Hissing_Sid Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Was just dorking around with a couple of mates, one of whom has just bought a Marui DE hardkick. I just wanted to share a few thoughts about recoil... Between us we had the following guns (if I can remember them all) and they were all fired using green gas... KWA G19 (metal slide) KWA G18 (metal & plastic slide versions) KSC G17 (metal & plastic slide versions) KSC CZ75 Marui P226 Marui HiCapa. Marui Desert Eagle Hardkick Marui HK Mk23 WA M9 WA SVI 6" HFC M190 (metal & plastic versions) KJW USP Tactical KJW M9 Ok, I'm not gonna bother trying to rank them all but (and I know I'm gonna get flack for this) my KWA G19 has MUCH sharper and stronger recoil than any of them. Even the DE. The guy who owns the DE was keen to show it off and, I swear, after he shot my KWA G19 after shooting his DE, he just looked at my KWA G19 and said "fookin ell!" I don't want to get into trying to describe the various recoils. I suspect that if you used some kind of accelerometer to measure the force of recoil on all the guns you might find that some guns are almost the same but, in use, all 3 of us agreed that the G19 had the most "kick". I dunno. Maybe it's because it's a short, but fairly heavy, slide in a small gun. Maybe there's something wrong with mine. I've got 2 spare mags, though, and it shoots just as hard with all 3 mags (300 fps today with 0.2s). I remember saying, a while back, that the G19 kicks almost as hard as a real firearm and everybody told me I was exaggerating but now, having carried out this semi-scientific test, I gotta say that my G19 kicks harder than any GBB I've seen. Oh, and the Mk23 came last. Link to post Share on other sites
Diemaco Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Would ya believe it eh Link to post Share on other sites
demon.b Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 More than a DE? Must be quite a kick to out-do 'Teh Bling'! Must get one! Shiney Thing Syndrome strikes again! Link to post Share on other sites
snowman Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Interesting, and I don't want to give you flak, but your findings reinforce the subjectiveness of 'kick'. The only serious examination of this I've seen is Airsoft Innovations work for the flow restrictor. Some people see kick as the amount a gun moves, others as the speed at which the slide cycles. I suspect you COULD do a calculation based on recoil speed (Fps is going to be flawed, because the same amount of gas isn't used to cycle the slide on all guns), recoil spring rate and slide weight, but it would require some specialist equipment. Did you rank all those guns 1-Mk23, btw? I don't recall my G19 being a particularly hard kicker, though, but the DE certainly lives up to its name and it's no great surprise that a NBB comes last Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites
Hissing_Sid Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Personally, by kick, I simply mean how much my hand wants to move after the shot is fired rather than the cycling speed. It seems like it'd be easy to test kick but actually implimenting it would be harder. So hard that I can't actually think of a sensible way to do it right now. I don't think it'd be possible to calculate it cos there are too many factors. Airsoft guns are based on real guns and real firearm manufacturers spend a fortune designing guns in ways to reduce kick rather than enhance it. I would imagine that a slide on a DE would, subjectively, give much more "kick" than a slide of the same weight fitted to a gun such as a CZ75 because the C of G would be way higher up on the DE, thus giving a greater feeling of "kick". Link to post Share on other sites
-Ham- Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 The TM DE has good kick but i just dont like the look of it. Thats the main reason i have not bought it. Have you guys seen alien vs predator? and did you see those guys with the Chrome Desert eagles? They looked so slim and sexy... and with the green laser too. I just wish someone would make a DE like that, then i would buy it in an instant. -ham- Link to post Share on other sites
snowman Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Airsoft guns are based on real guns and real firearm manufacturers spend a fortune designing guns in ways to reduce kick rather than enhance it. Yes - Ironic, eh? Cheers Link to post Share on other sites
screamin_weasel Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 well as much as i still think the DE is teh bestest, i know what you mean Sid. i fired a KJW G23, with metal slide, which essentially identical to teh G19, other than the paint finish. the kick of that also felt very hard, especially for such a small gun. but i think its something to do with the size. like you said, metal slide on a small gun, that will run green, would feel quicker and sharper than the massive, heavy, plastic slide of the DE. but in all honesty, the DE and the G23 are the two GBB's wit most kick that i have fired. Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 I fired a deagle at AG expecting it to be an armbreaker etc with all the myth that surrounds it... sure it had a nice crisp action but it really didnt do much for me. My glock 19 (plastic slide) has a nice crisp action to it that flicks your hand a little bit- most noticeable when prone firing one handed. But tis really nothing compared to realsteel. I think the auto weapons make you feel recoil the most. G18Cs and Mac 11s had my hands arm shaking more than any pistol ive fired. Sid- thats a stock G19 right, no uprgade spring? Link to post Share on other sites
