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As I live right next to a golf course, I can give full assurances that golf is primarily a way for folks to get drunk without having to go to the local bar or be accused of drinking too heavily.

 

"I wasn't out drinking, I was out golfing with my league!"

 

To think I almost agreed to work cleaning carts again, 5 work seconds of that is far too much.

 

Fixed that for you.

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Exactly that, otherwise the KUR (key user requirements) would have to be changed to reflect the new data, a process that would put back the kit procurement for months.

 

Darkchild

So the incentive is for them to hit only the requested data and no better?

 

 

 

So 5000 round barrel life and not one round more exactly minimum requested weight and exactly the MOA laid out in the request.... christ and we wonder why these been no groundbreaking innovation in small arms design....

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So the incentive is for them to hit only the requested data and no better?

 

 

 

So 5000 round barrel life and not one round more exactly minimum requested weight and exactly the MOA laid out in the request.... christ and we wonder why these been no groundbreaking innovation in small arms design....

No, the incentive is to get vital equipment into soldier's hands that meets the requirement laid out in the KUR, rather than delay it by six months and deny them that capability for the entire duration of a tour.

 

5000 round barrel life, What the *fruitcage* have you been firing?  try about 50,000 before their first inspection.  Our snipers had L96s without any rifling left in the barrels, they had fired over 100k each.  The Army is poor.

 

Darkchild

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No, the incentive is to get vital equipment into soldier's hands that meets the requirement laid out in the KUR, rather than delay it by six months and deny them that capability for the entire duration of a tour.

 

5000 round barrel life, What the *fruitcage* have you been firing? try about 50,000 before their first inspection. Our snipers had L96s without any rifling left in the barrels, they had fired over 100k each. The Army is poor.

 

Darkchild

I meant from the point of view of the Company producing the weapons Darkchild I'm sorry if iv offended you mate

 

 

what I mean is they have no incentive to go above and beyond the spec request because if it's demonstrated that it can do more

 

like you have with this rifle it has to change the KUR and delays it annother 6 months and if it is drastically better it could be decided it's not fit for purpose because of the differences from the spec.

 

This means that you though you know the weapon is capable of x but can't talk about it so knowledge that could be useful in actual use isn't known.

 

Companies haven't then to me got any incentive to really innovate and put something really groundbreaking out there because there's no guarantee exceeding the

Spec by a massive amount will get the contract. 'Good enough for government work' and all that.

 

I can see exactly why you aren't documenting it and you're trying to get this system out to the troops as quickly as possible in order to put a tool in people's hands that can potentially save lives by increasing the chance of fire superiority and ensure that they aren't outraged by oposition forces in a contact.

 

 

It wasn't in anyway meant to criticise you just im questioning why that a product that delivers to the customer more than they have asked for is a problem.

 

Iv seen the same thing within the NHS and DOH due to my dad's work where something that exceeds what was asked for isn't taken up or causes issues because it delivers more than demanded meaning they roman about money or implementation or....

 

Also bus drivers are ttwats if you have any sort of PD issue. They see me getting on on crutches or with the cane (chairs in the shop) do they wait for me to sit diem as supposed to.... do they *fruitcage*.

 

I press the bell to get him to stop and he doesn't stop at that one because... 'no one's getting up' and then blows oast the second stop I pressed the bell twice for meaning I have to walk dam near 20m ti where I need to be because there's nowhere safe for me to cross the road.... its ALWAYS First buses I have problems with, that don't wait and cause me to fall across a moving bus... or don't ask pushchairs to be folded or moved so I can get on as per the rules.

 

I wish I could drive on these meds

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Get a camera like a GoPro or something. Carry it with you and use it all the time.

Complain constantly and vociferously about every rule that is broken and every inconvenience you endure.

Document everything.

Send all the video files, complaints and responses to the company headquarters, local and national media, MPs and anyone else you can think of.

Sit back and enjoy the fun.

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I meant from the point of view of the Company producing the weapons Darkchild I'm sorry if iv offended you mate

 

 

what I mean is they have no incentive to go above and beyond the spec request because if it's demonstrated that it can do more

 

like you have with this rifle it has to change the KUR and delays it annother 6 months and if it is drastically better it could be decided it's not fit for purpose because of the differences from the spec.

 

This means that you though you know the weapon is capable of x but can't talk about it so knowledge that could be useful in actual use isn't known.

 

Companies haven't then to me got any incentive to really innovate and put something really groundbreaking out there because there's no guarantee exceeding the

Spec by a massive amount will get the contract. 'Good enough for government work' and all that.

 

I can see exactly why you aren't documenting it and you're trying to get this system out to the troops as quickly as possible in order to put a tool in people's hands that can potentially save lives by increasing the chance of fire superiority and ensure that they aren't outraged by oposition forces in a contact.

