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wazzy1013

"High Speed" Setups

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Hey all, as the topic says, wondering if could get some input on high speed setups, meaning guns, not gear :P . Mainly the types of gears, motor, springs (pending on gears DSG vs non people use).  As my sig. indicates, for roughly the last 5 years, i've only run PTW's, so my knowledge of parts isnt what it use to be or who makes good items now.

 

Curious what is a good high speed type setup, for both semi auto trigger response, and "hose'em" full auto (pre/post mosfet)?  I know people will say DSG, but aside from that, are there good gears for high speed; as i remember "back in the day", Prommy and Phoenix were highly desired and good for high speed gears?

 

Also pistons ; supercore? something w/ full metal teeth, etc ??

 

Thanks for letting me pick the brains out there. Have a good day

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Supercore :3 This guy is old!

 

The most common name is still SHS, in it's various brand names.

 

I have toyed so much with highspeed guns, but i can truly say that DSG is pointless for almost anything bar pushing limits.

The problem isn't achieving a high rate of fire, it's making a gun shoot straight, be efficient and not break. DSG's run into the same pre-engagement issues as single stroke rifles.

 

As you go lower and lower in energy, it becomes harder and harder to make a highspeed rifle.

 

Highspeed is not all that necessary anymore for a good trigger response. The Gate Titan MOSFET has some excellent precocking features that, together with the right motor/gear setup, makes for some insanely fast semi spam guns.

 

Cookie cutter setup:

ASG 30K or 35K motor

13:1 SHS gears, Shortstroked 3-5 teeth as necessary. NO pickup delayer!

Any decent M140 spring

ASG Ultimate ceramic bearings + 1 bushing under spur

Gate Titan unit (or whichever MOSFET system you fancy)

Guarder spring guide

SHS Steelrack piston

SHS/any aluminium piston head

ASG ultimate / any aluminium cylinder head

 

Then tappet/nozzle as necessary for fit. But the above (M140 SS5) should give up to 430fps. You cut teeth on the sector until you land down at 430 fps.

Or M130 spring if you want 400fps.

 

This setup will run efficiently and shoot .28 BB's at max compression in a laser forever at 30-35rps. I never advise going over 35rps, it's a waste of ammo. It's less efficient combat wise.

 

Prometheus, Systema, Modify, Siegetek etc still exist.

Piston wise, SHS steelrack is the only choice really. Never ever any plastic teeth on pistons.

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thats some great info. I probably should of said, for fps, i'd be looking in the 350 w/ .2 (what my cqb field allows). Also, this wouldnt be going into a "normal" aeg (ie m4), it is something unique and new ...... that change anything from above ? 

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What? Of course it can.

 

 

My go to UK CQB set up right now is as follows:

 

SHS 16tpa High Torque Neo motor

SHS 12:1 gearset, short stroked 4

M120 spring

Mosfet

Whatever compression parts you want, as long as the piston is AOE adjusted and has the 2nd tooth removed and the 3rd tooth half removed

 

With bearings on the piston head and spring guide, that set up will get you around 0.95J (depending on your barrel length) at 40-41rps on an 11.1v lipo.

 

If you want to try and get as close to 350 w/ 0.2g (1.1J) then you can simply short stroke only 3 teeth.

 

That set up will still have volume to fling 0.28g bbs through a 450ish mm barrel, though I'd stick to around the 360mm mark.

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thats some great info. I probably should of said, for fps, i'd be looking in the 350 w/ .2 (what my cqb field allows). Also, this wouldnt be going into a "normal" aeg (ie m4), it is something unique and new ...... that change anything from above ? 

 

Same setup, use M110 or M120 spring depending on your airseal. Don't really recommend going higher than 35, aim for 30. The better the airseal, the lower the RPS.

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ty for the info. I probably would be aiming for about 30, not to much more; as no idea how the gun ima be using will take it all; as id prob only start w/ the gear, spring and piston before touch anything else. As for mosfet unit, there is one already in this, and doubt any on the market atm would work for it yet 

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Build the DSG man, SSG trigger response can't touch them and they are no less reliable than an SSG. Considerably more so than any OOTB gun assuming you correct the AOE and use an SHS piston. As you can use a motor with a high TPA, they are quite power efficient, which is nice if you're restricted to buffer tube style LiPos.

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Driving a DSG, even a high efficiency one, on a buffer tube lipo is going to be a tall order. You need a lot of current to run a DSG, especially as the start up load is going to be very high compared to a standard SSG.

