Jump to content

My eye! Sweet Jesus, Ouch!


Recommended Posts

Circa 2006 maybe - In order to engage a target the person firing the weapon must have reason to do so. Either they've been cleared to engage (post a Collateral damage estimate, if there's non-combatant lives involved clearance will not be given) or they'll be firing in self defence or defence of another human.

 

Positively identifying a target (or PID) is required before ANY lethal or non-lethal force is taken.

 

 

 

It isn't irrelevant if it's the reason. Simply put, NATO forces will not fire a weapon or weapon system at another human without 100% confirmation that they're aiming at the right person(s) and have reason to do so. Either they're a baddie and we know they are because of intelligence gathering, or they're a baddie that is trying to kill someone else.

 

 

 

Sounds great in an ideal world. Unfortunately the facts are this:

 

Since 2004:

 

Total strikes: 413
Obama strikes: 362
Total killed: 2,438-3,943
Civilians killed: 416-959
Children killed: 168-204
Injured: 1,142-1,720
 
Let alone blue on blue etc. So PID clearly fails. Then add in that we are not talking about a rifle but rather weapons that do damage over a wide(ish) area and as such are indiscriminate. 
 
What I mean by irrelevant is this: If you kill a civilian you have murdered them, regardless of whether you had the "authority to lethal force".
 
edit: for example lets take the "collateral murder" incident. An Apache fired on and killed civilians. The Military denied this and said they were "enemy combatants". It took a whistleblower to reveal the truth - who is now in prison. 
 
edit: I'll read and consider your reply but this could be a dodgy road to go down so this will be last ramble on this particular subject! 
Edited by Skarclaw
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 24.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Hedganian

    2254

  • shmook

    2033

  • FireKnife

    1686

  • scorch

    1618

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Well, it's nearly Christmas! A time to laugh and joke, to sing and... who am I trying to kid? I hate this time of year, it always makes me irritable and angry. And that tends to spill into other areas

Wow, you've chosen to play today's edition of 'Wheel of Fortune!'   Let's see what you've won!   CONGRATULATIONS! For using homophobic language (because I'm sure as *suitcase* you're not calling m

ahhh.... that reminds me...   The losers who say that I'm wasting my money on airsoft... you spend $4000 on an ATV... and you accuse me of wasting money??

Posted Images

I experienced both tbh.  In Iraq 2007 our ROE were pretty much "shoot anyone who looks funny" and by the time I got to Afghan all this "courageous restraint" stuff had come in.

 

Did it save civilian lives?  of course.

 

Did it get more soldiers killed because it instilled an element of doubt where before there would be none? Of course.

 

I was an infantryman, there's nothing in our mission statement about peace keeping, so I know which one I prefer.

 

Darkchild

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was an infantryman, there's nothing in our mission statement about peace keeping, so I know which one I prefer.

Why, that's rough. It's also fuel for the propaganda that "the bloodthirsty anglo-zionist mercenaries murder innocent people in order to dominate the Middle East". But damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Stabilisation is a key word in all our deployments.

In order to achieve that you have to knock some heads. Casualty lists are bad yes, you'll sometimes cause accidental death - but look at the ISIS treatment of anyone different - you can protest all you want but only actual military action is going to stop them.

They're locking kids in cages to be burnt for *fruitcage*s sake.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't that the basic point of a soldier? To risk their life for civilians? Not talking just British army, but any army. If protecting civilian lives isn't top of the list something has gone wrong.

 

Our civilians, certainly.  The infantry mission is "To close with and engage the enemy in close quarters battle."  That is the basic point of a soldier.  

I'm not saying I'd go out of my way to harm civilians, I just don't care about them. They're just there.  I get ordered to do a psyops patrol and hand out food and clothing to a poor village, fine.

 

If I patrol through the next day and one of those villagers decides to use his phone to direct mortar fire onto my patrol, then I'll shoot him in the face. Indifference is the point I'm getting across here.