 

 

It wasn't in anyway meant to criticise you just im questioning why that a product that delivers to the customer more than they have asked for is a problem.

 

Iv seen the same thing within the NHS and DOH due to my dad's work where something that exceeds what was asked for isn't taken up or causes issues because it delivers more than demanded meaning they roman about money or implementation or....

 

Also bus drivers are ttwats if you have any sort of PD issue. They see me getting on on crutches or with the cane (chairs in the shop) do they wait for me to sit diem as supposed to.... do they *fruitcage*.

 

I press the bell to get him to stop and he doesn't stop at that one because... 'no one's getting up' and then blows oast the second stop I pressed the bell twice for meaning I have to walk dam near 20m ti where I need to be because there's nowhere safe for me to cross the road.... its ALWAYS First buses I have problems with, that don't wait and cause me to fall across a moving bus... or don't ask pushchairs to be folded or moved so I can get on as per the rules.

 

I wish I could drive on these meds

 

No you misunderstand, it would not be declared to be fit for purpose if it exceeds the requirements, so the trial would have to be rewritten to accommodate the new data.

Equipment trials take months and years to get into motion, so if you take data that works outside of the brackets (eg first round hits on target beyond 800m)  then other agencies get involved, investigations happen and then companies that have applied for tender end up suing you because their weapon was "more" fit for task when you selected something else.

 

If the KUR requires to hit out 800m, and company A provides a rifle that shoots out exactly to 800m very well, then company B provides a rifle that excels beyond 1000m, legally company A has provided the more suitable weapon.

In real life this is complete , and we just pick the best weapon (which we did eventually)  but it means you can't accurately portray the thing for fear of a comeback from industry.

It's complete *suitcase*, but it means we get the gear we need a lot quicker.

It is why the initial KURs must be near as perfect as we can get.

 

Also, companies rarely innovate (especially weapons companies), they make the cheapest, shittiest products they can get away with to maximise profits.

That's just the way the world works unfortunately.

 

Darkchild

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That's what I thought the issue was sorry if I didn't express.it very well. That if the companies entry doesn't stick rigidly to the KUR and perform no better because there isn't an incentive to do so because it could cause them to lose the contract because of stupidity like court cases from rivals and because other groups within gov decide

 

'because your item does beyond 800m it's obviously a candidate for the Snipers weapon not just a squad level DMR and the rules state we have to be involved in sniper team weaponry and we need to add this tasking and this requirement and this need' and then some other mob go 'but hat means you are using this round and we have a seat at any development of that replacement and we need xyz so rewrite it again'

 

And 2 years later you are stood there testing something that isn't fit for your purpose and you can't select because 1. It's trying to wear too many different hats and 2. Even if it is still great for your role it's wrong because it's competitor is more 'fit for purpose' and the whole cycle starts right at the beginning again meaning the K.U.R is now hopelessly out of date and needs rewriting.

 

As for your thoughts on innovation yeah true but I feel that the current system of laws regarding weapons manufacturing and the way that acquisition of new systems work don't help. I mean to build an Owen gun or a blacker bombard would be a serious crime for a private individual in the UK and the US so would never have been developed to prototype level.

 

John Browning wouldn't have been able.to do tlhalf the things he did in his early years because of the permitting system for being able to manufacture and build prototype weapons like belted machine guns and the taxes that go along with those licences and permits.

 

I just think that it has become impractical for anyone but the big boys to do any sort of new idea and that means that true hobbyist innovation won't happen and the market won't see new and groundbreaking ideas as the establishment isn't setup for them.

 

I mean the nearest ground breaking thing in civilian design terms over the last 5 years have been the bumpfire/slidefire/fostech stocks (and they are just an evolution of Akins 80's patent)

 

The remongton r51 which was a rebuild of a 1920's pistol and that flopped massively

 

The sig brace is the only real groundbreaking to come from outside the establishment (designed by a guy on ar15.com and picked up by sig) and that has since been legislated out of existence and value

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You are confusing various concepts and mashing them together.  

There is scope for innovation in firearms development, but I'm talking about procurement and the trials process.

As an end user, we literally do not care what the weapon is as long as it is the cheapest, and meets requirements.

As a potential bidder (now I will approach from a Project Management angle as strangely, I'm also qualified in that) there is no benefit in going beyond the spec lined out in the initial brief.  We call this scope creep, and it's what I was pointing out in my last post.

Considering your main factors are time, cost and benefits, it makes sense to stick to what you know and get out the most basic product possible. Ironically, this process does drive a type of innovation, realistic innovation, such as the use of lighter materials, cheaper and faster manufacturing processes etc.  This is what drives weapons manufacture, incremental improvements over time.

 

This stuff is very methodical and realistic, as resources (such as range access, trial troops, specialist ammo for example) are very limited.

