Colt Dragoon/Walker Concept

[CatgutViolin]

(Reposting from revolver picture thread)

 

Very nice collection, I'd never heard of Guarder making a Webley but you've just added another item to my wishlist.

 

Random question for you or anyone- do any companies make gas-in-shell revolvers that use CO2, or are they all either CO2 in the grip or duster/green gas in the shell?

 

 

I think the Guarder can be tricky to find.
They initially stated they would make 50 but I don't think there were so many and I only saw them on CRW.
http://www.crw-airsoft.com/webley-mk-vi-service-revolver-full-marking-limited-ver-by-guarder-10317-p.asp

Except the Brokock revolver with some adjustments of the vents in the shelll which probably could take the power of co2, I don't think anyone ever made shells that could contain co2. Actually I don't recollect any airsoft revolver that contain gas in the shell whatsoever.
Most guns with gas require large style shells better suited for rifles but I guess it should be possible who knows what the future holds?

The Tanakas are all Pegasus system with gas in the cylinder and the rest all use gas or co2 in the handle asfaik.

Originally my idea was to convert the brocock revolver into airsoft by drilling the bore and filing the shells from 5.5mm to 6mm. But then it also felt awful to destroy a perfect rifled barrel into a smoothbore possibly failing barrel.
Maybe one could use the brocock shells for another gun but since the system is so realistic it would probably just function in a RS .38/.357 with awful accuracy which obviously is a bad idea.
If you had an as revolver with .38 removable shells as the Dan Wesson 715 and modified the hammer using an RS one it just might work, but that's a difficult project.

 

 

There's Tanaka's long recalled Cassiopoeia line for an example of gas-in-shell. I imagine most manufacturers are avoiding it given its run-in with the law as we saw again with APS.

 

 

Yes of course, how could I forget.
I have given up ever finding one but you are right the Cassiopeia line had green gas shells. I think Tanaka works experienced a similar pre-APS experience with the CEO arrested and 800 guns seized and the whole firm in a short lockdown to seize all production. Probably a lot of criminals thought it would be wise to fire the .500S&W magnum round through a pot metal, abs plastic or at best improved creation alu kit. Or... ?

 

 

Not so much police action for Tanaka. No charges filed but they did their own recall all the same and to be extra safe throttled all their Pegasus revolvers well below .98J even on green gas.

 

 

Thanks for the comprehensive reply, Cesare. I had this idea bouncing around in my head to take a black powder Colt Walker kit and rebuild it for airsoft use, and CO2 shells a la the APS shotguns would have made it a fairly straightforward job. Guess I'll have to keep looking.

[CatgutViolin]

(continued)

 

 

I know black powder firearms aren't regulated in the US, but what's the legality of using percussion caps to propel a chamber full of bbs? Not nearly as powerful as a primer and a whole lot safer than repurposing a cartridge gun.

 

 

That's a clever idea and it would be legal, but such a design would still be able to function as an actual firearm, something that I imagine most field owners would heavily frown upon. I'm thinking the most viable solution might be to gut the gas system from my Wingun SAA and transplant it, but then that also requires transplanting the grip frame to accommodate the CO2 cartridge. I think it's doable, but not nearly as straightforward.

 

 

The problem with that then is you'll need a bored through cylinder. How about a Denix? I'm sure their pot metal is strong enough to contain the pressure of a percussion cap but at the same time won't be able to hold a full charge. I've been chasing the idea for some time now but have no possible supply for anything by Denix. Even small handgun primers are way too powerful and red caps deliver all of 200fps.

 

 

The cap Idea has been done with Brocock shells just a minor modification really. Mostly they used .219 shotgun primers which are way too powerful. Besides the legal issue of building a firearms that is. The green caps i use sounds much louder than a .22 and I think this this is a dead end for using it airsoft.

You also have to consider how to make a percussion system into a direct fire system like rim fire or preferably central fire. A Walker would be awesome since they are such monsters but maybe if you could get hold of say a Colt 1861 with a Richards-Mason CF cartridge conversion and that is legal without special permits. There were some other guns period converted too but I think these are the easiest to find.

Then you could use Brocock shells with just small alterations. That is throating the shell from 5.5mm to 6mm.

So all you need is TACs aka BACs Tandem or Brocock air cartridges a open 9mm cylinder and free bore preferably with possibility to insert a AS precision barrel.