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I generally use 1200mAh 25-50C 3S butterfly sticks inside buffer tubes, and they work well on a 22TPA DSG shooting around 1.1J. The only problem you have with a solid (i.e. 25-50C discharge) buffer tube LiPos is pure capacity, in so much as you can chew a lot rounds pretty quickly if you want. Personally I prefer a full stock and more like a 3000mAh version, and that lets me shoot all day on semi without the cell voltage dropping much past 4v. 

 

Things are a bit grim here in NZ... quantities of LiPo batteries aren't easy to get here as they need a certified ground based travel path. That's a bit of a problem when you're a small island in the *albartroth* end of the world. As such I've been trying a few basic ones from AliExpress. This one is a ZCI 22TPA SHS 18:1 9T DSG with a Guarder SP150M, and it seems to run ok on that crappy off brand 3S 1200mAh 25C. You can just see the ends of the BTC Spectre wiring, so it has what I think is 18AWG wiring which slips up nicely down past the battery (round tube, flat sided battery). The output wires on the battery take up a surprising amount of space, so I trimmed them down to a few inches long. Note the stock on this can only retract one position. That's fine for me, but something to note if you are short of arm.

 

lA2wYks.jpg

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I generally use 1200mAh 25-50C 3S butterfly sticks inside buffer tubes, and they work well on a 22TPA DSG shooting around 1.1J. The only problem you have with a solid (i.e. 25-50C discharge) buffer tube LiPos is pure capacity, in so much as you can chew a lot rounds pretty quickly if you want. Personally I prefer a full stock and more like a 3000mAh version, and that lets me shoot all day on semi without the cell voltage dropping much past 4v. 

 

Things are a bit grim here in NZ... quantities of LiPo batteries aren't easy to get here as they need a certified ground based travel path. That's a bit of a problem when you're a small island in the *albartroth* end of the world. As such I've been trying a few basic ones from AliExpress. This one is a ZCI 22TPA SHS 18:1 9T DSG with a Guarder SP150M, and it seems to run ok on that crappy off brand 3S 1200mAh 25C. You can just see the ends of the BTC Spectre wiring, so it has what I think is 18AWG wiring which slips up nicely down past the battery (round tube, flat sided battery). The output wires on the battery take up a surprising amount of space, so I trimmed them down to a few inches long. Note the stock on this can only retract one position. That's fine for me, but something to note if you are short of arm.

 

 

I'd be interested to see if you get a measurable increase in RoF with a massive brick lipo with that set up. 1200mAh at 25-50C is only 30-60A, compared to a 3000mAh at 40-80C being capable of 120A to 240A.

 

I can understand if you're starved for good quality lipos, though.

 

As for your set up, in ideal conditions you should be pulling about 44-45rps, yes?

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No, it doesn't appear to increase the ROF, although I've not tested this particular one I have tested quite a few others I've built. This one draws about 28A. I'm not sure of RPS, but would be in that range, probably a little lower. I run it on shorty Amobea mags which are around a 120 rounds, and probably wouldn't shoot more than 6-8 in ~3 hour, so I've not actually run this one completely flat to see just how long it'll go. The ROF is easy to adjust, and I think this one is pinned closer to 25 by the Spectre... at least that is where I keep my P*s, and this one sounds pretty similar. If you need to go up you can just drop a 16TPA motor in it, but frankly nobody likes getting shot with anything over 30, and even that is pretty easy to abuse. I keep meaning to build one with a 28TPA motor, but I've been mucking around more with pistols and shotguns and I just can't seem to find the time. Getting a range of decent LiPos in airsoft shapes is one thing, but another is that in things like a folding stock AK, or an MP5SD6, or a VSS, etc, battery space is at a premium.

 

Really though if you want to go ham on the trigger, fit a full stock and a big LiPo, but I figure somebody who has been 5 years on a PTW probably has learnt some restraint by now  :D

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Folding stock AK isn't too bad, actually, as long as you're running a triangle side-folder. It's pretty easy to fit a decent brick inside the stock and hide it with a ruskie tourniquet.

 

Though your DSG set up is within the parameters of your batteries' discharge ratings, it's veeeeeery close.

25rps is a bit low for a DSG build, to be honest - I get that you're eking out the ultra quick trigger response but it's a lot of work to put in for just 25rps, considering you can get slightly more than that with 12:1 SSGs and a 16tpa motor on a 7.4v.

 

One thing that the SSG definitely has over a DSG is that it's a lot easier to build and is a LOT more forgiving to set up.

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Yeah I've seen some cool things done with paracord on those AK stocks, although I'm not a big fan of running wires externally like that.

