staticzero Posted August 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Who's ready a look at the internals? Well here we go: Here's everything. The gearbox came apart easily. The hardest thing was getting the metal part that slides across the top off. It comes apart about the same as any v3 box, so I'm not going to go into it at this time. Here's a close up of the box. The cylinder is in fact vented, it was just positioned with the vent down for some reason. I'll probably reposition it to the side, though I don't know if there's much practical difference. The piston and piston head look good and tough. The nozzle looks good as well. The cylinder head is the poorest looking part, but it fits well enough. The compression is good despite the nozzle being a bit looser on the cylinder head than I'd like. Wether the nozzle is the same as any other AEG nozzle shall have to remain TBD for now. The spring guide is plastic and doesn't have a bering, though is does have a thick spacer that can move freely. It seems strong enough. Here's a close-up of the cylinder head. Close-up of the gears. Should have switched to manual focus for this one. The gears appear to be well made, but I'm no expert there. They look meaner then stock TM gears, but not as mean as my Systema super ultra maxi omega quintuple helical torque-up gears in my SR25 (sic. I forget which they actually are). They have a decent amount of grease on them. In order to determine the cause of the seizures that were occurring on full auto, I checked the shimming properly. It turns out the shimming seems fine on the spur and bevel gears, but the sector gear was very loose. I checked the usual spots for wear, and sure enough there were light marks on the semi-auto cutoff cam. This one shows the wear on the cam. When I get home and find my shims, I'm going to re-shim the sector gear and possibly sand the cam a bit. After that, I'll reassemble and retest. Link to post Share on other sites
Rob15 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 dont worry about what i just said, just found someone else's already, truely huge for a smg <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Indeed it is teh UMP is getting even more tempting now rob WE have to stop going off on tangents like this... just look at my sig <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nice sig btw how much is postage ??? Link to post Share on other sites
Trigger Happy10 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Indeed it is teh UMP is getting even more tempting now Nice sig btw how much is postage ??? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks . +1 would be nice Hey Static could you maby outline the parts in red that were worn down? I dont have a very good eye for things that aer worn down? If you do expect another +1 from me Link to post Share on other sites
Rob15 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Thanks . +1 would be nice Hey Static could you maby outline the parts in red that were worn down? I dont have a very good eye for things that aer worn down? If you do expect another +1 from me <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yeh, i would also Appreciate that i can't give rep points, my system is broken Link to post Share on other sites
staticzero Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Ask and ye shall receive. It's suspiciously minor wear, circled in red: I re-shimmed it as I said I would, it made things much smoother. However, the gears still lock up. Upon more careful examination, it seems like the internals as they are demand too much current from my little battery, fully charged or otherwise. The seizure always occurs when the spring is maximally compressed, that is right before it would fire. I can cause the gearbox to seize on semi by pulling the trigger quick enough so as to compress the spring without actually firing. If I try to fire again, it's stuck. If I hook up to my 9.6v/2400mAh pack I can force it to turn over. This wasn't the case before so I feel fixing the shimming on the sector gear did accomplish something. So: One, some, or all of these things are probably true... 1. The motor is too weak - Could be, maybe I got a bum motor. 2. The wring's resistance is too high - It's not the thickest stuff around (20g), but it look decent. 3. The battery's discharge rate is too low - It's an 8.4v 600mAh pack built with the same Sanyo Cadnica Extra KR-600AE cells a couple of my other pacs are made from. Packs which power my other guns fine, even the one's upgraded with springs too hot for thine eyes to read about here. However, the battery in the manual is a 9.6v/1000mAh pack. Oh a little side note, I used some regular AA cells to proof out a pack design composed of eight KAN1300 cells (AA, NiMH, 1.2v, 1300mAh, iR 6-10 mOhm) in 2x4 formation. Should fit no problem. The G&G pack appears to be this configuration as well, though I don't know what kind of AA cells they're using. Just need to buy the stuff and build it. Back to business... 4. There is too much friction in the gearbox - Possible. Certainly not unheard of. Perhaps I'll re-check all the shimming (yet again) and re-grease everything. *Goes off to investigate further* Oh yeah, PS, it was still double-feeding today. Much less so than originally, but it still was nonetheless. I decided I'd swap in a Guarder bucking I had laying around (the clear one, not the black one), we'll see how it goes. Link to post Share on other sites
jjj Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 well good luck. hope it works Link to post Share on other sites
staticzero Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Comparison pics. Note they're taken at a slight angle, so the perspective isn't totally fair to the gun on top. Top: TM P90 TR, Bottom: G&G UMG op: Hybrid G36K (Note: Slightly shorter G36C Stock fitted), Bottom: G&G UMG Top: G&P SR25, Bottom: G&G UMG Top: M15A4 SPC, Bottom: G&G UMG Top: KWA M11A1, Bottom: G&G UMG Left: Hybrid G36K, Center: G&G UMG, Right: TM P90 TR Link to post Share on other sites
