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Dentonboy

Need a friendly favour from Stateside if possible please?

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Hi all, would anyone be willing to buy and ship or sell a Trijicon MM07F mount to me in the UK at all please?

 

Seems that posting to the UK is frowned upon, but I really need one.

 

If anyone can please help, I'd appreciate it immensely.

 

Thanks

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ah ITAR, a set of rules that was designed to stop high end tech and weapons falling into enemy hands and instead prosecutes people for sending Pmags in the post XD. 

 

Try contacting Brownells UK they may be able to get one for you as they are one of the UKs largest firearms/ accessories importers. 

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Thanks, had not realised the seriousness of potential repercussions.

 

 

yeah, i was shocked when i saw how bad i can been when i was looking at buying a lupold HAMR sight :( 

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Would not have thought the export of a 3cm squared piece of metal which attaches to a rail would be so serious!!!

Not to mention a stock designed for the most popular sporting rifle... >_>

IIRC, RainierArms.com offer help with shipping ITAR-restricted items abroad, or so their website claims. I was looking at the HERA CQR stock today, but since it's hard to get a full-length M16 GBBR these days, I decided to pass on it for now.

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Not to mention a stock designed for the most popular sporting rifle... >_>

IIRC, RainierArms.com offer help with shipping ITAR-restricted items abroad, or so their website claims. I was looking at the HERA CQR stock today, but since it's hard to get a full-length M16 GBBR these days, I decided to pass on it for now.

 

 wow! thanks for the heads up.

 

https://www.rainierarms.com/export/

 

So I wonder if they can help me acquire some Steiner IR lasers?

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It's not just frowned upon, it's more like we can get serious jail time and fines if we send one across a border without the proper paperwork.

 

Can you please explain the specifics in relation to the item he is requesting?

 

In general as a blanket statement what you are saying might be true, but ITAR is not (primarily at least) an export ban of items, but a set of rules to regulate the export of ITAR classified items.

 

Seriously doubt that a rail scope mount is even ITAR classified.

 

Probably just Trijicon not wanting to deal with international orders.

 

OpticsPlanet has it for $92 USD at which point ITAR doesn't really apply anymore for most items due to something called "Small parts exemption" clause or something like that. I used to buy tons of stuff from Brownells in batches of sub $100 USD orders (limit is not including shipping). Can't anymore since Brownells Sweden took over the business here.

 

If there is a restriction in place for the item, either they will notify you at checkout, or notify you after the order and cancel it and refund the money (pretty sure that site is legit and good to deal with).

If not it will be sent out, and unless there is a problem in the UK law from buying a sight rail mount you should be good.

 

Can't recall if they (item manufacturer) still had to be DDTC registered even if the item was not ITAR restricted though. Been a while.

 

And the tip about asking Brownells UK is a pretty good idea also.

 

Having said all that, you obviously still need to make sure it's all within the law of both the sending party and for you as the receiving party.

 

For me, I looked stuff up on Swedish sites to see what was restricted or not, and then Brownells.com had notes on what was ITAR or otherwise restricted and that helped me determine which was safe to buy and not. 

I recall one order having an item removed because the manufacturer was not DDTC registered.

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Can you please explain the specifics in relation to the item he is requesting?

 

In general as a blanket statement what you are saying might be true, but ITAR is not (primarily at least) an export ban of items, but a set of rules to regulate the export of ITAR classified items.

 

Seriously doubt that a rail scope mount is even ITAR classified.

 

Probably just Trijicon not wanting to deal with international orders.

 

OpticsPlanet has it for $92 USD at which point ITAR doesn't really apply anymore for most items due to something called "Small parts exemption" clause or something like that. I used to buy tons of stuff from Brownells in batches of sub $100 USD orders (limit is not including shipping). Can't anymore since Brownells Sweden took over the business here.

 

If there is a restriction in place for the item, either they will notify you at checkout, or notify you after the order and cancel it and refund the money (pretty sure that site is legit and good to deal with).

If not it will be sent out, and unless there is a problem in the UK law from buying a sight rail mount you should be good.

 

Can't recall if they (item manufacturer) still had to be DDTC registered even if the item was not ITAR restricted though. Been a while.

 

And the tip about asking Brownells UK is a pretty good idea also.

 

Having said all that, you obviously still need to make sure it's all within the law of both the sending party and for you as the receiving party.