Are the Denix guns all with non-plugged barrels and free cylinders??
Always wanted to build a LeMat for Airsoft *grin*

 

 

I wouldn't trust a Denix, not just from a safety perspective but functionally, as their build quality makes old CYMA pot metal look like CNCed steel by comparison. I'm not sure if they're fully-functioning in the first place (I suspect not), but even if they are, I would expect the mechanism to eventually fall apart as it unfortunately did on my converted Denix side-by-side. Cylinder pawls and pot metal don't mix well.

 

For the real Walker and Dragoon, there is a .45 LC cartridge conversion on the US market. I imagine it would work perfectly with the Brocock cartridge, but probably wouldn't have enough space to do the specific idea I had in mind (multiple BBs per chamber, because it's a 4.5lb handgun and because I have an unhealthy obsession with shotguns).

 

Alternatively, a 3D printed cylinder could work. I did find files for a Colt Walker online. Buy a real Walker, print a cylinder, bore out the cylinder, and either transplant CO2 guts or figure out a Brocock or percussion cap system?

 

 

That sounds like a plan i really hope you make something, maybe make a post on it later?

You might check out the angel apm50 rounds if they might fit a .45?

 

 

Had a look at the APM50s online, but I can't find their actual dimensions, so I suspect they're probably too long. I'd really like to build a Walker or Dragoon and intend to make a build log, I just need to figure out the best method first.

 

 

I know Davide Pedersoli has made a Shell system for indoor shooting with primers in .45Colt shooting indoor balls in .44 cal. But that is a primer built system.

Maybe we should move this discussion to other part of the forum? Going a bit off topic?

 

So, that's where we are so far. Personally I'm leaning heavily away from using any kind of actual combustion, as I can't imagine I'd be allowed to use it on any airsoft field in the US for safety, liability, and insurance reasons.

[renegadecow]

With any gas in cartridge system you won't be able to hold more than 3 bbs. Only efficient way left to get max shot count would be to stuff it with Umarex SAA guts and this type of cartidge conversion unless you plan on swapping whole cylinders ala Pale Rider, in which case, ditching individual cartridges altogether and have multiple 3D printed cylinders would be more economical.

[Cesare]

So main focus would be finding a good cartridge. AFAIK all BACs are for .38 cal. This guy fires BACs from a pietta in .38 but with a .177 pellet

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ViQY18iq584

There are cylinder conversions for the Walker to fire .45LC but I doubt you find one for .38 since it doesn't make sense to mfg insert barrels.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/cartridge-conversion-cylinders/r-d-conversion-cylinders/howell-old-west-cartridge-conversion-cylinder-for-uberti-walker-45-colt-rdwalku

Maybe if you could make insert tubes from .45 to .38? And then use BACs

Walther Lothar also makes conversion cartridges from .45LC to .22LR but even though they are high quality they would require some serious machining skills to adapt the BACs system.

[CatgutViolin]

With any gas in cartridge system you won't be able to hold more than 3 bbs. Only efficient way left to get max shot count would be to stuff it with Umarex SAA guts and this type of cartidge conversion unless you plan on swapping whole cylinders ala Pale Rider, in which case, ditching individual cartridges altogether and have multiple 3D printed cylinders would be more economical.

 

I happen to have two of the Umarex/Wingun SAAs. My initial concept was to stuff the guts of one into the Walker/Dragoon body, and then build or convert a cylinder with 6mm vinyl tubing in the chambers to hold multiple BBs as on my 'ratshot' revolver shells. That way I could get around 8 BBs in the Dragoon or 10 in the Walker (total cylinder length / 6mm), and reload similarly to the real thing.

 

However, the main problem I'm seeing is I'm not sure how to fit the gas system. In addition to the difficulty of fitting the valve and gas router around the hammer, on the SAA the 'cradle' for the 12g CO2 cartridge is directly molded into the frame. In theory I could epoxy the gas system into the Walker/Dragoon frame, but the 'cradle' that holds the CO2 cartridge in place needs to be sturdy and strong. A secondary problem is that the 12g cartridge is longer than the actual Dragoon/SAA-sized grip, hence why the Umarex has the comically-long grip, but the Walker and Whitneyville Dragoon grips are about the same length as the Umarex, and there do exist 8g cartridges which are shorter.