LeMongelo Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 First, staticzero, great thread. With two UMP's coming out almost simultaneously, I hope people read each page of this thread to decide (hopefully, we'll see less of "Which UMP is better?" type posts!). Second, with all due respect, I had purchased the STAR Airsoft UMP and I must say it is working fine (for now...tomorrow it may totally ###### out on me). If anyone is interested, I can take detailed pictures of the STAR Airsoft internals and external appearance, test out the fps, etc (maybe over the weekend). Again, to reiterate staticzero's point, both he and I may just happened to get what we got and is not an accurate representation of the quality of both models (Joe in Canada might get a perfect UMG while Jane in UK gets a POS STAR UMP). Quick note on the external appearance (as many seem to base their choice on appearance)...having seen the G&G version (on this thread), there are parts where G&G looks better than the STAR (very minor points like the position of the pin holes, etc). I hope to see an H&K UMP soon (isn't the 2nd Ammendment wonderful?), so I guess only after that I can that can I really conclude if the STAR does really looks more like the real steel counterpart. For those into trades, I can say for sure that the trades on the STAR is NOT correct (H&K is spelled "Heokler & Kach GmbH" as well as "Starairsoft, VA"). Also, it looks like both STAR and G&G could not get the magazine right...the only marking is ".45 Auto" which I know for a fact is not correct. Finally, based on staticzero's pics, it looks like STAR and G&G mags can't be interchanged. Hope this helps Link to post Share on other sites
staticzero Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Great info, definitely take pics. A head-to-head comparison is good for everybody, virtual though it may be. "Knowledge for knowledge sake" after all! I went with the G&G for a few reasons. For one, I got to check out the prototype in person. I was and continue to be very impressed with the feel and build quality of the body. I was also impressed with the functional bolt catch, I thought it was great that they went to the trouble to design and implement it. And speaking of design prowess, G&G really put thought into the packaging. The box, the manual, all really nicely done. I know the more important thing is that the thing in the box work, but I respect a company who puts a little effort into the presentation of the thing. It makes the purchase that much more satisfying. It also helped that I could buy it locally for a fair price. I not only wanted to have the support of a local shop should something go wrong (first run hardware, always with the bugs), but also I wanted to support them, and in some small way my local airsoft community. I like that the Star version has the fake bullets and the semi-realistic trades. Nice features to have. So yes, do show us what the Star UMP has to offer, though perhaps in a new thread so as to keep conversation on point. Link to post Share on other sites
elrey Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 A fantastic analysis of this gun, superb pictures, thorough comparisons, etc. Well done. Keep us updated on the gearbox issue. PS. I love your Hybrid G36K, absolutely beautiful! Link to post Share on other sites
unimatrix001 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 H&K has a talent for doing that. They still look cool though <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Says the man with a FA-Mas in his Avater... Link to post Share on other sites
NamantH Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 oh a little side note, I used some regular AA cells to proof out a pack design composed of eight KAN1300 cells (AA, NiMH, 1.2v, 1300mAh, iR 6-10 mOhm) in 2x4 formation. Should fit no problem. The G&G pack appears to be this configuration as well, though I don't know what kind of AA cells they're using. Just need to buy the stuff and build it. Back to business... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 2 things about this. 1. Can you post up your specs... or at least tell us what the configuration is? I am getting this gun monday, and while I just orderd 2 8.4 sticks, I can sell those off and get 9.6 bats done jsut as easy. 2. Check out cheapbatterypacks.com. They have been the cheapest price I have seen for cells and packs. they carry evething you would need to build, and they have great prices and turnaround for custom packs. I have bought my last 7 batteries from them and they were great. Link to post Share on other sites
Trigger Happy10 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Ask and ye shall receive. It's suspiciously minor wear, circled in red: I re-shimmed it as I said I would, it made things much smoother. However, the gears still lock up. Upon more careful examination, it seems like the internals as they are demand too much current from my little battery, fully charged or otherwise. The seizure always occurs when the spring is maximally compressed, that is right before it would fire. I can cause the gearbox to seize on semi by pulling the trigger quick enough so as to compress the spring without actually firing. If I try to fire again, it's stuck. If I hook up to my 9.6v/2400mAh pack I can force it to turn over. This wasn't the case before so I feel fixing the shimming on the sector gear did accomplish something. So: One, some, or all of these things are probably true... 1. The motor is too weak - Could be, maybe I got a bum motor. 2. The wring's resistance is too high - It's not the thickest stuff around (20g), but it look decent. 