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Must have been a lemon.

 

The 2017 VFC M4s I fiddled with, had no such problems. They were solid performers.

 

The only thing to note was the 2017 VFC M4s would not function properly between old mags and new mags, by "old" I mean pre-2017.  2X 416 mags, one from the gun one bought separately (2016 stock).  One on he gun worked fine, other didn't.  Turns out the gas route had been improved on the newer gun, and was giving tons more power, kick and efficiency.

 

This is what the new gas route looks like (this is the G36 one, but is the same design)

 

VF9-MAG-G36G30-BK02-5L.jpg

 

 

However, the two mags would work identically fine on the old M4s I had, so I don't know what the issue was.

 

In regards to the G3.  If they put some effort into tuning the recoil system for efficiency in cold weathers, then the gun will work fine on hot weather with tons of recoil.  Pot metal internals isn't a bad thing as there will most likely be aftermarket parts (hammer, firing pin, spring guide) from MP5s which are compatible. 

 

The VFC G36 was a good example of how untuned the system was. out of the box I couldn't get 1.5 mags per gas charge, after tuning you could get 4 mags per gas charge, with less bolt wear.  

 

 

And in regards to expensive guns that don't work, I have too many examples to note...I would still buy them though.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n

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The UMP 9 did something really interesting in regards to bolt lock, instead of using hardened steel or just letting it degrade, at the corner on the bolt where it comes in contact with the catch, they just added a hex screw, so the bolt catch comes in contact with the hex screw head instead of the bolt itself, and if the screw does wear down, you can just buy a good quality metric hex screw to replace it (that is, if the hex slot isn't damaged and you can still withdraw it)... it's a really cheap and clever solution (if it works). 

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There are lots of options.

 

Primary option is to decrease the increase in kinetic energy at impact on the bolt catch, minimising wear

 

1) You could find out first if your recoil spring is too strong, if it is you can lighten it (cutting rungs).

 

2) You could decrease the distance where the bolt carrier accelerates onto the bolt catch.  That can be done by adding a buffer/spacer at the end of the receiver.

 

The other option is to strengthen the system.

 

3) You could harden the hex screw (find a MolyChrome / SS one), Heat it up to a certain temp for hardening (using laser thermometer and a blow torch), and dump it into used motor oil. Do it a few times. But that will wear some other parts.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n

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One thing that niggles me about this: why did VFC have to go copying WE by making thei G3 GBBR, when there are a LOT of designs waiting for the GBB treatment? A FAL / L1A1, Galil, heck a Sten would be awesome. 

But no, they have to go and copy whatever someone else is already doing. Bleh. :|

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Traditionally Asians (very loosely defined - Chinese, Japanese, Indian) don't understand strategy the way Europeans do. 

 

Their basic idea of strategy is to out-compete with each other's within the same industry within the same market audience/segment. 

 

This comes from traditional lack of innovation stemming from the polarised perspectives of their schooling and society, but also the fact that, with enough people/foot traffic the business can still survive without good strategy.

 

In airsoft, its really quite evident in the number of M1911 or the number of electric AR15s produced by each company.  For example, the silliness of WE to go into the AEG market, given their strength is in the GBB market, was a terrible strategic decision.  They produced mediocre Katana M4s as well as mediocre standard M4 AEGs.

 

The smarter companies learn to generate differentiation by either coming into the market first, or putting slightly different focus/value proposition on their products.  For example VFC differentiates themselves by producing technically/aesthetically accurate models vs WE produces lower costs functional skirmish pieces.  However, this is airsoft, so in the end we are targeting the same market segment,

 

In this case VFC tried to beat WE into the market given it wouldn't have taken any major re-tooling to make a G3 vs an MP5, and the fact that, VFC has less models to manufacture so R&D/product development would be faster.  WE on the other hand, produces a lot more products and a lot less energy can be made to dedicate to R&D/product development.  Case in point, it has taken 3-4 years to get the Thompson to market since it was displayed as a prototype, and it has been 5 years since James has said they were working on a Steyr AUG.   Both King Arms and GHK have bet WE to it.  However, King Arms main strength is in AEGs, so their Thompson hasn't made it to market (TBH it just needed a good engineer to tune their product and get their supply chain updated), while GHK's strength is in GBBs, hence GHK has a Steyr.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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Also bare in mind that WE shelved the G3 project 4 years ago and VFC have been working on this (with umarex) since mid 2017 with no expectation that WE would bring it's project back to life .