 

These issues are why I was also considering just taking the SAA frame, which is nearly identical to the Dragoon's aside from the top strap, and modifying it, affixing a Dragoon front end and either modifying the current cylinder or 3D printing a new one, winding up with a sort of hybrid Dragoon cartridge conversion. The issue with that approach is that I seriously doubt its durability. The Walker and Dragoon have an extremely thick center axle that supports the weight of the forend, while the SAA has a much thinner (non-fixed) pin and distributes the weight along the frame.

[Cesare]

To sum up; you could use either

1 Co2 in frame a la Wingun. Rather a complex build but really cool if you succeed. But the frame issue is a bit of a snag.

2 BACs shells. Largest problem is they are all made for .38 cal

3 Tanaka Pegasus gas in cylinder practical since the whole system is within the cylinder, but no removable shells.

4 or maybe IF you could find a Hartford HWS Remington that system could fit a Walker. HWS also made a Walker model gun. Might be worth checking out. Always wanted one myself

[CatgutViolin]

I think I'm going to tentatively give #1 a try, using the SAA as a base and modifying the forend and topstrap. I also found some 3D print files for a Walker on Thingiverse, so I'm going to see if I can get the printer at work to spit out a cylinder for me to test with. My major concern there is whether the cylinder indexing grooves will stand up to abuse, but I suppose the worst-case scenario is I print another or just modify the SAA cylinder.

 

As I said before, the sticking point is that cylinder pin's durability, but I think I might have a solution. On the real one, the cylinder pin is screwed tightly into the frame, and supports the weight of the barrel assembly, which simply slots into the frame under the cylinder. I'm thinking I might be able to use a screw to firmly secure the barrel assembly to the frame, then epoxy the cylinder pin into the barrel assembly, with it simply resting in its notch in the rear frame. That way, the weight will be supported on the frame, with the pin preventing it from torquing under the barrel's weight. That should be more durable than relying on the pin to keep it intact.

 

Giving the SAA frame a nice brass paint job on the appropriate areas should sell it.

[CatgutViolin]

Unfortunately, it seems #1 is a no-go. The Dragoon/Walker frame is substantially larger than the Single Action Army and the proportions don't seem to work- the Walker cylinder is absolutely enormous compared to the SAA frame. I could downsize it, but that would bother me to no end, so I'm going to do a little more research and rethink things.

[renegadecow]

*whispers in ear*
percussion caps

[CatgutViolin]

Like I said, it's a clever idea, but fields in the US wouldn't let me use it for a number of reasons, and my local CQB field has a no-pyro rule to begin with.

 

Now, I think I may have been a little hasty in calling #1 a no-go. The main difference between the Dragoon and the SAA in the frame is the height, which I think can be rectified with steel or aluminum sheeting. Also, because I have poor impulse control and can't resist sales, I ordered both an Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon and a Denix replica. Either I can modify the real one to accommodate the airsoft guts (looking more and more unlikely), or I can use the real one as a reference and modify the SAA with Denix parts.

[CatgutViolin]

Well, I got my real Dragoon:

 

 

As I suspected, converting it to airsoft is out of the question, but dimensionally it's a lot closer to the SAA than anticipated and provides an excellent reference. The current plan goes something like this:

 

-Find a way to bulk out the, uh, 'ball' behind the cylinder (whatever it's called).

-Chop off the topstrap.

-Chop off the forend.

-Replace the cylinder with one I 3D printed.

-Bore out said 3D printed cylinder and fit each chamber with the vinyl tubing I use for my shells.

-Use sheet aluminum to make 'sideplates' to bulk out the SAA frame a little and continue it forwards.

-Make another plate on the bottom, slotting around the trigger guard, to heighten the frame and provide structural reinforcement.

-Replace the entire forend with the one from the Denix.

-Fit the spring-loaded barrel assembly to the Denix barrel. If not possible, replace the barrel with pipe and Dremel to shape.

-Slot a barrel to fit in the Denix.

-Paint.

 

I suppose there's no way to edit the thread title for accuracy?

[renegadecow]

On revolvers the parts of the frame that extend out behind the cylinder is generally called a recoil shield.

[CatgutViolin]

[i]That's[/i] it, thank you. The current best candidate for a solution seems to be to cut a ping-pong ball to shape and use it to layer over the recoil shield, but that seems a little crude.