 

I'm all about the trigger response, so it's worth the extra expense over an SSG for me. Also the 12:1 to 16TPA is harder on the battery than the DSG, so if space is a premium I tend to lean towards DSGs though.

 

As far as work goes though, it's only trimming the tappet plate (like 2 seconds with a craft knife) and big arms to get the spring in. I literally build my SSGs and DSGs in exactly the same manner. Same tolerancing, same parts list (sector gear aside). As far as I can tell, neither are easier to build (excepting levering the big spring in, but I use QCS boxes for all my DSGs now). Those Seigtek gears will quite happily cut their way through the steel teeth on a badly AOE corrected SHS blue without hesistation, in my experience they're no less forgiving. After looking into them, I didn't see what all the fuss (cited difficulty etc) was about, so I think my second gearbox opening was a DSG. The way I figure it is if DSGs were standard in everything, nobody would give them a second thought.

 

I apply a lot of the same techniques I learnt building cars and motorcycles (i.e. measure the end float on the gears, dry assemble each piece in the shell individually and with the next part it coexists looking for any binding), and have never had any trouble. I also don't baby them like the DSG builds you see on Youtube; if it can't handle holding the trigger down for at least 10 seconds any time you feel like it, then they're doing it wrong! I really like Brill's SSG AK video where he locks the trigger down for literal minutes, that's how it's supposed to be!  :D

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Yeah I've seen some cool things done with paracord on those AK stocks, although I'm not a big fan of running wires externally like that.

 

I'm all about the trigger response, so it's worth the extra expense over an SSG for me. Also the 12:1 to 16TPA is harder on the battery than the DSG, so if space is a premium I tend to lean towards DSGs though.

 

As far as work goes though, it's only trimming the tappet plate (like 2 seconds with a craft knife) and big arms to get the spring in. I literally build my SSGs and DSGs in exactly the same manner. Same tolerancing, same parts list (sector gear aside). As far as I can tell, neither are easier to build (excepting levering the big spring in, but I use QCS boxes for all my DSGs now). Those Seigtek gears will quite happily cut their way through the steel teeth on a badly AOE corrected SHS blue without hesistation, in my experience they're no less forgiving. After looking into them, I didn't see what all the fuss (cited difficulty etc) was about, so I think my second gearbox opening was a DSG. The way I figure it is if DSGs were standard in everything, nobody would give them a second thought.

 

I apply a lot of the same techniques I learnt building cars and motorcycles (i.e. measure the end float on the gears, dry assemble each piece in the shell individually and with the next part it coexists looking for any binding), and have never had any trouble. I also don't baby them like the DSG builds you see on Youtube; if it can't handle holding the trigger down for at least 10 seconds any time you feel like it, then they're doing it wrong! I really like Brill's SSG AK video where he locks the trigger down for literal minutes, that's how it's supposed to be!  :D

 

Of note: The recent SHS piston batches have been mega-*suitcase*. They've changed up their heat treatment on the racks and they fail pretty consistently. I've taken to using CYMA pistons for the time being.

 

What I meant with 'forgiving' is that a DSG will start showing problems very quickly when things are even a tiny bit off kilter - say your sorbo pad isn't quite 100% cut to the cylinder head and has a gap near the edge. In an SSG you'd not see any issue but in a DSG that 'dead volume' would give you a sharp muzzle energy reduction very quickly.

 

In an SSG you can get away with looser shimming than is strictly speaking ideal, in a DSG you'll start seeing accelerated wear quick.

 

In an SSG you can use decent quality bearings without worrying too much, in a DSG that's shrapnel waiting to happen.

 

In a short stroked SSG you can trim the tappet return spring a few coils and be fine up to 40ish RPS but in a higher RoF DSG that spring length becomes more and more critical.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've built DSGs for my own use and for others, I'm on to my 12th DSG build by now, but for a newbie to AEGs and to teching (a la le OP of this thread), a short-stroked SSG is cheaper and easier to set up.

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A shunt and a scope. You can get an reading useful for comparitive purposes reading from an RC car tool so long as you're using full auto and you hold the trigger down till you've seen enough samples to consider them representative.

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stlll here , simply reading all the responses. One thing id ask, as like someone above said, been a while since went with an AEG, but what is SSG ? As it has been referenced several times to compare to a DSG (dual sector gear, that one i know) but without saying what SSG stands for 

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A single sector gear is the standard style of sector gear. It means that their is a single arc of piston pulling back teeth on the sector gear, where as the DSG means that arc is split into two arcs on opposite sides of the gear. Normally you would just say sector gear, but when DSGs are mixed into the conversation it is a term used to clarify which one you're talking about at any one point.

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