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Butter18c

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The ability of deer to clear it will depend on the height of the fence. And the cost is irrelevant, or shall we admit that really, safety has nothing to do with it, people just wanna kill stuff for fun?

 

:zorro:

 

I find that very offensive, and really unpractical.

 

 

Living in the UK, you have a... destorted view of road systems.

 

Mainly, because the road systems in Ohio, would probably be much longer - per KM - and much large, squad Meter wise, then in the UK.

 

Fencing the Entire united states road system, with 9 foot high fencing ? Pratical? Safe? None of the above. Let alone the costs of fencing MILLIONS of miles of roadways. (Last I checked, there were something like redicously large (in the millions of miles.) So no, unless you want to totally bankrupt the US, and thusly send the world into another great depression.

 

Hunt, as well is not just to kill *beep*. Hunting 1. Limits population - thusly why Controlled hunting. 2. Builds money for game reserves - Last year along, 6 Billion dollars in the US went from Hunting Liceanses, and donations from HUNTERS alone, into preserving, as well as reclaiming, and protecting wildlife sactuaries and wetlands. Above this, this money goes to preservation of endangered specious. (Think that program doesn't work - Look at the bald eagle. Went from merely hundreds, to hundreds of thousands in 12 years. I call that pretty damn sucessful. I have a nest of them in my backyard.) 3. Controls diseases - closer animals live in conjunction with each other, the higher risk of massive disease outbreaks. 4. Controls population growth vs. Food growth - lets face it, if there was no hunting, Deer would run out of wild food very fast, So would many other specious, and they would end up starving them selve to death due to the lack, of no food durring the winter months, and early spring months.

 

I think, instead of just hoping on the bandwagon of 'Oh its just fun to kill *beep*'. People actually need to research what, Legal, Legitiment hunting actually does.

 

Now, if your going to bring up the arguement of 'People shouldn't be there in the first place' - Then please, do us all a favor and go jump off a bridge. Clears up more room for the Animals, doesn't it?

 

 

To the .50 caliber comment - Actually thats illegal in the US to do. Theres a range of calibers that you can use for hunting - .50cal BMG is not one of them. .50 cal muzzler loader - yes - up to actually .60 cal - but no where near the same.

 

Long and short: Grow up, do your research, form an arguement - don't just start spitting ###### out and call it facts. I've been around it too long to listen to the same ###### arguements over and over again, because no one cares to do research, and they just say what their friend says.

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*fruitcage* you and the horse you rode in on, buddy. I don't present other people's opinions as my own, I spit out my own half-baked ideas. If you really want what is best for the animals and the cars, you stop hunting things altogether and let nature (to use a cliche) take it's course. Stop hunting deer and the creatures that prey on deer.

 

:zorro:

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Ok sure, so we stop all the hunting of the worlds animals tomorrow.

 

In 2 years, the United state's population of hunted wild life tripples. - Which might I add it's already in excess of the aloted land. Which then thusly, causes thousands of deaths of humans in car accidents (Since, every one of course is going to try to avoid bamby, and then thusly hit a tree, or go into a ditch, or hit another car, or a bridge, or whatever is near a road).

 

 

Millions of people world wide, get un-employed since they no longer have a job producing Hunting Gear/Camo/Guns/Cleaning Deer/Housing hunters in the season/Taking hunting trips/Butchering the meat/selling hunting gear/etc.

 

I'm sorry, last I checked there are no natural predators in the Ohio valley region for deer. Nor are there many in the Texas region. Rare, is a natural predator in Colorado for an Elk, due to their size. Mule deer produce at such a rate it's rediclous.

 

Righto, you go under the quote

 

Now, if your going to bring up the arguement of 'People shouldn't be there in the first place' - Then please, do us all a favor and go jump off a bridge. Clears up more room for the Animals, doesn't it?

 

You go first, I'll follow shortly after. Promise.

 

Basiclly what your asking, is for humanity to remove all presents from this earth and let nature, to take its course. But, Unfortunately we've already in PAST Generations *fruitcage*ed up this earth SO BAD that we need to take steps forward to CONTROL and then to suttely fix what we've done. Way to do this? Preserving wetlands, re-introducing natural predators into enviroments they no longer exist in, re-introduce animals, into areas they left before. Reclaim strip mines/deforested areas/etc. Into wild game reserves. Oh... wait, wheres all the money for this coming from? The Goverment...? The Non-hunters....?

 

Haha, no.

 

The money that this comes from is each liceases that every legitment hunter comes and buys each year, and every deer tag, and ever elk tag, and every duck stamp. Billions of dollars in just liceanses and tags along, let alone above that, the hundreds of millions of dollars - if not billions - donated each year by hunters, hunting supply companies, etc.

