Inokatsu M1911A1 Upgrade Ideas / Efficiency

[Sturm]

Hi! I'm Sturm and this is my first post on this site.

 

I'm not much for pointless introductions over the Internet, so I'll get to business.

 

Anyways, I have myself an Inokatsu M1911. It is a very expensive GBB pistol, and is literally all steel. The internals are basically completely steel as well, including the original piston head, piston, BBU, and hop up. I really like it, and I personally think it was worth the money.

 

What I am struggling with recently is its effiency. I will not run C02, because it is immersion-wrecking, bulky, and extremely ugly. Instead, I am running regular KJW gas magazines, and I want better effiency.

 

I do understand that steel pistols, especially single-stack 1911s, can be quite difficult to be made somewhat efficient. I'm not running 'regular' green gas, but instead Guarder Power-Up gas, which is double the pressure of standard propane. This helps quite a bit, but I am looking for additional input.

 

I have recently swapped out piston heads. The default Inokatsu piston head is made out of steel, which is pretty cool, but it was a pretty bad seal, and gas leaked from it like no tomorrow. I replaced it with an Airsoft Surgeon piston head, and performance has improved significantly. I can now shoot around ~12-14 rounds off of one charge of gas and have the slide generally lock back. That being said, it is late autumn and the weather is not at all optimal for GBBs, steel or not. I'm in the process of installing the included Airsoft Surgeon loading nozzle. However, I am waiting on TM OEM parts from Tokyo Model Company to install it, since the Inokatsu's default nozzle uses the KJW-pin retention design (it is hard to properly describe it). Would this help with effiency a bit more?

 

I also ordered a KWA rocket valve, which I heard can be used in TM-based pistols, and offers a significant boost in effiency. Is there any truth to this?

 

Anything that can help with effiency on an all steel pistol would be very useful. Obviously, I do not want to swap out any springs, or use C02. I have also shimmed my magazines, but I cannot tell if it has helped at all.

 

I don't really want to change the BBU out. The default one is all steel and really interesting. I don't think it really impacts effiency all that much however. I have a UAC BBU lying around. Are those decent BBUs? What are other good ones (black colour only)?

[SuperCriollo]

Try shimming up your gas routers. I've found that greatly improved gas efficiency in my 1911, even when compared to brand new mags !

 

Another idea is to try to source a Volante BBU as well.

[ED-SKaR]

*In b4 ED-SKaR turns up and tells you to use a plastic slide*

 

14 rounds is actually really good for that setup.

 

The best way to increase efficiency of a metal gun is to reduce the weight of the slide, by, say, using a plastic slide.

*There it is!*

 

That aside:

1 CLEANING AND OILING. I say this often and people always have a go at me for keeping on about it, but cleaning your BBU and slide rails really does help GBBs function faster and more efficiently, I once cleaned someones GBB pistol that they were selling because it was 'old and not working well' and afterwards it was 'good as new' and he used it for the next year and a half.

2 make sure that the slide and frame rails are really smooth, polish them if required and keep them oiled whenever you are shooting.

3 Lightweight BBU will still help.

4 Make sure that your piston head is making a good seal with your cylinder, I have a collection of ever so slightly different 0-rings that I change on each gun to make sure that it has the best seal.

[Sturm]

Try shimming up your gas routers. I've found that greatly improved gas efficiency in my 1911, even when compared to brand new mags !

 

Another idea is to try to source a Volante BBU as well.

Yeah, I've been looking at those. Too bad it would basically be impossible to get a 1911 one. I think it is called the Merlin?

 

Well, according to some people on Reddit, Volante BBUs focus more on recoil than improving efficiency. Is there any truth to this? From what I've read, it seems that it increases efficiency greatly, despite the Merlin BBU weighing a tonne (CNC steel allegedly).

 

And yes, I've shimmed three of my usable magazines (and only one performs decently - the rest suck). I didn't observe any significant improvements. Not nearly as much as swapping out the piston head. The AS piston head is literally snug as a bug in the loading nozzle. Too snug actually. That is why I need to get rid of the KJW-spec Inokatsu loading nozzle and replace it with the AS nozzle. Do those good quality nozzles help a lot?

[jal3]

Here is what you do.

Liquid CO2 into your greengas mags (fill from a madbull adapter etc).

RS 1911 hammerspring (about 17lb).

Metal nozzle. NO NOZZLE SPRING. It will crumble.

