WE AK PMC Shattering BBs

[Sturm]

My WE AK PMC GBBR has a habit of crushing my biodegradable BBs. I have only particularly noticed this when firing full auto. The fragments of the BBs jam up the bolt, and as a result, the BBs that are not affected misfeed and ironically enough, typically 'eject' out of the chamber like bullet casings.

 

I only use biodegradable BBs, so I do not know if this would happen with regular BBs. I have a bag of unopened G&G biodegradable BBs, should I try those instead? The ones I'm using currently are year-old Elite Force biodegradables.

 

I thought I read somewhere that certain WE GBBs have issues with biodegradable BBs? Is there any truth to this?

 

Also of note, I do not know if it makes a difference, but my PMC is a Lvl 1 upgrade from RA-Tech, which includes the CNC steel trigger set.

[DarkLite]

Check your nozzle 'finger' is intact, check with better quality beebs and check that your magazine isn't sitting too low in the receiver.

[Sturm]

Nozzle 'finger?' Is that a silver-coloured strip on top of the nozzle? If that is what you are referring to, yes, it is fully intact.

 

If the magazine was sitting too low in the receiver (I had this problem previously), the gun would not even fire, because the valve knocker would not make adequate contact with the magazine percussion valve.

 

G&G BBs have a good reputation, right? Better than the Elite Force ones that I'm using now?

[Dimitri MdP]

with the "finger" he refers to the arm that actually takes the bb from the magazine into the chamber, which is right bellow the actual nozzle.

Chopping bbs can due to:

1) misalignment or damage int the loading nozzle, feedlips, loading ramp, or hop up.
2) bogus feeding in the magazine, which is a known issue of the latest batch of WE AK mags... check this post.
3) overloading of the magazine (although you can fit 40+bbs in there, you should only load 30)
4) bad bbs (/good bbs gone wrong) 

I would start that list from the bottom up. Some bbs (bio or not) are just too soft for GBBRs. Try G&G bbs first, make sure you only load 30bbs

[ED-SKaR]

year-old Elite Force biodegradables.

 

You're braver than I am.

 

 

I'd also point out that GBBs are generally a lot harder on ammo when feeding than AEGs are, so finding an ammo brand that's on the stronger end will help. 

[vorpalbunnie]

Yeah as ED-SKAR implied Elite Force BBs are absolute *suitcase*, let alone year-old ones.

[Sturm]

So I dumped those Elite Force BBs (well, not completely. I bagged the remainder of them. I'm too cheap to recycle usable BBs, even if they are old).

 

The G&G ones are better, as the force of the bolt carrier will not crack them. However, the misfeed still happens. I tried both magazines I own, same thing.

 

I don't know what to make of it. Semi-auto seems to work fine (to my knowledge), but full auto *fruitcage*s it all up. The G&G BBs actually shoot though, the Elite Force ones would typically just eject out of the chamber (lol).

 

I do not think anything is mechanically wrong the rifle. I think the magazine lip is misfeeding. On both magazines though? I think the magazine is feeding far too many BBs at the same time whilst in full-auto. More than it can realistically shoot. They just pile up on the hop up, and *fruitcage* around and ricochet all over the insides of my gun. What the *fruitcage* is going on?!!

 

Edit: I read the link posted above. Might as well be the magazines (*sighs*), but the feeding problem does not seem to occur in semi-auto. Just full-auto...

[renegadecow]

Is the blowback erratic on full auto as in some shots feel weaker than others?

[Sturm]

Is the blowback erratic on full auto as in some shots feel weaker than others?

Not really, except when cooldown becomes a concern.

[DarkLite]

Could you get some video, preferably in slow motion, of the problem?

It sounds like either your feed lips aren't lining up with your hop up units' feed ramp (IE: mag is sitting too low) or your feeding 'finger' on the nozzle is damaged.

If you need WE parts, I would reccomend either KYairsoft.com or ArmedForces (http://www.guns.com.hk/).

[Dimitri MdP]

wait, so now you're having miss feeds, or still some chopped bbs??

