HPA Tapped TM Desert Eagle?

[bankz5152]

Evening chaps,

 

Anyone ever HPA tapped a TM Deagle? If so how?

 

Also how small do the HPA tanks come?

 

Main reason for asking is I have a Guarder kitted DE and it struggles in anything less than around 18c, which in the UK is you know everyday and Co2 mags do not exist (which still baffles me). So HPA seems like the only real solution.

 

I would like the tank as small as possible so I can use it for my forever ongoing GBBR Lancer project.

 

Also where do you buy all of the bits? Lines, regulators n all that jazz?

 

Also considering this will be a side arm for most of the time what does one do with the line? Obvs it has to be at least arms length (im 6'4") where does the line go? Surely it will snag and catch on things

 

Cheers

 

On my phone, my spelling will suck

[ED-SKaR]

Poly slide master race checking in . Give up your metal slide to have actual performance!

 

Ahem...

 

 

 

Yes you can run a TM DE from an external line, and it'd be compatible with your rifle setup to boot, if you wanted to external line that too.

 

Practically speaking, there are advantages and disadvantages to external supply vrs GIM.

Advantages include low cost per shot, good FPS consistency and the general ability to play a full day without needing a refill.

Disadvantages include having an annoying air line, big tank and needing to switch the line when you reload, as well as the expense and maintenance on all that extra equipment.

 

When holstered the line will be something you want to address, but not impossible. you can easily get coiled airlines that coil up when they are loose, this will make them have a smaller profile on your person, however the possibility of them catching on stuff still exists.

Reloading mags will be slightly slower, but there was a good video from someone showing a good technique to change mags fairly quickly. Basically pull the line and stick it in your dominant hand, change mag with your support hand, then reattach the line.

 

Basic mod vid:

Reloading vid:

Russian valve:

 

All of that effort for your primary rifle would make sense, given the advantages that you gain. I'm personally not convinced that it would be as practical for a pistol so you will have to consider that for yourself. I am (and have been for years) doing the same thing for my many 1911s, but I'm one of those nutjobs who runs primary pistol.

Ya, go figure.

 

 

 

 

For the kit that you need to buy, as I've done things:

 

Big refill tank.

I have a 'pub sized' co2 tank in my garage to fill my smaller tank, obviously I can't carry that around with me, but the smaller tank has enough to last a whole day.

You'll need some way to refill your carry tank, dependant on what type of system you are getting into this will vary.

 

Carry tank.

I have a paintball co2 20oz bottle and space in my rucksack to carry it.

 

Regulators.

I've been forced into dual stage regulation. I got a palmers pursuit regulator, but it doesn't come down to a low enough psi for it to be any good for a pistol (the hammer can't open the valve) so I have to buy a second regulator to take it from the Palmers unit to the correct pressure for the gun to run off.

Depending on what type of regulators you can find to fit your carry bottle, your rig will differ from mine.

 

Lines and connectors.

I'm using standard 1/8"bsp connectors, you can get them from airline shops, I think I got mine from http://www.airlines-pneumatics.co.uk/ but this was YEEEEEEEARS ago, like 5 or 6 years ago.

I know you can get certain fittings on ebay and amazon, so they are really common and easy to find.

 

Mag valve.

I'm using the Russian CQB valve, which makes attaching an airline SUPER EASY as it uses standard QD fitting. I'm not convinced about it's strength so I'm going to smother the entire thing in epoxy putty once I've got things sorted (by 2030 probably)

You can also drill and tap the existing valve hole to fit a standard thread like 1/8"bsp to screw in a normal fitting.

There are several existing qd fittings so make sure whatever you use is compatible.

 

 

 

 

Bored yet?

 

Good.

Go get a plastic slide and run green gas .

[bankz5152]

Well that was bloody informative!! Thank you! I shall watch the videos at lunch. 

 

Tbh I hate HPA, it feels like going back in time. I do have a plastic slided, metal bodied DE which I do use, just wanted to be able to use my shiny new Guarder kitted one! It's not as if its a simple procedure to swap from plastic to metal on the DE so wouldnt want to be swapping em out all the time. 

 

Filling the small HPA tank is the issue really, seems OTT to go and buy a big *albatross* tank just to refill the Desert Eagle.... The GOW Lancer project is a long way off, I still need to buy a WE G39... So would only be for the DE.

 

Why wont someone just make CO2 mags for it!!!! 

[DarkLite]

Alternatively, mod your DE to fire full auto, HPA line it and attach a drum to the bottom of a magazine for *suitcases* and gigs.

