SAS CRW kit

[FarEast]

my BS counter is way off the scale here!

 

From what i know and this is comming from a member of Sussex Armed Police who was also a member of the Royal Protection Squad assigned to HRH Prince Charlie, that all Police officers and CRW teams are taught to shoot to kill, period.

 

All this BS about shooting out arms and legs is nonsense, this isn't HollyWood and also this BS about shooting "Tango's" that are already down is nonsense too..... Fact after each shooting there is an investigation to see if the shooting was lawful.

 

As other have said this is just airsoft. None of us here have served in the SAS or other CRW teams, what we have read in books is heavly edited to continue the mystery of the SAS, its tactics and equipment.

 

Some good links here and I can honestly say that the CRW overalls that anson tactical make are excellent.

 

Lets cut the BS and get back on topic!

[rifleman]

All this BS about shooting out arms and legs is nonsense, this isn't HollyWood and also this BS about shooting "Tango's" that are already down is nonsense too..... Fact after each shooting there is an investigation to see if the shooting was lawful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When I said try shooting someone in the arm or leg, I was trying to point out that shooting to wound is nonsense and that in that type of situation it's kill or be killed. My bad if it didn't come across that way.

[FarEast]

It wasn't directed at you.

[PariahWolf]

As far as I can tell, NO ONE in this thread has said they aim for arms and legs. Or for that matter that they aim to wound.

[xRAZERx]

Anyone who says they shoot for the arms or legs is talking total ######. Even if they're the worlds best marksman then they'd probably miss in a HR or CQB situation, hence the reason you shoot for the largest body mass.

 

Armed Police shoot to stop not to kill....

[PariahWolf]

Anyone who says they shoot for the arms or legs is talking total ######. Even if they're the worlds best marksman then they'd probably miss in a HR or CQB situation, hence the reason you shoot for the largest body mass.

 

Armed Police shoot to stop not to kill....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think anyone said that, some people seemed to have interpreted me saying 'shoot to stop' as 'aims for arms and legs'.

 

Which I blatently didn't.

[Sunday8PM]

(...)

 

the only reason ct teams dress in black is because they all think it looks cool and menacing, often they don't even wear the same as the guy next to them, even ct teams.

 

(...)

That is NOT the only reason! They use gas during entries and wearing black makes it easier to see each other.

 

I'm just going to use the Embacy siege as an example of the shoot to kill policy and mentality of the reg.  At the end of the siege when they where leading the hostages out.  One of the hostages alerted the SAS that one of the hostage takers had disguised himself as a hostage. 

 

The SAS proceded to try and drag the guy back into the embacy and shoot him.

 

(...)

Not correct! One of the SAS guys saw a russian grenade sticking out of the hand of one of the hostages while going down the stairs inside the embassy during the extraction. He notified the guys downstairs, they dragged him out of the line and emptied a mp5 mag each in him. They had a reason! A lot of people were in danger.

Source: Video interview w/ John McAleese

 

EDIT: Not saying you're wrong about the shoot-to-kill policy though, but the example is wrong.

[Frangible]

^I've a feeling that was a separate incident. The guy with the grenade was shot and killed in the lobby area as they were getting the hostages out. I think the example PariahWolf mentioned is the anecdotal story that one terrorist managed to escape detection by pretending to be a hostage and made it into the holding area where he was subsequently identified. Depending on who you believe the SAS started to drag him back into the Embassy to finish him off (bear in mind they were under the 'nod' from on-high that no hostage-taker should survive) but that because he'd been kind to the female hostages (and they kicked up a ruckus) he was spared *or* that he was simply isolated and taken into police custody pretty sharpish...

 

Of course I could be wrong.

 

I'd be interested to see a documented account of the execution of the three IRA men. There have been a few forays across the border in Ireland which have made the news. AFAIK all bar one were simple navigation cock-ups. The other IIRC was to execute a robbery and was a scheme hatched by two rogue troopers.

 

It's also worth noting, given some of the talk here, that all soldiers are bound by both military and civil laws.

[Sunday8PM]

oh I didn't know about that one. There was 1 that survived, must have been that one then? unless they did drag him back in and shot him. or did it happend twice?

 

EDIT: I re-read your post.. they only tried to drag him back in? they didn't finish it?

[Frangible]

The surviving hostage-taker was called Fowzi Nejad, IIRC his time in prison is either nearly or is actually up... there was some political debate about what they were going to do with him once he was/is released because he might be granted asylum in the UK.

 

I've no idea what's happening with him as of this moment.

 

5 out of 6 of the terrorists were killed. There is some debate about the exact circumstances of what happened to Nejad. There are claims he was going to be dragged back in and shot, others that he was simply isolated so that he could be taken away by the police. Bear in mind he was identified outside the building with police and the press in close proximity.