[Sturm]

Could you get some video, preferably in slow motion, of the problem?

It sounds like either your feed lips aren't lining up with your hop up units' feed ramp (IE: mag is sitting too low) or your feeding 'finger' on the nozzle is damaged.

If you need WE parts, I would reccomend either KYairsoft.com or ArmedForces (http://www.guns.com.hk/).

I don't think the magazines are sitting low. I had such a problem before. As aforementioned, if this was the case, the striker would not even make contact with the gas release valve on the magazine, and I wouldn't be able to even fire.

 

I can test a bit more. Semi-auto does not seem to cause any misfeeds or chopping. The Elite Force BBs tended to chop, as a bunch of BBs piled up inside the chamber for some reason (misfeeding), and the force of the bolt carrier I think shattered some of them. The G&G BBs appear to be stronger and more resistant to breaking when this happens. They still seem to misfeed a lot though. I should fire without the top cover and see if I notice anything peculiar.

 

Can you give me a picture of this nozzle 'finger' you speak of?

 

I know KYairsoft. I've ordered from them many times, and they are excellent.

[Sturm]

wait, so now you're having miss feeds, or still some chopped bbs??

I think misfeeds were causing the chopping. The BBs would basically pile up for some reason in the chamber (I suspect this does not occur with semi-auto fire), and the bolt moving back and forth quickly would smash them into a grainy, plastic pulp.

 

The G&G BBs are better made, and from my brief testing, are much less likely to shatter because of the misfeeds and subsequently battering by the bolt.

 

I sort of am hoping the magazines are the culprit. Yeah, they're expensive to replace, but I'm sick of replacing internal *suitcase*. Apparently WE steel cased AKM-type magazines are known to suffer from feeding problems and *suitcase*?

[Dimitri MdP]

Ok.. if the bbs are getting out of the mag but failing to load in the chamber, it's most likely something wrong in the nozzle, feed lips or hop chamber. 

Check the status of the nozzle "finger", the feed ramp in the hop chamber, and the feed lips in the magazine. Also if you've been replacing something in your hop up, make sure it's correctly set in place. Somehow I failed to insert the hop chamber all the way in once, and it cause all sorts of funky behaviour. 

This is the nozzle "finger"


This is the feed ramp (red) and the chamber retainer screw (blue), make sure the feed ramp is in good condition and the chamber is properly aligned and the screw is in (unlike in the pic)


 

[Sturm]

I tested semi auto more. It does not seem to suffer from the feeding problem, no matter how fast I shoot. The crappy feeding is restricted to full auto as far as I can tell. Does this narrow anything down?

 

Actually, the feed lips have really *suitcasey* control over the BBs. They seem to basically 'pour' out of the lips. I pointed the gun down and opened the chamber, and like ten BBs rolled out. I have not seen this happen with me on semi-auto, just full. With full auto the BBs accumulate faster than the loading nozzle can shoot them. Really weird.

 

And yes, the nozzle finger and feeding ramp are perfectly fine. No detectable issues there.

 

My gun has an RA Tech NPAS installed. Does this matter?

[Dimitri MdP]

The weird part is that only mechanical difference between semi and full auto is the disconnector blocked by the selector lever when in full auto. So there's really no differences between the firing modes as far as loading is concerned. 


The bbs shouldn't go out of your feed lips unless pushed forward by the loading nozzle. And that obviously mean only 1 bb should come out of the mag for each gun cycle.
If your bbs are pouring out, then it's definitely a feed lips issue. Perhaps they got deformed from the previous bad quality bbs? 

[Sturm]

The weird part is that only mechanical difference between semi and full auto is the disconnector blocked by the selector lever when in full auto. So there's really no differences between the firing modes as far as loading is concerned.

The bbs shouldn't go out of your feed lips unless pushed forward by the loading nozzle. And that obviously mean only 1 bb should come out of the mag for each gun cycle.

If your bbs are pouring out, then it's definitely a feed lips issue. Perhaps they got deformed from the previous bad quality bbs?