 

Defeating the enemy is the top of our list of priorities, as infantrymen. (I must stress I cannot speak for the rest of troops)

 

Darkchild

Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the infantry mission was to drink everything they could drink, fight every male and impregnate every female* within a 25km radius of the block?

 

*NAAFI staff count as females in the loosest sense of the term.

 

It's estimated that between 1942-45 American troops committed 14,000 rapes across the UK, France and Germany. 

 

edit: *fruitcage* knows what happened on the Russian side.

Edited by Skarclaw
Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why we have stuff like the Geneva convention. Not that anyone we fight against these days cares about it.

 

Darkchild

That's the difference between us and them though. We don't strap bombs to children and send them into crowded markets, sometimes making another child detonate the explosives.

 

Apparently one of the first things prisoners are asked when they are taken for questioning is if they were tortuered by their captors, which most captives will say yes to as they know its a way to beat the system.

 

"Oh my son was going to pray, he had a Qu'ran in his hands" When it was in fact a rifle that mysteriously vanished before troops could get there. Of course maybe the sniper was lying...

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why we have stuff like the Geneva convention.  Not that anyone we fight against these days cares about it.

 

Darkchild

 

Yeah and its so petty. Like that bloke that shot that wounded talib. I don't condone it but dragging him into a tribunal to make an example (imo) whilst "legal" atrocities are committed seems a bit rich. 

 

"us and them" is a dangerous road to go down. No we don't strap bombs to children but we do invade countries seemingly on a whim, bomb the *suitcase* out them and then wonder why they take up arms and don't embrace "freedom and democracy". We also allowed kids to get buggered, repeatably  so we could get intel on IRA figures. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done that before, it's surprising how annoying it is...

 

Edit, what makes it worse is when the dogs hear it and come barrelling in, and snaffle a sumptuous freshly cooked meal right in front of you!

Edited by shmook
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done that before, it's surprising how annoying it is...

 

Edit, what makes it worse is when the dogs hear it and come barrelling in, and snaffle a sumptuous freshly cooked meal right in front of you!

And then they sick it up because dogs are too stupid to realise it's too hot for them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are allot of things going on in Afghanistan that as a society we shouldn't allow to happen and morally speaking should be prevented. The existence of bacha bazi and it being acceptable in any culture. The rape of men who are physically and or socially weaker. The casual violence towards women and children. The way that anyone who isn't of their sect or tribe is viewed as subhuman and deserving of extermination.

 

The problem is how can a civilised society fight a group capable of committing such atrocities as we have seen casually with no doubt that what they are doing.is right.

 

The problem is that if we fight under a western rule of law we are lambasted as weak and cowards and ripe for the plucking for the glory of..... and if we respond with atrocities and indiscriminate extermination debasing ourselves and losing our sense of humanity. We become the demon and the great Satan to.rage against.

 

Even those.groups that we have supported and armed such as the ANA commit the same crimes the same acts as those they are fighting against. Offering to buy or sell a subordinate as a sex toy or supporting thw stoning to death of a woman for 'having the audacity to be assaulted for the shame. She has caused her family'.

 

I don't have any answers all.I know.is what I have seen and heard isn't righttp:// and it tests my faith knowing that such things happen.

 

The problem with fighting insurgnets and people like the taliban/IS is that civilian becomes combat any to fire his round or kill his target then by the time the press get there he was just some poor farmer/refugee and the opposition are hateful evil murderers.

 

Launching rockets from hospitals and mosques and then having people weeping and wailing about the innocents lost when their rocket battery is destroyed.

 

It makes me angry such acts occ ur and that I can't see a way to stop it. To stop the pain and the abuse and the hatred.

 

I am really interested.in the F 35 story as it could lead to amazing leaps in mobility for.people, controlling a power chair or a car with neural impulses for example would mean that the physical limitations of the damaged hand on the joystick wouldn't matter. Hat person Could have allot more physical freedom.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and the use of session cookies.