 

For me, I looked stuff up on Swedish sites to see what was restricted or not, and then Brownells.com had notes on what was ITAR or otherwise restricted and that helped me determine which was safe to buy and not. 

I recall one order having an item removed because the manufacturer was not DDTC registered.

 

 

Guilty in that I don't really know. It's just what I've seen and heard. Cursory glances at canadian firearm forums mention the small parts exemption but say some scope rings/mounts are still restricted for export. Generally the ones that have had US Department of Defense (DoD) contracts in the past. And while purely semantics, the small parts clause only applies to registered exporters. So if I were to mail a magpul RVG to Canada that is not okay (says so on the box even) BUT Brownells/whoever can. It's a big legal jumble that varies case to case. 

 

After reading the official ITAR paperwork to make myself more educated on the topic, it seems that DoD-modified/issued commercial equipment  is banned for export without license as are the accessories/components that come with it. Which would explain this mount not being okay. 

 

If you want, one of my family friends here is an ex-ICE field agent so I could see if he knows anything on this matter.

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If anyone wants some additional light reading: 

 

ITAR: http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar.html

DDTC; https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/

EAR: https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/export-administration-regulations-ear

CCL: https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/commerce-control-list-ccl

 

Found an interesting and airsoft related post here, not sure of the quality of the source though: http://www.exportlawblog.com/archives/8532

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Everything can be itar. a grip screw can fall under that.

 

it mainly goes by intended use. Take 2 3mm screws. One from your hardware store, and one for a 1911 grip.  They are identical. yet one is itar controlled because it's intended use is for a controlled item (weapon).

 

The rules are technically in place so there is a legal recourse against people exporting containers to unfriendly factions (think some freedom fighters in Columbia) and the like. The actual list of effectively enforced items is very short. Specialty optics like holosights, anything that's NFA controlled (suppressors etc), night vision is a major no go and restricted even on the domestic market, and sometimes conversion kits for weapons (carbine to SBR, etc) are what no sane entity will ever send overseas. As far as filing itar forms, no, that's not an option. To do that and to actually have them processed, you have to be a licensed exporter exporting for commercial purposes to a licensed importer on the other side. As a private entity, you cannot actually file itar paperwork to send some bloke a magpul sling in the isle of man. It doesn't work that way.

 

Some more food for thought, anything you guys buy from china is in ITAR violation. But because it's intended purpose is a replica, it doesn't fall under that ruleset unless you are in Australia, which bans everything including knife imports.

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If anyone wants some additional light reading: 

 

ITAR: http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar.html

DDTC; https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/

EAR: https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/export-administration-regulations-ear

CCL: https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/commerce-control-list-ccl

 

Found an interesting and airsoft related post here, not sure of the quality of the source though: http://www.exportlawblog.com/archives/8532

better to just read all the case data, at least the parts that are public than his commentary which completely fails to understand what the case is about. its a criminal enterprise case. 

 

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-dcd-1_14-cr-00069

 

 

the issue is way deeper and has to do with what I said; they were exporting a lot of these things. netted profit of over 60000$ from of ITAR items (so do the math how much was exported) to a person who was accepting them and reselling/distributing in Thailand in violation of thai law to boot.  aka, the foreign "agent", also unlicensed.  

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Well... It's a bit beyond sending out a scope mount in that article.

 

 

 

The recipient was a man Marchionna had befriended on the Internet over a mutual interest in nonlethal Airsoft weapons, prosecutors said, but the Finnish man in turn allegedly supplied outlaw motorcycle gangs in Finland with the parts. The parts included rifle upper receivers, ammunition magazines, gun sights, and advanced target pointer illuminator aiming lights.

 

I know for a fact that all of those except "gun sights" (depends on the type here) are a no no to send out even for officially licensed gun shops like Brownells without the proper paperwork.

 

Surprised they didn't send him off to Guantanamo and waterboarded him for that.

 

But yes, asking private citizens to send random gun parts from the US to other countries can be a very bad idea so the best thing is to find an official shop either in the US or locally that can sell the part to you and has the proper licensing etc.

Like I said if it is a trustworthy shop they will have info on the website about any restrictions and their customer service can answer questions and even if you were to be able to add the item to your cart and buy it they usually review all outbound international orders and remove what is not allowed to be exported without license or paperwork.

 

I don't however think they care much about the laws on the receiving end. I.e. if it is legal for them to export MBUS polymer sights but that is classified as a terrorist weapon of mass destruction component in your country that's up to you to find out.