 

Yeah, nothing loading-wise is different between semi and full auto. However, do the magazines act different with semi and full auto? Does something different occur with the feed lips? The lips are pretty hard, but the BBs are a loose fit inside. If the lips are a problem, how could it be that semi auto feeds fine, but full auto is a different story? That is what I cannot understand. And to get things straight, I wouldn't say the Elite Force BBs were 'bad quality,' they just were old and I suppose too soft. The G&G bio BBs can still shatter from a misfeed, just not as often.

 

WE AK magazines are not cheap. We're talking 50$ USD a piece for the AKM steel version (which I am using). The plastic kind is slightly cheaper. Should I try one of those out? If it still doesn't work though, I'm out of more money, unless I can get a refund or an exchange (which basically means I am limited to buying domestically).

 

I'm curious. The way these GBBR mags are designed (internal magazine spring) how can I tell how many BBs I have loaded?

 

Photo of hop-up unit:

[Dimitri MdP]

To load 30 bbs, just use the included "speed loader", it has a mark for 15bbs.

I'm starting to believe you're just trolling by now. There's nothing, not a single thing different between semi and full auto as far as loading goes. The mags acts the same, the gun acts exactly the same (except for the disconnector). Only difference is perhaps more cooldown in full auto.that could -in a extreme case of "I never lubed the seal between the nozzle and the bolt carrier"- cause a bouncy bolt, providing multiple feeds (that should go into the chamber anyway) 

As I said before, It's just physically impossible to get the bbs "pouring out" of a normally working magazine, everything is designed in such way that the nozzle can take 1 and only 1 bb out at the time.You seem to ignore the very basics of how a GBBR works.

Seriously, some decent pics of the nozzle, feed lips (loaded) and the hop chamber, and specially a freaking video would help a lot to diagnose the problem.
 

[renegadecow]

Can you make sure the hammer falls in full auto as it should? I've seen a few steel FCG installs where full auto has the hammer ride the bolt instead which affects blowback consistency and feeding.

[Sturm]

To load 30 bbs, just use the included "speed loader", it has a mark for 15bbs.

I'm starting to believe you're just trolling by now. There's nothing, not a single thing different between semi and full auto as far as loading goes. The mags acts the same, the gun acts exactly the same (except for the disconnector). Only difference is perhaps more cooldown in full auto.that could -in a extreme case of "I never lubed the seal between the nozzle and the bolt carrier"- cause a bouncy bolt, providing multiple feeds (that should go into the chamber anyway)

As I said before, It's just physically impossible to get the bbs "pouring out" of a normally working magazine, everything is designed in such way that the nozzle can take 1 and only 1 bb out at the time.You seem to ignore the very basics of how a GBBR works.

Seriously, some decent pics of the nozzle, feed lips (loaded) and the hop chamber, and specially a freaking video would help a lot to diagnose the problem.

 

Thanks for the accusation.

 

I did put a picture in my last post. Sure, it is *suitcase*, but I cannot do much better. I'll work on taking a video, but I'll need to borrow a GoPro or something like that.

 

I do not have the WE speedloader. I bought the gun from AST (basically RA Tech), already upgraded with almost the whole TCG. I can check the box again, but I don't think I have one. I do have this plastic rod thing. Could that be it? It looks nothing like the speedloaders I am used to, lol. I am just using my TM speedloader. Could that affect anything?

 

I am certainly not trolling. This issue is a giant pain in the *albatross*, and I want it gone.

[Dimitri MdP]

I'm referring to this thing. Surely it doesn't look like a modern speed loader, that's why I used the quotes. But that's pretty much how old school speed loaders looked like, and it's included in all WE GBBRs as modern speed loaders usually snap from the force required to insert bbs in those magazines, and they provide no real control on the bb quantity.


If you look closely, you'll see it has marks for 5, 10 and 15 bbs. The magazines can hold 40+ bbs, but you shouldn't load more than 30 really to prevent damage to the nozzle, magazine spring, and / or the feed lips.


Alright... let's go back.
 

Actually, the feed lips have really *suitcasey* control over the BBs. They seem to basically 'pour' out of the lips. I pointed the gun down and opened the chamber, and like ten BBs rolled out. 