 

I'm sick of people saying 'stop hunting its for the better!"

 

Well maybe if the generations before us in the 1700 and the 1800's DIDN'T *fruitcage* up the population so much, then we wouldn't have problems like we do today. But, guess what - History doesn't go backwards. So we need to work, and solve a problem thats presented to us today. We can't go back in time, and un-do it. Natural predators either were hunted out of areas, or they never existed in certian areas.

 

Once again, I'll restate: Instead of using a "Half-Baked" Idea, that you educate your self, and form a proper arguement. Right now, your idea would mean bad things for millions of people. Maybe not you directly - but I bet you someone, over the complete stoppage, and banning of hunting across america/world would loose their job, or go hungry for a night. (Oh, I forgot to mention that millions of pounds of Deer/Elk/Muledeer/Moose/Bear/Game meat gets donated to feed the hungry propgrams around the world? I'm sorry.) And I see that as ALOT worst then going out and legally tagging a deer, and eating it.

 

 

Btw: Deer, and elk meet - much as the rest of wild game meat - much much much healthier for you then processed cow, or chicken, or actually, ANY farm raised meats for that matter, let alone factory processed ones.

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So you're saying that banning hunting would cripple the US? How exactly is this a bad thing?

 

Also, did I suggest stopping all hunting? No. I point out there are more effective ways to prevent deer headbutting cars. If that is your concern, the logical conclusion is to eradicate all deer. Better add elk to that, I suppose. And pedestrians can get in the way sometimes.

 

:zorro:

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So you're saying that banning hunting would cripple the US? How exactly is this a bad thing?

 

Since everyone's hoping on the "Let's Bash America" bandwagon - I guess it's not a bad thing from those views.

 

 

Also, did I suggest stopping all hunting?

 

Miiiight want to look at your own post, I quote you saying:

you stop hunting things altogether and let nature (to use a cliche) take it's course. Stop hunting deer and the creatures that prey on deer

 

Hmmm...

 

 

No. I point out there are more effective ways to prevent deer headbutting cars. If that is your concern, the logical conclusion is to eradicate all deer. Better add elk to that, I suppose. And pedestrians can get in the way sometimes.

 

:zorro:

 

No, you said stop hunting. - You, Defiently said stop hunting. Not eradicate everything.

 

Along with that, lets say everything is hunted to exiction - which would have Equally as devistating consequences on the enviroment, as well as people eating everyday, etc. I don't think I need to repeat my self.

 

As for the pedestrian problem: Sure, easy solution: Lets nuke the entire world! Then only cockroaches will survive.

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Blimey, he can read! I'll have to raise my level of debate to something I might use on a Brit.

 

The problems you have with certain species being too numerous come from the eradication of predator species. The logical, ecological, "we want what's best, not just to satisfy out small-penis-related desire to kill" solution is to reintroduce those predator species and let them find their own balance.

 

 

And you still manage to avoid the issue.

I point out there are more effective ways to prevent deer headbutting cars. If that is your concern, the logical conclusion is to eradicate all deer. Better add elk to that, I suppose. And pedestrians can get in the way sometimes.

:zorro:

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Blimey, he can read! I'll have to raise my level of debate to something I might use on a Brit.

 

Amazing isn't it?

 

The problems you have with certain species being too numerous come from the eradication of predator species. The logical, ecological, "we want what's best, not just to satisfy out small-penis-related desire to kill" solution is to reintroduce those predator species and let them find their own balance.

 

Problems with this, are very logical issues.

 

Firstly, Lets take deer for example once again, since they are always brought up. Specifically, in Ohio. Deer, live in rural areas - specifically, areas that both have wooded areas, and open fields. Ok, Mountain lions are a natural predatory to White tail deer in Ohio. Now, is a mountain lion going to expend the effort to go out, and hunt/chase down a whitetail deer, which 1. Can beat the bloody hell out of it with it's antlers, 2. Can Kick the living *beep* out of it's with it's feet, and 3. Runs in excess of 40 mph.

 

Or is it going to go after that big *albatross* *fruitcage* cow thats standing in the middle of the pasture over in that field, which this cow, is so bloody dumb that all it's going to do is MOO when its juglar gets ripped out of it's neck? Comparible? Fox in a hen house - foxes, normally go after Squirrels, rabbits, etc. Not chickens.

 

Unfortunately, this problem dates back to several thousands years ago when the Human race went from a Hunter/Gather population to a farm based population. As we expand farms, or even have farms that matter with domesticated Animals - this, is basiclly a big sign that says: Fast food, open 24/7. For Predators, that is. It's just like anything - Look at the adverage American. Is the adverage American, or let alone the majority of people in the world, going to sit there for an hour, and cook them selves a Well balanced, healthy meal, or are they going to go to McGreasy and for 5$ get them self a Bigyack with cheese?