rizzo Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Well... I still maintain that the DE has the hardest kick of any pistol i've handled, and I've handled quite a few GBB pistols, all on green. Link to post Share on other sites
Hissing_Sid Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 One final thought, just to prove I'm not totally biased toward my own stuff... I reckon the metal HFC M190 has hardly any recoil at all. The gun is very well built and, on CO2, it is wickedly sharp but when fired with green gas it cycles smoothly and quickly but you realise that you barely felt anything. Maybe it's cos the frame and mag are so heavy. I dunno, but you just kinda watch this big heavy gun clattering and clanking as it fires and you think "Hey, I can't actually feel much at all." The KJW M9 doesn't fire any faster but I reckon the recoil was a bit harder thean the M190. The WA M9 was somewhere in between. The kick is harder than the M190 for sure but I'm not really sure by how much, or how fast it cycles. I think this is probably because the action is so smooth. It's just "BANG! Shhclick...BANG! Shhclick...BANG! Shhclick..." and you don't get as much of a sense of stuff-happening as with the other 2 guns. Link to post Share on other sites
blitz Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 the only 2 guns i own are the kwa g19 and the TM desert eagle hardkick i can say now the DE kicks alot harder i mean kick as by how much you feel it on your arm, and shakes your aim off my cousins also think so aswell, so something might of been wrong with your DE Link to post Share on other sites
Catchv22 Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 I also believe this is quite subjective. The pistols I most enjoyed firing because of the recoil were the KSC USPc, KJW Glock 23 and WA M1911, with the M1911 having the crispest blowback. The Skorpion is fun too because of the full auto. TM/KJW M9s and the KJW USP however failed to please me. The Tanaka Luger doesn't have much kick, but it's so great to see the toggle fly up every shot, that I don't care that I have no idea where the bbs are going at all. The worst gun I have to say is the KSC/KWA Glock 18C because after a few weak bursts the gas just shoots out the top. Link to post Share on other sites
Shao14 Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 I found the kicks on my guns are not all that consistent. Of course this has something to do with the surrounding temp I'm shooting in, and the state of my arm muscle at various shooting times, and some guns seems to kick harder when the mag is filled to a certain level (may not be when it's a fully filled, but only 70% filled). But I don't know if this is just me, but sometimes, I'd feel one gun shoots harder, and other times I'd feel another one shoots slightly harder. In the end, the max kick of each of the guns I have were all pretty much the same, it may just be one is more consistent than another in all conditions. So what GBBs have I played, you ask? KSC G17 with metal upgrade KSC USP Compact plastic stock KJW FMV 1911A1 KJW FMV M9 Maruzen P99 TM DE HK TM P226 Link to post Share on other sites
Jules Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 I'd be interested to see how the KWA M11 compares to the G19. On semi it's fairly hard kicking, even with the stock extended, and on auto it WILL spoil your sights and make BBs spread. Link to post Share on other sites
Buttons Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Hmmm... My G19 doesn't seem to have much kick at all, especially compared to my Prokillers... Link to post Share on other sites
Diemaco Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 How did the TM P226 fare upbecause I shot that and a guys mini WA Beretta and they were about the same Link to post Share on other sites
Hissing_Sid Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 How did the TM P226 fare upbecause I shot that and a guys mini WA Beretta and they were about the same <{POST_SNAPBACK}> TBH, the majority of them were all much the same. I thought the 226 was a lot like the metal-slide Glocks and the HiCapa, as well as the CZ75. We weren't really testing blowback, just dorking about. I only considered the recoil thing afterwards. The real stand-outs were that the G19 and DE were very strong and the HFC M190 was pretty weak. Nothing beyond that to report really. Link to post Share on other sites
Pegasus 1 Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Hmmm... My G19 doesn't seem to have much kick at all, especially compared to my Prokillers... Couldn't agree with that more. Personally, I dislike using the term 'kick' or 'recoil' in any sense of the word when discussing airsoft pistols because quite simply, compared to the real steel, the small vibrations we feel are nothing. However, for the purposes of this thread, I do understand what you are trying to say (basically how far the muzzle angle rotates whilst firing), and I'm sure you already knew that it's nothing compared to real steel. However, to return to my original point, my Prokiller P14.45 Combat has the largest 'kick' and quickest slide return that I have yet seen from any airsoft pistol, though the new WA SCW Version 2 kits produce some of the cleanest cycling pistols I have ever fired, and are simply wonderful to shoot. This is taken from owning or firing (for sustained periods, i.e. a weekend long skirmish) the followed: TM M92F TM Tactical Master TM Glock 26 TM SOCOM (obviously not a lot felt here...) TM Desert Eagle TM Samurai Edge Standard Model WA Beretta M92F Perfect Version WA Prokiller P14.45 Combat WA Smith & Wesson SW1911 (SCW Ver. 2) WA SV 5in Infinity WA SV 4.3in Infinity WA Infinity Tactical Carry (has a surprisingly snappy slide action, but low power...) KSC Glock 17 KSC Glock 18C KSC Glock 18C (metal slide, metal outer barrel, upgraded recoil and hammer springs) KSC Glock 19 KSC M93R Auto 9 (probably the 'weakest' in my opinion, it hardly moved the frame at all) KWA Glock 19 (metal slide, metal outer barrel, upgraded recoild and hammer springs) A couple of others, but their names just aren't coming to me at the moment... Link to post Share on other sites