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I've purchased many items from OpticsPlanets over the years, including a LaRue mount, Streamlight torch, and a few other bits and bobs - Just ask them! They'll be able to tell you if they'll just export it or not. No point discussing it here between people who don't know for sure.

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Well, the trick is, registered companies like OpticsPlanet and Rainer Arms are allowed to export since they jumped through the hoops and got all the necessary paperwork. Any private person attempting to do the same would face legal consequences.

 

*suitcase*, I'm amazed that the local law didn't give me any *suitcase* for flogging a box of Beryl mags to Belgium, considering that a few years later they tried to prosecute a guy for sending a railed AK foregrip and some other junk (mags IIRC) abroad... well, at least until he wasn't murdered by a mentally unstable walt.

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DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:DrAlexanderTobacco, on 29 Jun 2017 - 5:03 PM, said:

I've purchased many items from OpticsPlanets over the years, including a LaRue mount, Streamlight torch, and a few other bits and bobs - Just ask them! They'll be able to tell you if they'll just export it or not. No point discussing it here between people who don't know for sure.

Lets try this again. Anything that is controlled cannot be exported without being in violation. Some do it because the items are not really enforced, some do it because it is sometimes literally impossible to make a determination, but optic planet like all the others, need to export to a licensed importer in your country, who then has to SELL it to you for anything that is controlled in any way shape or form. YOU cannot receive anything from an exporter directly.

 

A retailer can set their own policy of how far they will bend/interpret procedure. You can go to 10 of them for the same item and you will get a different answer from each one so that won't get you anywhere in actually figuring out the legality. That answer will also depend on where the item is going; whether the destination is friendly to the exporting country or hostile (like iran).

 

the misunderstanding of the laws and procedures is mind boggling. I tried to explain that while itar covers 99% of the items, only about 10% of that is actually what you should be concerned about :) Then there is the whole intended design use as I said. The reason you can get a magpul copycat from china that works on the real thing is because the design of that item is for toy use. However this doesn't work the other way; intended use isn't what YOU intend to use it as, but what the item was designed and built to be used for. That's clearly outlined in the thai case up a few posts above - a good read nonetheless.  Intended use would be covered under you local laws, not international regulations.

 

the people who get nailed repeatedly export the offensive niches and do so for commercial gain.  which makes it a criminal enterprise case

 

and this is the reason why so few will even bother shipping international. it is too much of an effort and risk to figure it out for each item. and sometimes, you cannot ever determine it. If you make a magazine yourself for an antique firearm (legal to do), can you export it? So all the small craft shops that make little addon parts just ship domestically. Keeps them safe.

 

As to how something is determined if its on that list or not, that honestly primarily comes from the manufacturer. Typically any company that markets to military/law enforcement will be 100% itar - magpul, trijicon. and that includes every single bit and piece that they made. Further, specific items regardless of origin or maker, are de facto regulated. Holosighs (eotech, leupold etc), night vision, thermal instruments, certain spotting scopes. Hunting scopes are the only generally freely distributable optics product (on a per product restriction still present but rare, very rare) since bolt action hunting rifles aren't military weapons.

 

 

Others, such as say, leapers/utg are dual use. They have products for airsoft and civilian market regular firearms; often the same ones at that. As such, their products are not as strictly regulated as others.

 

 I think it's rather clear now? Good thread tho. Should be sticky maybe if somebody wants to make bullet points

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Yeah.  I think someone as big as Optics Planet knows what they're doing and won't risk their business sending something they shouldn't be.

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DrAlexanderTobacco, on 30 Jun 2017 - 1:35 PM, said:

So to confirm, Dentonboy should ask OpticsPlanet if they're ok to ship it. Great!

 

E: To expand further, I understand the stringency of ITAR regulations. My point being though is that this all falls on the retailer. 

Yep should or just order away and if they ship enjoy it >>>

 

 

Here is the thing. Them selling it to you gives you plausible deniability and places the blame on them if anything happens. It doesn't make it any less infringing if  itar is violated. Major difference! As the seller, it is their responsibility to ensure what they ship can be shipped. Nothing more, nothing less.  However the exporting country (say USA or UK or whoever) cannot go after you for dealing in restricted items because after all, there is no conspiracy to smuggle out anything. You made a purchase, the seller *fruitcage*ed up, you are good to go.

 

If you local government wants to come after you for importing that (receiving) that is under your local laws.  

 

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