbf.j

IMG_20160503_163715287_HDR_zpslvngfzi9.j

 

the adjustment system is similar to a G36, but with an even smaller adjustment spacer. the hopup bucking appears silicone, a little harder than the transparent blue ones you find in a lot of ARES/S&T guns, but not quite as hard as any normal stock bucking and not quite molded very well with ann that flash still hanging out. the barrel window is nice and big and square, so i can make a good size flat hop patch for it. the barrel clip appears to be cross compatible with AR barrel clips. here's just a small series of picks detailing the hopup parts

IMG_20160503_163802990_HDR_zpsdyl57hn4.j

IMG_20160503_163843309_HDR_zpsvwnxvpaw.j

IMG_20160503_163847280_HDR_zps86rcwxuk.j

IMG_20160503_164046711_zpsatbevpjb.jpg

IMG_20160503_164157676_zpsiqmmffsj.jpg

IMG_20160503_164319652_HDR_zpsrdwfxrzc.j

IMG_20160503_164737743_zpshi2ej9eo.jpg

IMG_20160503_164842384_zpstoaoieai.jpg

IMG_20160503_164502588_HDR_zpsa5dwxptw.j

 

so the plan is to cut the plastic spacer in half and make a shorter than normal flat nub to sit under it. should pull off just fine.

 

so, i only took the upper apart because the M14 mount came in. i did get it to fit for the most part, but there was some complications.

IMG_20160503_125405150_HDR_zpslqf6emf8.j

 

first order of business, is the thumb screw threaded correctly? it's not.

IMG_20160503_125449528_zpsm5beuo7c.jpg

 

luckily, i had an ADD moment the other day while looking for a short bolt for stabilizing spring guides and found a few. for some reason, i tried it out in the screw hole for the scope mounts on the T64 and it threaded in correctly. so i have a bolt to work with. so i cut the threaded section off the thumb screw and drilled a hole through the center to poke the new bolt through. i drilled the hole by eye, rough marking the center of the front and back faces. its not 100% concentric, but its within a millimeter. i have a larger set of drill bits. used a small one for a pilot hole and then used one the same size as my bolt (by eye).

IMG_20160503_171404042_zpsyuglye56.jpg

IMG_20160503_173236813_zpsquw5pdvv.jpg

IMG_20160503_173240960_zpst9j3cprb.jpg

IMG_20160503_173251577_zpsrns2fb9a.jpg

IMG_20160503_173304110_zpsbkduxiz7.jpg

 

the next thing was to cut the rail in certain sections for it to fit the contours of the receiver. i didn't have to file under anything luckily, i just had to cut off a couple large sections of it detailed below. cuts were made with a hacksaw and i was able to get the cuts pretty straight.

IMG_20160503_162307092_zpszm22rbyd.jpg

IMG_20160503_175259152_zps11cdnasd.jpg

 

with that done, the rail sits on the side of the receiver and the ribs index into the receiver grooves just fine. BUT the hole doesn't line up 100%. it's a little low.

IMG_20160503_175604000_zpscsrky2eb.jpg

 

so, all i did from here is to flatten the last step on the thumb screw so it didnt try indexing into the mount.

IMG_20160503_174722156_zps89iszh6k.jpg

IMG_20160503_175247982_zpsaxxkgr4a.jpg

IMG_20160503_175250889_zps1qpd7lqv.jpg

 

then i screwed it into the receiver AND

IMG_20160503_175418971_zpsucrn8hyh.jpg

IMG_20160503_175429034_zpshnoghx1h.jpg

 

now unfortunately:

IMG_20160503_175450435_zpsvvad0smd.jpg

IMG_20160503_175513941_zpsge6cosr9.jpg

 

so yeah, the rail sits in line a little to the right of the bore line. so no co witnessing optics, but it really wouldn't make much of a problem if you were to mount a scope on it.

so, that's it for now. i have the bolt and thumb screw setting with loctite to bond them together. i may look into making a spacing plate to true up the bore alignment of the mount, but it doesn't really matter. im just going to save up some money for good parts to put in the gearbox and get a nice scope. when i get around to opening the gearbox to install any new parts and flat hop it, ill post more pics.

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Depends on what it has in there.

 

My S&T Sterling came with a v-hop that looks like a madbull shark X hop up without the accuracy issues of the shark-X.  It outranges and more consistent than my G3 and L1A1 with first factory flat hop nubs.

 

However the S&T TAR21 hops were atrociously bad.

 

First test the stock system and ensure the whole piston/cylinder/nozzle system and the barrel/hopup is degreased.  You might not need any accuracy mods.

My Research has shown the Type 64's hopup unit lacks consistency and range. In fact the Japanese have made a sleeve to hold a regular hopup bucking to gain abit more range.

 

Pictures and information are taken from K-hobby.com

 

s9jyl1A.jpg

 

y5Yb3OZ.jpg

y0vnukX.jpg

RtStqZ0.jpg

 

 

Edited by kng6

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