 

Also where one is none , i'm glad that both are now competing to bring us a GBB G3 we have been craving for a long time 

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Also bare in mind that WE shelved the G3 project 4 years ago and VFC have been working on this (with umarex) since mid 2017 with no expectation that WE would bring it's project back to life .

 

Also where one is none , i'm glad that both are now competing to bring us a GBB G3 we have been craving for a long time 

 

WE doesn't really 'shelf' things, they just tend to focus on one model releasing at a time. From my contact in Taiwan who works with WE, it's apparently very much run like this:

 

BOSS: I WANT SOME NEW DESIGNS! DESIGN THINGS THAT WILL MAKE US MONEY

 

WE R&D team: Ok, we'll get some stuff drawn up for you!

 

-Later-

 

BOSS: SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT

WE R&D team: So we have prototypes for a Desert Eagle, a G3, an FAL, an AUG and an MP5, plus we were thinking we could-

BOSS: I LIKE WHAT YOU GOT

BOSS: BUT WE'RE DOING A DOUBLE BARRELED MAKAROV

WE R&D team: So should we still do the other things we've been working on, or-

BOSS: I LIKE WHAT YOU GOT

BOSS: BUT WE'RE DOING A DOUBLE BARRELED MAKAROV

WE R&D team: Ok, so we're making a double barreled makarov but we're still going to work on the other prototypes at the same ti-

BOSS: I LIKE WHAT YOU GOT

BOSS: BUT WE'RE DOING A DOUBLE BARRELED MAKAROV

 

 

Slight exaggeration but yeah. At least, from what I've heard, it all does get made eventually, just not in the order you might expect.

Edited by DarkLite
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WE doesn't really 'shelf' things, they just tend to focus on one model releasing at a time. From my contact in Taiwan who works with WE, it's apparently very much run like this:

 

BOSS: I WANT SOME NEW DESIGNS! DESIGN THINGS THAT WILL MAKE US MONEY

 

WE R&D team: Ok, we'll get some stuff drawn up for you!

 

-Later-

 

BOSS: SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT

WE R&D team: So we have prototypes for a Desert Eagle, a G3, an FAL, an AUG and an MP5, plus we were thinking we could-

BOSS: I LIKE WHAT YOU GOT

BOSS: BUT WE'RE DOING A DOUBLE BARRELED MAKAROV

WE R&D team: So should we still do the other things we've been working on, or-

BOSS: I LIKE WHAT YOU GOT

BOSS: BUT WE'RE DOING A DOUBLE BARRELED MAKAROV

WE R&D team: Ok, so we're making a double barreled makarov but we're still going to work on the other prototypes at the same ti-

BOSS: I LIKE WHAT YOU GOT

BOSS: BUT WE'RE DOING A DOUBLE BARRELED MAKAROV

 

 

Slight exaggeration but yeah. At least, from what I've heard, it all does get made eventually, just not in the order you might expect.

I've no doubt this is sometimes the case but the G3 certainly got shelved for a while as We got scared of doing anything related to Hk for a short while 

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I've no doubt this is sometimes the case but the G3 certainly got shelved for a while as We got scared of doing anything related to Hk for a short while 

 

Which is why they never made an MP5 or MP7 or HK416 or HK416c. :rolleyes:

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I think most airsoft companies (like most any manufacturers around...) are way too scared of being the first to make something. They go "What if there's no market for it?", "What if it flops?", "What if (insert here)?" and really don't want to invest into new products. 