3. The battery's discharge rate is too low - It's an 8.4v 600mAh pack built with the same Sanyo Cadnica Extra KR-600AE cells a couple of my other pacs are made from. Packs which power my other guns fine, even the one's upgraded with springs too hot for thine eyes to read about here. However, the battery in the manual is a 9.6v/1000mAh pack. Oh a little side note, I used some regular AA cells to proof out a pack design composed of eight KAN1300 cells (AA, NiMH, 1.2v, 1300mAh, iR 6-10 mOhm) in 2x4 formation. Should fit no problem. The G&G pack appears to be this configuration as well, though I don't know what kind of AA cells they're using. Just need to buy the stuff and build it. Back to business... 4. There is too much friction in the gearbox - Possible. Certainly not unheard of. Perhaps I'll re-check all the shimming (yet again) and re-grease everything. *Goes off to investigate further* Oh yeah, PS, it was still double-feeding today. Much less so than originally, but it still was nonetheless. I decided I'd swap in a Guarder bucking I had laying around (the clear one, not the black one), we'll see how it goes. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well thanks. Thats where i thought the wear was, but I wasnt sure. +1 to you. Please keep us updated on the process of repairing. Says the man with a FA-Mas in his Avater... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Just rember "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" Link to post Share on other sites
WlfSamurai Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 I know people here think its ugly, but I have always loved the way it looks. Then again, I like most H&K designs. staticzero, thanks for posting it. Its purty. Good luck with it and keep us updated. Link to post Share on other sites
NamantH Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Personally I love the look of the ump. think its a nasty looking gun. I hate the look of the famas though. as said above... it is your own opinion that goes the furthest. I know quite a few people that hate the look of the aug. personally I think it is one of the best looking guns on the market. but thats me Link to post Share on other sites
Trigger Happy10 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 if you go:offtopic: than this thread will get so lets get back on topic. This is not a wat am sexiest gun thread. But now i really want a umg. *waits paitently for airsoft atlanta to get them* Link to post Share on other sites
staticzero Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 A fantastic analysis of this gun, superb pictures, thorough comparisons, etc. Well done. Keep us updated on the gearbox issue. PS. I love your Hybrid G36K, absolutely beautiful! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks! I put a lot of work into it, it's nice that it's appreciated. 2 things about this. 1. Can you post up your specs... or at least tell us what the configuration is? I am getting this gun monday, and while I just orderd 2 8.4 sticks, I can sell those off and get 9.6 bats done jsut as easy. 2. Check out cheapbatterypacks.com. They have been the cheapest price I have seen for cells and packs. they carry evething you would need to build, and they have great prices and turnaround for custom packs. I have bought my last 7 batteries from them and they were great. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. Way ahead of you. I actually took pictures last night, but didn't upload them until now. Like I said, the pack is eight KAN1300 cells (AA, NiMH, 1.2v, 1300mAh, iR 6-10 mOhm) in 2x4 formation. That's two rows of four cells, same as any normal 9.6v pack, just made with AA sized cells. I discovered KAN actually has some 1800mAh AA cells, but I couldn't find anyone who had them, nor could I find their internal resistance. Maybe next time. 2. I already ordered it from batterystation.com last night, though I'll keep them in mind for next time. Thanks for the suggestion though! Edit: I just ordered a pack from CBP. They had some cells that looked promising. They're 1650mAh NiMH cells capable of a 15-20 amp draw. Not bad. They claim they outperform the KAN1300 cells. I had them build them as a double stick pack using 16AWG and a female Deans ultra connector (I use Deans connectors in all my AEGs, why stop now). Price for the pack was $24 + shipping. I may cancel the other order but I'm not sure yet. Might be interesting to compare them. On to the pics. Here we see the cell configuration. I just used some regular household AA cells to proof it out. The wires will come off the end just like a normal pack. Below it is the stick battery I'm currently using (8.4v 600mAh, based on Sanyo KR-600AE 2/3 A cells). Here it is in the gun. As you can see it goes in at an angle, which leaves plenty of room for wiring. Here it is viewed through the bottom of the upper receiver. The gun is clearly designed with this pack configuration in mind. There's a kind of a shelf in there for it to sit on, and the battery can't interfere with the bolt movement the way the stick battery can. Also, let me just take a moment to thank everyone for their support! I want to figure out everything there is to know about this gun, and your questions and comments have all been very helpful (well almost all... I still say its cool looking). This has been the most fun I've gotten from a gun that doesn't even work right yet, and it's all thanks to your encouragement. Link to post Share on other sites
Baphomet Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Great review! Keep up the good work! I myself am a proud owner of a G&G GR16 (#0000333) and I can honestly say it broke my hart on a number of occasions due to gearbox manufacturing issues. If there was a review like this available at the time it might of made sorting the problems easier and quicker. Link to post Share on other sites