Can you confirm that?  did you understand how the feed lips should be really working? They should never pour out bbs like an AEG would. Never. After you insert the bbs into the mag, they should stay there no matter what, until the finger in your nozzle push them forward one by one with each gun cycle. BBs don't come out from the top of the feed lips, but forwards, pushed by the front part of the nozzle finger.

If you open the bolt, no bb should come out of the mag. If they do, then you definitely have broken feed lips (probably because of overloading, bad bbs, or your previous issue with the magazine sitting too low <--- please tell us what you did to fix it, the real problem might lie there). 

Please confirm if your bbs are able to freely pour out of the lips, if that's the case then definitely the problem is there

[Sturm]

I'm referring to this thing. Surely it doesn't look like a modern speed loader, that's why I used the quotes. But that's pretty much how old school speed loaders looked like, and it's included in all WE GBBRs as modern speed loaders usually snap from the force required to insert bbs in those magazines, and they provide no real control on the bb quantity.

If you look closely, you'll see it has marks for 5, 10 and 15 bbs. The magazines can hold 40+ bbs, but you shouldn't load more than 30 really to prevent damage to the nozzle, magazine spring, and / or the feed lips.

Alright... let's go back.

 

 

 

Can you confirm that? did you understand how the feed lips should be really working? They should never pour out bbs like an AEG would. Never. After you insert the bbs into the mag, they should stay there no matter what, until the finger in your nozzle push them forward one by one with each gun cycle. BBs don't come out from the top of the feed lips, but forwards, pushed by the front part of the nozzle finger.

If you open the bolt, no bb should come out of the mag. If they do, then you definitely have broken feed lips (probably because of overloading, bad bbs, or your previous issue with the magazine sitting too low <--- please tell us what you did to fix it, the real problem might lie there).

Please confirm if your bbs are able to freely pour out of the lips, if that's the case then definitely the problem is there

I was mistaken. The BBs do not 'pour' out freely. They are restrained pretty well. That narrows that down.

 

Now we get to the part about the two issues I thought I had previously gotten rid of. Namely, the mag sitting low, and the magazine release. As you may remember (I know you replied to the thread I wrote about installing the magazine release - a real pain in the *albatross*). Well, I did eventually get the bugger back on. The problem is, the spring was bent considerably in my numerous failed attempts to do so. As a result, the compression was not great. The magazine release was strong enough to hold the magazines, but it was a fairly loose fit. The magazines also have a significant amount of movement in the magwell, when they are locked in. No doubt, this is because of the bent compression spring and weak magazine release. Could this cause misfeeds? WE AKs have extremely violent recoil - almost like a real AK (well, not that extreme, but probably comparable to a 9mm submachinegun). Considering the shaky magazines, and the violent full auto recoil, I guess the misfeeding could occur. This also would explain why the misfeeds do not happen on semi auto, since the recoil is not nearly as strong (and not likely to sway the magazine around inside the magwell).

 

The second issue was because the bottom of the receiver was slightly deformed. It would cause the magazines to sit so low that the striker was too high to make contact with the gas release valve, and thus, I couldn't even fire the thing. I solved this by hammering the misshapen part of the receiver until it was flat. I do not know what caused this in the first place. There is a video on YouTube related to it. Apparently the weight of the steel magazines (I do admit, they weigh a tonne, even for a GBBR magazine!) would force the entire magazine release 'block' down (from deforming the part of the receiver where it was screwed into).

 

That being said, I think shipping from Taiwan could have led to it. Who the hell knows what *suitcase* it could have run into being shipped across the world's biggest ocean and an entire continent.

 

Here are some more pictures (beware, the quality sucks):

 

[renegadecow]

Did you remove the magazine guide and not shorten the screws before putting them back in?

[Sturm]

Did you remove the magazine guide and not shorten the screws before putting them back in?

Yep.

 

So that one stupid thing has led to all of these issues? FML!!!!!!

[renegadecow]

Without shortening the screws it will push the trigger guard down, usually bending the receiver.