 

Unfortunately due to the huge obesity problem we have in America - it's the later of the two.

 

Once again, to solve that problem would require all human objects being removed from this earth, to once again balance out nature.

 

Thusly, we, as humans need to control the problem we started, empteen thosand years ago when we, as a collective race decided we wanted to Grow bigger, and still maintain having food, with out starving everyday.

 

And you still manage to avoid the issue.

:zorro:

 

I'm sorry, I'll fix that.

 

No, my Concern is not human safety off the bat. My Concern is to regulate what little natural reserves we have left, with out letting them over populate, run rampid, etc. But, while maintaining a decent, growing, population of all the different types of wild life, across the united states. Thusly, this gets paid for by hunters, since their liceanses fees, as well as their donations pay for Wild game Reserves, Wild Life Sancutaries, etc.

 

My concern is not to cut the population of deer so low that doesn't exist anymore. No, I'm VERY Happy every time I see a deer next to the road eating in a corn field. Why? Because about 10 years ago the woods behind my house was EXTREMELY over hunted, and since then the majority of the hunters left the area: But, my Father and I still hunt there. Why? Father son thing, we like the taste of deer meat, etc. But, now I see an over population of deer in my area. Would I want the over hunting to start again? No. But for a 480 acrea woods behind my house, not including the other 600 acres in farm land - I would like to see a Decent, amount of deer - not, the numbers there have been in the past, year, two years.

 

I love wildlife, I Hike, I camp, I hunt, I ride ATV's, etc. I don't want the population of Animals to be eradicated. It's fun going out with my Camera, and binocs with a backpack, or my ATV. I do that pretty much once or twice a month. I enjoy it, I enjoy being able to.

 

But, thats me. I'm sorry that I take this matter seriously. I'm sorry im a bloody american that can actually read and make a formal arguement, against people going around bashing my way of life.

 

Edit: HTML issues with quotes.

Edit 2: To make sure people feel my sarcasm at the end of the post.

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Well, if you try hard, you'll be able to overcome this.

 

:zorro:

 

 

I'm Sorry my sarcasim wasn't felt in the last part of my post before this one.

 

Maybe next time I'll try harder at letting everyone know how Sarcasitc I was being. Perhaps, an Edit is called for.

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hmmmm... maybe we should've left England to the Germans all those years ago if they're just going to carry on about with the "down with USA" ######... if only we could go back in time... :)

 

anyways... back on topic...

 

I take it you eat meat, right? Have you ever been to a slaughterhouse? the cows/chickens/pigs stand absolutely no chance whatsoever of survival, but when you're hunting the deer stands a MUCH better chance of survival versus a cow in a slaughterhouse... why aren't you protesting in front of the slaughterhouses instead of going after those who give the animals a "sporting chance" as you put it?

 

You want to go out and hug the bunnies and the deer? go right ahead, I'm not stopping you.. But you haven't yet produced a practical alternative to hunting

 

And as for letting nature take it's course, is it more cruel to starve somebody to death over a period of weeks or to shoot them and have it over in a few minutes if not sooner?

 

We got plenty of bunny huggers over here who think hunting is cruel, and what you're presenting is the same ###### they spew... try again...

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I hunt.

 

I have a Mannlicher BA rifle, a Beretta shotgun and a couple of FAC air-rifles.

 

We get paid to shoot certain birds, rats and foxes so, if we're shooting, we'll always take a fox if we can or, if it rains, sit in a barn with an air-rifle whacking rats.

 

Other than vermin, everything I shoot either gets eaten or sold.

I live out in the country and there are a couple of local shoots which attract some serious money. These guys don't like to wander about by themselves so the local game-keeper will invite his mates to join the shoot so the guest of honour gets the gen-yoo-ine "country shoot" experience.

I've been shooting with Mel Gibson, Steven Segal, amongst others, and I waded across a river with Kurt Russell so we could beat everybody else to the next field.

TBH, it's kinda like golf though. If you're playing with the boss you never make him look bad.

Still, at the very least it's a good walk for the dog and we usually get a box of cartridges, a meal and a night on the beer out of it.

Anything you kill on one of these shoots goes back to the lodge and gets cooked for the evening meal.

 

When I'm out by myself, or with a mate, we'll shoot pheasants, grouse and rabbits. There are other things which are on the menu but I probably shouldn't say any more.

 

Thing is, I'm not daft and I DO have mixed feelings about hunting. If I'm part of a big party and a huge bunch of birds are flushed and people are knocking them out of the sky like there's no tommorow I will often either aim low or I'll just not bother shooting at all.