So everyone sees M4s, and AKs have an established market, let's go there.

I think VFC got in that bandwagon: WE makes a MP5, forums go wild with it, VFC makes a MP5 but with extra bling. WE starts making the G3, forums go wild...

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WE on the other hand doesn't mind testing waters with new ideas and actually releasing them. As much as I hate the double barreled theme, it is one of the reasons we're always waiting anxiously for new products by them. They're not afraid of doing kooky ideas that no one else will even touch.

 

We need more of that restrained crazy in this buisness.

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Traditionally Asians (very loosely defined - Chinese, Japanese, Indian) don't understand strategy the way Europeans do. 

 

Their basic idea of strategy is to out-compete with each other's within the same industry within the same market audience/segment. 

 

This comes from traditional lack of innovation stemming from the polarised perspectives of their schooling and society, but also the fact that, with enough people/foot traffic the business can still survive without good strategy.

 

In airsoft, its really quite evident in the number of M1911 or the number of electric AR15s produced by each company.  For example, the silliness of WE to go into the AEG market, given their strength is in the GBB market, was a terrible strategic decision.  They produced mediocre Katana M4s as well as mediocre standard M4 AEGs.

 

The smarter companies learn to generate differentiation by either coming into the market first, or putting slightly different focus/value proposition on their products.  For example VFC differentiates themselves by producing technically/aesthetically accurate models vs WE produces lower costs functional skirmish pieces.  However, this is airsoft, so in the end we are targeting the same market segment,

 

In this case VFC tried to beat WE into the market given it wouldn't have taken any major re-tooling to make a G3 vs an MP5, and the fact that, VFC has less models to manufacture so R&D/product development would be faster.  WE on the other hand, produces a lot more products and a lot less energy can be made to dedicate to R&D/product development.  Case in point, it has taken 3-4 years to get the Thompson to market since it was displayed as a prototype, and it has been 5 years since James has said they were working on a Steyr AUG.   Both King Arms and GHK have bet WE to it.  However, King Arms main strength is in AEGs, so their Thompson hasn't made it to market (TBH it just needed a good engineer to tune their product and get their supply chain updated), while GHK's strength is in GBBs, hence GHK has a Steyr.

 

Actually Vega at VFC is just a H&K Fan Boy...he will make anything H&K.  And some of the items I have seen in his office...yeah...the G3 was a logical choice for him.

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Airsoft started as extension of toys, given airguns are very restrictive in Japan, and Hong Kong and China.  It is only natural to develop these in those countries.  If we were to live in such a country I am sure people would find ways to make such guns.  Its about probability over time, and as people are used to differences in opinion, they will naturally find ways to innovate, until either laws limit innovation or social systems discourage innovation.

 

End2end product development (from  market research, to R&D, to manufacture, to promotion and distribution) is a very energy intensive process which takes effort and risk. 

 

For VFC, It is a lot easier if your tooling is already geared for the HK systems, and it is easier if you already have an agreement with umarex .  It is also harder for WE as they have more products in production, but also easier process for cybergun linked brands, it is still easier to push one product at a time.  Being a fanboy of H&K just means its easier to make decisions as to what to produce. 

 

But am still surprised that VFC hasnt jumped on the AEG bandwagon for the G3.  Been waiting for an HK11 for so long.

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Hmm I guess I'll have to keep waiting for a new modern gun(X95, Galil ACE, MPX, or some russian ones). Got a GHK AUG and probably buy their SIG too(tough I wish they would make a proper AUG A3). The only "older" guns Im intrested are the FNC and FAMAS. All in GBB form of course. :P

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Honestly, is it that bad that different brands are making similar guns? Some people will not touch a WE because they don't want to deal with QC issues. I'm personally not inclined to get a GHK because they keep stunting bolt travel. I guess some people are just plain masochistic so they get a VFC.