 

I imagine only the trooper(s) who grabbed him could say for sure what was intended so, like many things, it'll remain a mystery.

[rifleman]

I'd be interested to see a documented account of the execution of the three IRA men. There have been a few forays across the border in Ireland which have made the news. AFAIK all bar one were simple navigation cock-ups. The other IIRC was to execute a robbery and was a scheme hatched by two rogue troopers.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd also be interested in the source of that story. As to the bank robbery, it was carried out by two rogue members of B squadron and led to the squadron being withdrawn from it's tour early. Both men later got 6 years.

 

The surviving hostage-taker was called Fowzi Nejad, IIRC his time in prison is either nearly or is actually up... there was some political debate about what they were going to do with him once he was/is released because he might be granted asylum in the UK.

 

I've no idea what's happening with him as of this moment.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The last information I can find about Nejad is dated 2005 and is a Times Online article speculating whether Charles Clarke was about to grant asylum and furnish him with a new ID. You can read the article here.

[PariahWolf]

^I've a feeling that was a separate incident. The guy with the grenade was shot and killed in the lobby area as they were getting the hostages out. I think the example PariahWolf mentioned is the anecdotal story that one terrorist managed to escape detection by pretending to be a hostage and made it into the holding area where he was subsequently identified. Depending on who you believe the SAS started to drag him back into the Embassy to finish him off (bear in mind they were under the 'nod' from on-high that no hostage-taker should survive) but that because he'd been kind to the female hostages (and they kicked up a ruckus) he was spared *or* that he was simply isolated and taken into police custody pretty sharpish...

 

Of course I could be wrong.

 

I'd be interested to see a documented account of the execution of the three IRA men. There have been a few forays across the border in Ireland which have made the news. AFAIK all bar one were simple navigation cock-ups. The other IIRC was to execute a robbery and was a scheme hatched by two rogue troopers.

 

It's also worth noting, given some of the talk here, that all soldiers are bound by both military and civil laws.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah Seperate incident.

 

That execution was done in Gibralter. They never crossed the border for that . It's in a book I have, all I can find out about it on the internet is a mention in Wikipedia.

[Frangible]

Ah, 'Death on the Rock.'

 

I think execution is a rather emotive term for it, tbh... Whilst it emerged the 3 were unarmed it was feared they were about to remotely detonate a car bomb so they weren't given a chance to do that.

 

There has been a lot of controversy about the incident - perhaps rightly so - however as the PIRA team were on an op and there was a perceived threat to life I don't think the outcome was that surprising or objectionable.

 

That is purely my personal opinion on the matter, there are many others of course.

[rifleman]

The Gibraltar killings took place during Operation Flavius, originally intended as an arrest operation to apprehend a 3-man ASU (Active Service Unit) of the IRA, who intelligence sources (MI5) believed were planning to bomb a changing of the guard ceremony.

 

According to intelligence received, the likelihood was that the ASU would use a radio detonated car bomb similar to one used several weeks earlier in Brussels. The ASU arrived in Gibraltar in a rented car and upon leaving the vehicle one of its members was seen to 'fiddle' with something between the seats. This, and the fact that the aerial attached to the vehicle was suspicious, led the police and SAS to believe that a remotely detonated bomb had been planted and that one or more of the ASU were carrying a detonator. It subsequently transpired that this particular visit to Gibraltar was a scouting mission for the real attack. One of the ASU was found to be carrying two sets of car keys, one for the vehicle used on the day of the shootings and one for a vehicle subsequently found in a garage in Malaga which contained a remotely detonated device comprising 64kg of semtex.

 

Full details of the the operation, witness statements and legal arguments concerning the shootings can be found here. IMO the SAS were operating in defense of life, against dedicated and fanatical people, two of whom were known to have been involved with the use of explosive devices. It is fairly certain that given the discovery of the second vehicle, an attack was planned and that the loss of life in terms of civilians and military personnel would have been substantial.

[BB_Magnet]

^I've a feeling that was a separate incident. The guy with the grenade was shot and killed in the lobby area as they were getting the hostages out. I think the example PariahWolf mentioned is the anecdotal story that one terrorist managed to escape detection by pretending to be a hostage and made it into the holding area where he was subsequently identified. Depending on who you believe the SAS started to drag him back into the Embassy to finish him off (bear in mind they were under the 'nod' from on-high that no hostage-taker should survive) but that because he'd been kind to the female hostages (and they kicked up a ruckus) he was spared *or* that he was simply isolated and taken into police custody pretty sharpish...

 

Of course I could be wrong.

 

 

They did indeed try to drag the sixth back in to finish him, but a policeman who had been a hostage inside grabbed hold of the lad and simply stated to the SAS that they'd have to shoot him first, they backed down.