For me, the ideal day hunting is to spend a day in good company and come home with enough to make a good meal (consumed with a couple of bottles of wine) and no more.

 

The only other thing I'd have to say about hunting is that I admire it's "honesty".

It's all very well people condemning hunting as barbaric and un-neccesary but meat has to get to your table somehow.

Beef does NOT come from Tesco's.

In my more bolshy moments I have actually suggested that nobody should be allowed to eat meat until they have hunted it for themselves.

Obviously, that's not a very practical suggestion but it does bug me when people have a go at me for taking 4 rabbits when something like 2000 cows are going into the grinder every hour (or whatever) to supply them with their quarter-pounders and big macs.

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ya know. they are british. they are always america bashing. But mind them if it wern't for us they would be speaking german.

I was looking at one of the styer scouts the other day. looks like a fine rifle. any one used one?

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I was looking at one of the styer scouts the other day. looks like a fine rifle. any one used one?

From what I've seen in the catalogue, the steyr scout is, basically, the same rifle as mine but with a whizzy "tactical" stock. It's very nice and pretty cheap too.

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From what I've seen in the catalogue, the steyr scout is, basically, the same rifle as mine but with a whizzy "tactical" stock. It's very nice and pretty cheap too.

 

 

That is why i was wondering. someone at the range told me it was a K98 internally. but in 308. I like it. but i like more exotic weapons. things most people have never seen. LOL that is just my taste i guess. I love my m700 to death, dont get me wrong. but for the L96 style folding para stock I want, it is going to be 600 bucks. a little less than i have at the moment.

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hmmmm... maybe we should've left England to the Germans all those years ago if they're just going to carry on about with the "down with USA" ######... if only we could go back in time...  :)

 

anyways... back on topic...

 

I take it you eat meat, right? Have you ever been to a slaughterhouse? the cows/chickens/pigs stand absolutely no chance whatsoever of survival, but when you're hunting the deer stands a MUCH better chance of survival versus a cow in a slaughterhouse... why aren't you protesting in front of the slaughterhouses instead of going after those who give the animals a "sporting chance" as you put it?

 

You want to go out and hug the bunnies and the deer? go right ahead, I'm not stopping you.. But you haven't yet produced a practical alternative to hunting

 

And as for letting nature take it's course, is it more cruel to starve somebody to death over a period of weeks or to shoot them and have it over in a few minutes if not sooner?

 

We got plenty of bunny huggers over here who think hunting is cruel, and what you're presenting is the same ###### they spew... try again...

Yes that would be nice wouldnt it. :)

 

Also slaughterhouses are just really cruel of how they kill the animals, isnt it where a spike goes into the throat of a cow and they let it bleed to death?

I see Foxtrot and destruko have already made alot of points I wouldve made. I think most if not all hunters eat the meat, give it to homeless shelters, or sell it.

 

ya know. they are british. they are always america bashing. But mind them if it wern't for us they would be speaking german.

I remeber I started a disscusion somewhat like this in another thread and I see Sledge has already gone onto how it was the Russians who saved them (He did the same thing with me) and then after I explained to him that it wasnt only the Russians, he was just being ignorant and said nope it was only the Russians and then brought up the subject of Vietnam, real nice chap. :rolleyes: (I think whenever Sledge wants to start a disscussion everyone should just ignore him.)

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This topic reminds me of a debate on the ethics of whale hunting we did in business studies.

A few people I know kept saying it was cruel because it could take up to 45 min for a whale to die when it was being hunted, but when promted to find a better alternative, the best plan they made was sending divers down with a big net with weights on the end to drown it.

I think there can be only 2 options for hunters

1.When shooting animals not classed as vermin, use the carcass.

2.When shooting vermin dispose of the carcass

 

And guys please turn down the country bashing to 0. And please don't use the excuse "he's started it" if he has don't rise to the bait.

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I'm saying that killing deer because sometimes they get hit by cars seems like a flawed argument. Besides, what are these people doing driving next to forests? Can you not put a fence by the road?

 

:zorro:

Foxtrot is right, in america deer are everywhere, I've seen them in my yard and I don't live out in the wilderness or anything. It's impossible to drive anywhere without driving by deer.

 

Scientists have done studys on overpopulated deer, and the deer always die by consuming food too quickly for it to grow back. Somebody has to keep the situtation under control.

 

Why does this have to turn into another hallow political debate? I like both america and england but if I hated england I wouldn't bring it up because it has nothing to do with hunting.

 

Also why are people talking about ww2 as if they had something to do with it? "If it wern't for us you'd be nazis?" There's no us, the people who fought in that war are dead or very old and senile like my neighbor who keeps screaming that we'd all be japenese if it wern't for him.

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