Maximum recoil spring.

 

Please record it.

[Sturm]

Here is what you do.

Liquid CO2 into your greengas mags (fill from a madbull adapter etc).

RS 1911 hammerspring (about 17lb).

Metal nozzle. NO NOZZLE SPRING. It will crumble.

Maximum recoil spring.

 

Please record it.

And what would happen then? Liquid C02? That is 800 PSI. Completely unregulated, unlike basically all C02 magazines on the market. The magazine would probably implode, if not send a bunch of pot metal shrapnel into my face.

 

The only metal nozzle that is available right now is the UAC aluminium one, which is silver coloured. I would need a black one.

 

And would a RS hammer spring even work? I don't think I would anything that extreme to open a valve of unregulated C02. The default Inokatsu hammer spring can probably successfully release ~400 PSI, since C02 magazines use a regulator so it does not literally shoot 800 PSI.

[jal3]

Both greengas and CO2 mags are unregulated, sorta.

Regulated would indicate that they have an internal regulator stepping the gas pressure down before it reaches the hammer valve.

 

There exists only one actually regulated CO2 mag, and that is the AFC/WEI-Etech CO2 42Rnd Hi-capa mag (probably out of production now). It had an internally adjustable regulator and greengas valve.

 

Instead, they have flow restriction in the valve.

CO2 valves work exactly the same way as greengas valves, but the throughput is TINY compared to greengas.

Due to this a CO2 mag valve will (compared to green gas mag valve):

Require less force to open than otherwise (pushing in a valve with 850psi instead of 130psi behind it)

Let out less gas (co2), resulting in less energy/pressure released into the gun.

 

The bigger the valve surface is, the more gas it'll let through, and the more force it requires to open. That is why you can switch between 850psi CO2 mag and 130psi greengas mag in the same pistol.

 

Yes a RS hammer spring will work. I've used a RS 1911 hammer spring for this purpose when i tested high power gas in Hicapa (pure co2 in GG mag). It is only for full steel triggersets/frames and extreme power setups on GG valves.

A green gas mag with 850psi in will be very very hard to open. I doubt the inokatsu hammerspring can open it (it would be inefficient in normal operation then, the extra energy required to cock it would be unnecessary).

But you could always try your way forward until you find what's needed. After all, using a too strong hammer spring is just wasted recocking energy.

 

But in short, no, CO2 mags are not regulated. There is liquid CO2 pressure behind the valve. It's just a very tiny valve.

 

Will the greengas mag explode? YMMV. Not heard anyone blow their mags apart.

 

Well makes a metal 1911 nozzle that is black. Not tried it, but they seem alright.

Alternatively, it may be possible to surface treat the UAC nozzle for coloring.

 

If you don't feel comfortable with it, you can also try searching for higher power gasses than Guarder Black (200psi ish). Outside airsoft.

[jal3]

My base point is, no matter what you do, you need to increase the energy source.

A 1911 mag on green gas is such a tiny energy source.

[renegadecow]

Buy Volante's bored up BBU.

[Sturm]

Buy Volante's bored up BBU.

I would if they were still available. I don't think the 1911 types are.

[Sturm]

Can anyone confirm if the KWA rocket valves indeed work with Marui design GBBs? I am under the impression they do, but some confirmation would be nice. Do upgraded rocket valves help with efficiency a great deal? The default Inokatsu rocket valve is KJW-style, and is made of steel (the entire gun besides the loading nozzle and the rosewood grips is made of steel).

[icolater]

Rocket valve determines the blowback/FPS value, don't know about Ksc rocket valve working in a Marui nozzle, sorry. But the o ring seal for the nozzle is most important.

[ED-SKaR]

Can anyone confirm if the KWA rocket valves indeed work with Marui design GBBs? I am under the impression they do, but some confirmation would be nice. Do upgraded rocket valves help with efficiency a great deal? The default Inokatsu rocket valve is KJW-style, and is made of steel (the entire gun besides the loading nozzle and the rosewood grips is made of steel).

 

 

Upgraded rocket valves will make more gas go into the shot so that you get higher FPS. When the valve closes it doesn't affect the amount of gas used for blowback, so overall you will get fewer shots per fill of gas.

[Sturm]

Upgraded rocket valves will make more gas go into the shot so that you get higher FPS. When the valve closes it doesn't affect the amount of gas used for blowback, so overall you will get fewer shots per fill of gas.