R22Master Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I don't want to list all of the GBBs I have used because I have used FAR too many to remember. It's probably best to say that I HAVEN'T used the KJW Glocks, KWA .45 gov, Tanio Koba VP70, Hudson Jericho, HFC Dark Hawk, HFC M190 (have one on its way to me now) and the KWC Mini-Uzi (also have one on its way to me now). I think I've used pretty much everything else at some point. I have also used about 20 different KWA G19s and about 8 different TM Desert Eagle Hardkicks, and on average the TM DE kick is FAR greater than the KWA G19. The only thing I can think is that your G19 is kicking far harder than it should be. Normally I would guess that you used the G19 with the 50 round mags on Green Gas, and the DE HardKick on 134a gas, but from what you said, it doesn't sound like that is the case. As you say, recoil is subjective, but this is TOTALLY different to everything my experience has illustrated. All I can really say is "I WANT YOUR G19" Any thoughts as to why your G19 was so impressive in the recoil department? Link to post Share on other sites
Shao14 Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I'd say do the comparison again at another day. I like my TM P226 the best (not just the kick, but also a combination of all things), but unfortunately and unbelievably, it doesn't fit in the holster in my cross draw vest. Link to post Share on other sites
Hissing_Sid Posted July 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 As you say, recoil is subjective, but this is TOTALLY different to everything my experience has illustrated. All I can really say is "I WANT YOUR G19" Any thoughts as to why your G19 was so impressive in the recoil department? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> S'funny but, as you've probably seen, I often suggest people NEED to get a KWA G19 to compare other guns to. I dunno. Maybe mine is an exceptional example. Personally, I found the DE to kick pretty well, better than everything else we were playing with today, but it's just not as sharp or crisp as my G19. I've chrono'd the G19 and it's only doing 300fps on green, using 3 different mags, so it's not that I've got a super powered mag valve or anything else about the gun is upping the power. The blowback is enough to flick your hand upward like a real firearm. Not so much due to the power but just because it's so sharp and it's kinda happened while you're still concentrating on your aim. I think that's where the DE falls behind IMO. Maybe the slide takes that split-second longer to start moving so you are ready for the recoil. The guy who bought the DE is a fan of them and has shot them before. I'm sure he would have said if he thought his was down on power. Like I say though, he spent half an hour shooting the DE then tried my G19, fired one shot and just said "'kin 'ell!" Anyway, from this thread it looks like the WA Prokillers are gonna be demons for recoil if they're stronger than the G19. Or, when people are talking about the recoil of the prokillers, are they talking about the cumulative recoil when fired in auto? On that note, I personally would rate the blowback of the G18 as "average" on semi but on full-auto it's not really a big deal. The noise is full but it's dead easy to maintain point of aim. Link to post Share on other sites
R22Master Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 The G19 actually flips your hand upward??? Wow, that is something AMAZING then. Not even the DE does that unless you rest the frame on something rock-solid when firing (the resulting shock bounces the whole gun upwards). I would say that your G19 does indeed sound like an exceptional example. I do agree that the G19 is a great base for comparing the recoil of other guns. I've used the WA Prokillers and the recoil is nothing special. I would roughly approximate it to the recoil of a KWA G19 (probably not yours though ) or a KWA USP Compact pistol. Link to post Share on other sites
Buttons Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I think the difference is that the Prokillers on gas have more mass moving with the slide, so though the G19 may be cycling very fast, the Prokiller's slide (or any Infinity for that matter) is just carrying alot more alot quicker (ie more energy). Link to post Share on other sites
bronney Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Try the G19 with a WA SCW2 heavy weight slide (same weight as metal slide). Line up your arm totally straight and judge by how much you felt on your shoulder. I have both. The G19's nothing, I can double tap easy. The scw2 is impossible for me yet hehe. Link to post Share on other sites
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