[renegadecow]

If you're feeling adventurous, Swatti once showed that you can inject liquid CO2 into TM DE mags without exploding provided you also swap the valves.

[ED-SKaR]

Well that was bloody informative!! Thank you! I shall watch the videos at lunch. 

 

Tbh I hate HPA, it feels like going back in time. I do have a plastic slided, metal bodied DE which I do use, just wanted to be able to use my shiny new Guarder kitted one! It's not as if its a simple procedure to swap from plastic to metal on the DE so wouldnt want to be swapping em out all the time. 

 

Filling the small HPA tank is the issue really, seems OTT to go and buy a big *albatross* tank just to refill the Desert Eagle.... The GOW Lancer project is a long way off, I still need to buy a WE G39... So would only be for the DE.

 

Why wont someone just make CO2 mags for it!!!!

"Going back in time" Hardly. External air has advantages and disadvantages to GIM. Just because the airsoft proletariat don't use the system doesn't make it archaic.

 

Refilling the tank is a fundamental part of running a system like this. I justified buying mine by telling myself I'd be running several guns from the system as well as making some, I've never fielded it because I didn't understand the capabilities of the palmers regulator that I bought.

[bankz5152]

If you're feeling adventurous, Swatti once showed that you can inject liquid CO2 into TM DE mags without exploding provided you also swap the valves.

 

This interested me the most, just got no clue what valves to use and what would actually fit and work. This would be my favourite choice. 

[bankz5152]

Thank you for the very informative information and I will use that info to build my Lancer when the time comes (I hope next year) but it looks like too much time and effort for a sidearm.

 

However I think Im going to try and pick up where Swatti left off and build a DE Co2 Mag.

 

(If a Mod could change the title id be happy )

 

So Swatti has proved the stock DE mags can handle the pressure with ease.

 

So I need -

Co2 compatible release valve - What will fit?

Fill valve that will allow the transfer of liquid Co2 - What fill valves allow this that would fit a pistol?

150% hammer spring? - Im guessing the release valve will be harder to depress

 

Since im charging 'raw' Co2 into the mags, im guessing the pressure released will be unregulated and at full power? Or with the routers/valves limite the pressure released?

 

Obviously if its kicking out 450fps I cant use it!

 

On my phone, my spelling will suck

[hitmanNo2]

Good luck.  I hope you don't die heh.

[bankz5152]

Haha well Swattis done the testing, far exceeds C02 pressure so should be good.

 

On my phone, my spelling will suck

[ED-SKaR]

Don't worry about FPS, if your gun is running at an appropriate FPS with 12g CO2 bulbs then it will shoot the same fps with this co2 filling method, as they are both liquid CO2 and that's how physics works.

 

 

The danger is that the green gas mags are not designed for that pressure, and that CHANGE in pressure. Remember that each time you empty and fill the gas you are taking the inside from natural outside pressure(like 15psi or something irelevant) that is the same pressure inside as outside, and you're taking that all the way up to full pressure (12opsi with green 850psi with co2). That repeated change in pressure is going to cause metal fatigue that could easily lead to catastrophic failure.

 

Notice how I use the word 'danger' at the beginning of the last paragraph, instead of using the word 'problem' like I usually do.

 

 

If you could machine new magazine shells out of a stronger material, that were designed with that pressure change in mind. That'd work.

[bankz5152]

Hmmm. Thats worth thinking about.... Though how much will new mag shells cost? I imagine not cheap!

 

If doing that, it would probably be better to use the KWC bulb design just fitted for a TM or design a mag specifically to take liquid charged Co2, like the Devil Hunter modded mags? I suppose the next step would be - Who can design this?

 

Though surely the seal around the top would blow before the metal gives out?

[renegadecow]

You'll have to ask Swatti. Can't find his old thread but he did repeated heating and cooling tests as well as an overheated test where it was hot enough to melt the seals. How about just using stronger gas than green like MAPP or r410a? Not nearly as huge a risk as 800psi.

[Wingmann]

Try propylene first, and if that fails, start investigating how to CNC a proper CO2 mag

[bankz5152]

Mapp is barely better than propane, same with propene.

 

R410a? Sounds interesting, what is that?

 

In regard to the nag strength thats what I took away, should be fine....

 

On my phone, my spelling will suck

[renegadecow]

Just another hydrocarbon refirgerant, but the pressure is a lot more than just plain propane. Not recommended at all where I'm at unless significantly cut with 134a.

[bankz5152]

Hmmm interesting! Ill have a gander, see how it goes and report back

 

At £10 per KG, minimum order of 10KG i think ill give this one a miss...