Trigger Happy10 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Thanks! I put a lot of work into it, it's nice that it's appreciated. 1. Way ahead of you. I actually took pictures last night, but didn't upload them until now. Like I said, the pack is eight KAN1300 cells (AA, NiMH, 1.2v, 1300mAh, iR 6-10 mOhm) in 2x4 formation. That's two rows of four cells, same as any normal 9.6v pack, just made with AA sized cells. I discovered KAN actually has some 1800mAh AA cells, but I couldn't find anyone who had them, nor could I find their internal resistance. Maybe next time. 2. I already ordered it from batterystation.com last night, though I'll keep them in mind for next time. Thanks for the suggestion though! On to the pics. Here we see the cell configuration. I just used some regular household AA cells to proof it out. The wires will come off the end just like a normal pack. Below it is the stick battery I'm currently using (8.4v 600mAh, based on Sanyo KR-600AE 2/3 A cells). Here it is in the gun. As you can see it goes in at an angle, which leaves plenty of room for wiring. Here it is viewed through the bottom of the upper receiver. The gun is clearly designed with this pack configuration in mind. There's a kind of a shelf in there for it to sit on, and the battery can't interfere with the bolt movement the way the stick battery can. Also, let me just take a moment to thank everyone for their support! I want to figure out everything there is to know about this gun, and your questions and comments have all been very helpful (well almost all... I still say its cool looking). This has been the most fun I've gotten from a gun that doesn't even work right yet, and it's all thanks to your encouragement. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> sounds good. i cant wait to get money for one Link to post Share on other sites
WlfSamurai Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 That thing is really tempting me. Thanks a lot for confusing my puchasing descision! Link to post Share on other sites
staticzero Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Hehe, my pleasure. Link to post Share on other sites
NamantH Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Thanks! I put a lot of work into it, it's nice that it's appreciated. 2. I already ordered it from batterystation.com last night, though I'll keep them in mind for next time. Thanks for the suggestion though! Edit: I just ordered a pack from CBP. They had some cells that looked promising. They're 1650mAh NiMH cells capable of a 15-20 amp draw. Not bad. They claim they outperform the KAN1300 cells. I had them build them as a double stick pack using 16AWG and a female Deans ultra connector (I use Deans connectors in all my AEGs, why stop now). Price for the pack was $24 + shipping. I may cancel the other order but I'm not sure yet. Might be interesting to compare them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have orderd thier CBP brand cells for all the packs I have currently. I cant do a proper comparison because the KAN 2/3A cells I have were in a 9v pack and the ones I ordered from them were in a 12V pack. But I can say that I have had no problems with any of the guns I have ran with this packs. They last long, they are well built... good over all. I kinda wish I would have held off on buying the 8.4 sticks now. I know I can sell them if needed, or reuse the cells, but it would have been nice to have a 9.6 in there. As soon as I receive my gun on monday I will do some comparisons with this thread. I will check to see if i have any of the same issues you had so we can see if the same problems pop up across guns. Link to post Share on other sites
staticzero Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Cool, that's good to hear. I think I'm going to cancel the other order. I haven't even gotten a confirmation email or anything from batterystation.com yet, and it doesn't make sense to spend the same money on a second, slightly inferior pack. Either way I'll have something better than this 8.4v stick battery (which I'm planning on returning today). Definitely keep us posted on how your gun turns out! Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Static- I'd be willing to bet you'll need to replace the motor. On the pre-production sample I got & tested the gun kept locking up as you described. I replaced the motor with a TM motor & it ran great. Not only did it no longer lock up but the rate of fire increased as well. It has been my experience (so far) that G&G's motors are a little weak. I'm a bit surprised the production model has nylon bushings. The pre-production one has metal bushings. I do like that G&G added the wire retainer tabs to the stopper rail. I'm sure it makes re-assembling the gun easier. I can't wait for mine. It was supposed to ship today, but have to wait 'till the end of September to get it because it's coming on the water. Link to post Share on other sites
staticzero Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 What you say about the motor is consistent with information I've read elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct. With how smooth the gear motion was after fixing the shimming on the sector gear, I was surprised to find it still locked up. I'm going to check it at AEX on their power block tonight. I'm curious to see how much current it's drawing. If its drawing normal amounts of power but still locking up, I'll see about replacing the motor (Though I'll hold off swapping it until after I try the new battery, for the sake of knowing wether it could be made to work in stock form). The the wire retainer is indeed handy. I've stripped the gun numerous times since monday, I'm quite glad it's well designed and easy to do. Link to post Share on other sites
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