 

Apparently the hostages all felt sorry for this guy cause he was a young lad and so they let him in amongst them so that the authorities would think he was another hostage and he would make it outside to be arrested.

 

Armed police are trained to shoot at the centre of the body to stop an individual. Easiest part to hit. There have been examples of suspects being shot as many as 8 or more times which is explained by multiple officers firing double taps, if a suspect hasn't dropped his weapon after being shot he will be shot again, basically until he is no longer a visible threat.

 

Back on topic, why black for urban operations? It stands out. Also is it true that they seldom where body armour?

[PariahWolf]

Black because it's menacing also as someone else pointed out. When a rooms filling with gas Black shapes stand out, meaning you can identify your team easier.

[BB_Magnet]

Makes sense as subtlety isn't the key but rather in your face shock tactics. I can't quite remember, is it fire retardant and chemical resistant coveralls they wear? and did they wear body armour when they did the embassy jobbie?

 

It's probably been covered but I can't find any definitive answer, where can I find an S10 that's safe to use as face protection? or ow can I mod one up? I keep hearing that the lenses are not up to standard. and ballistic lenses are nigh on impossible to get ahold of.

 

Cheers

[Torak]

There was someone - can't remember if it was here or on UKASC - who was looking into making polycarbonate flash lenses that would be BB-proof. Not sure what happened with that, though.

 

I do know, though, that some people in Sweden have modified their Skyddsmask 90 with the plastic from ice hockey visors, which apparently does the trick.

[1st Commando]

just to put a myth to rest the vest issued (at least at the end of 2005) is an Arctis Modular Vest which is not commercially available . If i can arrange hosting i shall take some pics of one and its various pouches etc.

Diamaco you shouldn't belive everything you read in a book mate

the MP5 is rarely used now since new improvements in ammunition (preventing over penetration) have allowed for the use of Diamaco 5.56mm carbines to be used on the Special Projects teams.

[Lance Jackass]

SAS no longer do the CRW role supposedly - it's 14 int apparently. No idea why i posted that, other than to be a pedantic anorak.

[zogzog60]

I might have this all wrong, but i thought that CRW was the counter revolutionary warfare wing, and that they dealt with mainly the black ops of the sas. This means that they often use the equpiment of forgein militarys in order to shift blame, and that you are all talking about the CT (counter terrorist) wing that wear the black overalls etc?

[1st Commando]

Lance Jackass you are quite right as of April this year it is handled by SRR formed from parts of Int14.

You certainly know things that are not common knowledge !

 

and yes we are talking about the CT teams which were under the CRW but are no longer

[morpcat]

Makes sense as subtlety isn't the key but rather in your face shock tactics. I can't quite remember, is it fire retardant and chemical resistant coveralls they wear? and did they wear body armour when they did the embassy jobbie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've read from several sources that they use both nomex coveralls (flame retardant) and an NBC suit underneath. I can't confirm exactly whether this was used for the embassy though. I understand that they did wear body armour at the embassy, but I don't think it's the same kevlar armour they would use these days.

[The Original SaXoN]

Just to clear up the 5.7 too P90 part .

 

The P90 was triald by many SF units and Police fire arms teams and some branches of the Military (RMP's for eg) but was not addopted for acouple of reasons. Mainly (I'm told) this was because if the user dropt it or banged it agains somthing, there was a possibility the the mag would dislodge, causing a jam or it not to feed. Or totaly coming off !

 

The RMP have now adopted the MP7 which, I would not be supprised if, is making it's way into the 22nd.

[xRAZERx]

SAS no longer do the CRW role supposedly - it's 14 int apparently. No idea why i posted that, other than to be a pedantic anorak.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah but they still train for it...

 

Lance Jackass you are quite right as of April this year it is handled by SRR formed from parts of Int14.

You certainly know things that are not common knowledge !

 

and yes we are talking about the CT teams which were under the CRW but are no longer

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fairly open source information there considering it was in the Sun

 

Just to clear up the 5.7 too P90 part .

 

The P90 was triald by many SF units and Police fire arms teams and some branches of the Military (RMP's for eg) but was not addopted for acouple of reasons. Mainly (I'm told) this was because if the user dropt it or banged it agains somthing, there was a possibility the the mag would dislodge, causing a jam or it not to feed. Or totaly coming off !

 

The RMP have now adopted the MP7 which, I would not be supprised if, is making it's way into the 22nd.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

RMP don't use the MP7 the MOD Police do (please don't confuse the two it's an insult to some fine public servants who do vastly hard jobs with little reward)

 

P90's are very droppable without the mag coming off. A weapons system used by many including the USSS....