 

On my phone, my spelling will suck

[Dimitri MdP]

Don't go with R410A. It has more than twice the pressure of propilene (Map Pro). Unless you are playing in negative degrees centigrade, it will damage your mags beyond any possibility of repair. It will literally bloat the magazine metal walls or even make it explode. Seriously, DO NOT even try to put R410A at any temperature above 0ºC. 

Map Pro should be enough to get you though anything between 0ºC to 25ºC. 

 

Just another hydrocarbon refirgerant, but the pressure is a lot more than just plain propane. Not recommended at all where I'm at unless significantly cut with 134a.

mixing gases just won't work, unless they achieve a azeotropic mixture (that is, a mixture of two or more liquids whose proportions cannot be altered by simple distilation) Which is a pretty rare combination.

Otherwise, it will be kind of like when you boil together a cup of water and a cup of alcohol, the alcohol will evaporate first all the way until there is no more alcohol present, and only then the water will start to boil. If you switch off your burner when there's only one cup of liquid left, it will surely be pure water. 

R410A is actually a sort of azeotropic mixture (not a true azeotropic, but close enough for practical purposes), but trying to mix it with R134A will only give you hot shots from the 410A first and only when there's no more of that present it will start to vaporise the 134A giving you extremely weak shots.

Seriously guys, just use Map Pro.

[bankz5152]

Like I said tried Map Pro and found it to be barely better than regular propane. 

[hitmanNo2]

Yeah.  I've tried Map Pro and found it nothing special.  Certainly not like this god type gas lots of people describe it as. 

[Wingmann]

The Rothenberger propylene I've used is noticeably better than propane in the cold, similar in mid temps (bit more powerful), and quite not-recommended in hot weather above 25ºC. The cans just say "Propylene, UN 1077".

 

Now, MAPP (UN 1066) is a mix of MethylAcetylene, Propadiene and Propane and newer mixes use LPG (propane/butane) instead of pure propane, which takes the pressure down but makes it safer for its purpose, which is welding.

 

As you can imagine, there's a ton of other mixes that can be labeled under UN 1066, UN 1077, MAPP, MAPP PRO or anything else, and you won't probably know the mixture for sure, which has changed quite a lot since 2008.

[hitmanNo2]

I've not seen Rothenberger propylene in the UK.  I like their propane though.

[paranoiddroid]

It's a bugger being sure what your getting is what you expect with MAPP

[Dimitri MdP]

It's a bugger being sure what your getting is what you expect with MAPP

MAPP is not Map Pro. 

 

As Wingmann said, MAPP stands for MethylAcetylene, Propadiene and Propane. But it has ceased production years ago afaik, and was replaced by "Map Pro", which is pretty much propilene.

 

At least Worthington and Bernzomatic "Map Pro" are, and they work great between 5 and 25ºC, but I've used it at -2ºC without major issues. 

 

 

"Winter" and "summer" are pretty much broad terms, specially since we all live in fairly different places. Around here "winter" is mostly 5ºC-18ºC, with some downs to 0ºC, rarely getting slight negatives 2 or 3 times a year. In this context, Map Pro / propilene get us through without issues. "Summer" is 15-30ºC, with some 33ºC ups, rarely exceeding 35. So propane is usually good enough, and map pro / propilene could get dangerously high pressure.

 

 

The map pro / propilene pressure curve is pretty much the same as the propane one, only at about 10ºC lower. So you can expect it to work at 10ºC as propane does at 20ºC, and at 20ºC as propane at 30ºC, and so on. The recommendation of not using it above 25ºC is because it reaches 170 PSI at 29ºC, which is the max pressure most "green gas" mags are rated for.

 

Now for the R410a, at 0ºC it has the pressure of propane at 18ºC, and at 10ºC it's the same as propane at 30ºC.  So it's roughly a 20ºC lower equivalent. The 170PSI limit isat just about 15ºC, that's what makes it dangerous.  Anyway, the only 2 cases I know of people trying to get 410a in airsoft failed completely, as they were unable to get the liquid into the magazine. It's a pretty weird and unstable gas. 

 

 

Now for the issue on itself, If your gun fails to cicle at 18ºC on propane (100PSI) , I think there might be something wrong with your gun to begin with. Don't want to ask the obvious... but.. have you checked your blowback unit for correct sealing? are you running high output mag valves or just the regular ones? which temperature range are you actually running it in?

[icolater]

It stinks!!! Plus it's not that much better then a good strong green gas like the guarder gas. Co2 is the best form of propellent juice for airdoft guns IMO. It's just the hassle that lets them down, now if only every gun had a delvilhunter mode.