Well, I installed the Marui OEM nozzle parts into the AS nozzle, along with the KWA rocket valve. The increase in efficiency is literally ridiculous. I only did some brief testing, but the gun consumes almost no gas, or a minuscule amount per shot. It's crazy.

 

However, I noticed all the BBs were shooting a few inches. They were practically rolling out of the barrel, albeit at high velocity. Why could this happen? Is it the KWA rocket valve I installed, or did I possibly turn off the hop up by accident when I was reassembling the pistol? Which makes more sense?

[icolater]

Hop

[Sturm]

Hop

So I probably just turned the hop up off by accident? Or something like that? Good to know.

[DarkLite]

Well, I installed the Marui OEM nozzle parts into the AS nozzle, along with the KWA rocket valve. The increase in efficiency is literally ridiculous. I only did some brief testing, but the gun consumes almost no gas, or a minuscule amount per shot. It's crazy.

 

However, I noticed all the BBs were shooting a few inches. They were practically rolling out of the barrel, albeit at high velocity. Why could this happen? Is it the KWA rocket valve I installed, or did I possibly turn off the hop up by accident when I was reassembling the pistol? Which makes more sense?

 

You've seen a massive reduction in gas usage because you're hardly using any gas. The rocket valve is likely closing far too early, which is not sending enough gas down the barrel to fire the bbs more than 'a few inches' before the blowback cycle commences.

 

In other news, I found that only tapping the accelerator pedal in my car has increased the efficiency to a literally ludicrous degree. My car is hardly consuming any diesel at all, or maybe just a miniscule amount per tap on the accelerator. It's crazy.

 

However, I noticed that my car doesn't seem to move very far. Is it to do with my tires being loosened by accident when I started my car or is it my new tapping method? Which makes more sense?

[Sturm]

You've seen a massive reduction in gas usage because you're hardly using any gas. The rocket valve is likely closing far too early, which is not sending enough gas down the barrel to fire the bbs more than 'a few inches' before the blowback cycle commences.

 

In other news, I found that only tapping the accelerator pedal in my car has increased the efficiency to a literally ludicrous degree. My car is hardly consuming any diesel at all, or maybe just a miniscule amount per tap on the accelerator. It's crazy.

 

However, I noticed that my car doesn't seem to move very far. Is it to do with my tires being loosened by accident when I started my car or is it my new tapping method? Which makes more sense?

I wish I could find it again, but I know there was a thread somewhere about the KWA rocket valves being usable in KJW/WE/TM pistols. The blowback is fine. If the rocket valve was *fruitcage* things up, wouldn't the blowback not function at all? I think I installed everything in the nozzle correctly. The valve blocker is a pain in the *albatross*, but I managed to get the screw in, so I must have got it in correctly.

 

What could happen if the hop up was turned off?

[DarkLite]

I wish I could find it again, but I know there was a thread somewhere about the KWA rocket valves being usable in KJW/WE/TM pistols. The blowback is fine. If the rocket valve was *fruitcage* things up, wouldn't the blowback not function at all? I think I installed everything in the nozzle correctly. The valve blocker is a pain in the *albatross*, but I managed to get the screw in, so I must have got it in correctly.

 

What could happen if the hop up was turned off?

 

Sigh.

 

Reread what I wrote.

 

Your blowback is fine because the valve is still closing (IE: finishing the 'gas forward' phase and actuating the 'gas backwards' phase) but it is closing too quickly, meaning that you aren't getting enough gas down the barrel to fire the bbs properly.

 

If you had somehow turned off the hop-up, your bbs would still go about 30 feet or so, assuming a muzzle energy of about 0.9-1J.

 

That they are only going a few inches tells us that they are not firing at 0.9J. I'd imagine it's closer to 0.05-0.1J. Hence your massive efficiency savings.

 

If you're going to be messing around with rocket valves, it might be advisable to learn what they do and how they work beforehand.

[mimesis]

In other words.  The rocket valve is responsible for two things: sending gas down the nozzle, to propel the bb, and then shutting itself off at an appropriate moment (a few microseconds later), and then directing the rest of the energy to power the rearward movement of the slide.  Your experience tells us that it's doing (1) very poorly, and (2) just fine.  I don't know whether you can find a happy medium with the KWA piece between (1) and (2).  Experimenting with a stiffer rocket valve spring would be a first step (stiffer, so it closes less quickly, allowing more of (1) to develop).