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Altough I wish they would have a longer travel bolt I usually don't mind if it performs well and GHKs are usually fine especially with VSR bucking mod. I don't mind WE QC much as long as it's fixable in a way as they are also solid performers and have a lot of unique models.

With VFCs however I haven't been lucky. I always seem to have trouble with hop-up consistency no matter what I do, even if I use the very same bucking+barrel combo as in my WE or GHK(this on 416, 417). Seems like a feeding issue. And then there are some "intresting" engineering designs like their UMP45 mags, the SCAR-H barrel fix, etc or their refusal to use normal O-rings for sealing. Those FNX mag sealing rubbers still me off.

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There are a few issues on the VFC hop system which can be seen.  The feeding issue and the hop consistency issue.

 

The feeding issue stems from the way the VSR hop rubber sits too far backward in the chamber (as the barrel is held too far back).  Trimming down the vsr hop rubber using a dremel from the breech end fixes that (I have the same issue on VSR hops on GHKs).

 

The hop consistency issue comes from the fact that VFC doesn't use a hop nub on a metal/plastic hop arm (usually the "nub" is casted onto the arm much like the SRC rifles).  That stiffness causes the hop to be less predictable.  A modification of the hop arm to take a hop nub greatly improves accuracy.  This applies to pretty much all VFC GBBs except the plastic hop units (they are a bit better as plastic has some elasticity).

 

As for the cr4ppy base plate seal design.  I have no answer for that except freezing the magazine, then tightening the screws and return gas to room temperature.  Or adding grey gasket sealant to improve the seal.  Keeping mags gassed at all times minimises chance  of rubber shrinkage.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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Which is why they never made an MP5 or MP7 or HK416 or HK416c. :rolleyes:

 

WE have not made MP5 but WE have made Apache GBB and all series include  A3 to SD 

 

WE have not made MP7 but WE have made SMG-8 GBB  

 

WE have not made HK416 but WE have made WE888  include  AEG and GBB  

 

WE have not made HK416C but WE have made WE888C  only  GBB  

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WE have not made MP5 but WE have made Apache GBB and all series include  A3 to SD 

 

WE have not made MP7 but WE have made SMG-8 GBB  

 

WE have not made HK416 but WE have made WE888  include  AEG and GBB  

 

WE have not made HK416C but WE have made WE888C  only  GBB  

 

ckv10jt.jpg

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Honestly, is it that bad that different brands are making similar guns? Some people will not touch a WE because they don't want to deal with QC issues. I'm personally not inclined to get a GHK because they keep stunting bolt travel. I guess some people are just plain masochistic so they get a VFC.

 

Yeah it is that bad.  Unless the product can affect a different target segments, then you are just eating into the same saturated market, which is not infinite.

 

An interesting example was Krytec.  Initially they were not even called Krytec, and their first products were some M4/Mk18 variants with whole heap of internal upgrades.  Good guns with pretty good performance.  But it wasn't enough to differentiate from the other firms that were also producing similar products, struggled for 3-4 years.   Then they did some market research and started to tailor their lines for the modern/PMC/IPSC/3-Gun style US rifles as complete packages rather than 3rd party parts.  In all purpose that worked quite well, now expanding their lines.  

 

Also why E&L M4 GBBs haven't caught on.  If everyone is going through GHK and Marui why bother with another brands?

 

As for plain masochistic to get VFC, I would take that as a complement.  VFCs make great ghost guns :)

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WE have not made MP5 but WE have made Apache GBB and all series include A3 to SD

 

WE have not made MP7 but WE have made SMG-8 GBB

 

WE have not made HK416 but WE have made WE888 include AEG and GBB

 

WE have not made HK416C but WE have made WE888C only GBB

 

I wonder what dumb name WE is going name the G3? Edited by Gunnman

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