 

There will be no revolution in weapons manufacture involved in the procurement/trial process.  NOBODY wants it.

The paradigm shifts occur when a company pursues something new on its own time frame at its own cost, it is then up to them to convince customers that they have made anything worthwhile.

Combining what you call innovation within the trial process would make a confusing mess of unfocused .  

 

And correctly written KURs do not become out of date, as the equipment we trial either replaces something that already exists, or seeks to fill capability gaps identified over a comprehensive review.

 

In my last posting we used to have periodical sessions, where Scientists and other innovators from industry would come in with all their crazy ideas to solve a problem (such as replacing the current service rifle).  I would have to spend all day beating people with my common sense stick because they are not war fighters and simply do not understand.

No sub calibre weapons are not a possibility, 5.56mm is bad enough, we want to make the calibre larger, not smaller.

No you cannot save ammo by simulating suppressive fire with an audio device (you are not suppressed by sound, you are suppressed by the fact that the brick next to your head just exploded and your mate just lost his face)

No, carrying separate ammo components does not decrease the soldier's load, as we still have to put it all together to form the ammunition!

Pulse rifles are a great idea, thanks, go sink several billion pound into research and get back to us.

(These were all genuine ideas thrown at us by "experts")

Innovation is a dangerous thing when your business is killing people.

 

For contrast, my idea was the adoption of a short barreled version of the Sharpshooter rifle.  Switch the sights, shorten the forend, 13 inch barrel, 30 round mags, done.  You have a short, powerful carbine capable of nailing people out to 500m, what more could a grunt possibly want?

Then you change the training to reflect the calibre.  Move away from spray and pray (that we adopted from the Americans) because that's why we carry machine guns in our sections, and adopt a more deliberate style of individual marksmanship, like we did up to WW2.

 

 

Darkchild

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Spent the last week on the Moroccan coast which was all good except for stomach bug which had me burping rotten eggs and liquid coming out both ends, at speed :(

 

Back to work today and they've done some ###### IT change which means we all have to do our *suitcase* on a virtual machine. I have no idea why as we are an 18 strong office so no real need. Naturally my PC isn't up to scratch so my browser continually crashes and I get lag typing FFS. if it ain't broke don't fix it, argh!!

 

I also have a rather concerning lump on my neck!

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One of my best friend's fiance has been denied access to the country for their wedding.

 

Unsure if it was Visa or at the border and whether she can appeal or not but damn.

 

I also apologise if my apostraphe is in the wrong place, awkward because friends is plural but she's only engaged to the one guy. At least I hope.

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Darkchild would something in say 260 or 280 be enough of a change to Warrant moving calibres?

 

Going back to our 50's research that said a 6.5 or 7mm bullet would be the best balistically.

 

The yanks *fruitcage*ed us with 7.62 back in the day promising to go with a standardised weapon then backing out and going for the m14.

 

The 7.62 was basically a continuation of the Americans cult of the rifleman *badger*s where they wanted a 1000yard capable cartridge that can drop a horse. (The spec for the 30.06 demanded ) and 7.62 had to meet the 06 specs.

 

Flatter shooting than 7.62 not giving up range and also being lighter. With better bullet design to take advantage of the yaw from 5.56 but also larger holes with heavier rounds.

 

One idea I have seen doing the rounds in the us discussion foruns is having some sort of bridging calibre augmenting g and supporting the heavy machine guns like the 50 that is vehicle mounted.

 

Using the new GD machine gun chambered in .338norma as a vehicle mounted replacement for the current 7.62 guns,but also having some carried in place of those 50's that are carried by infantry. The ammo would be lighter than the linked 50 but heavier than 7.62 with more range and punch

 

 

Steyr's entry for the ACR trials in the 90's seems interesting high speed bursts of flechette's moving at 4900fps. Plastic cartridge half the weight of 5.56 and dam near no recoil.

 

The gel tests seemed like you didn't lose much in terms of wounding ability based on what is shown in the ACR video.

 

Or how about implementing a constant recoil system lmg like the ultimak that Singapore use? Could the recoil suppression of that tech make a difference do you think?ooo

There's some awesome tech out there that needs an interested client to push development onwards. (Tgat isn't a gov that will fund 70% of it then change their mind scrap It all and classify what's left (

 

Thanks for explaining all this, getting tools into soldier's hands that are the best they can be at the assigned task sounds a really important job but also a real challenge

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It's difficult, going from end user to trials NCO was an eye opener, let me tell you.  7.62mm is fine, it is the perfect calibre for a soldier, it can nail people up to 1000m with the right weapon (plus sniper grade ammo, used to be called green spot) and puts big holes in people up close so they don't get back up.  There are untold millions of rounds in the system, so no need to any new fancy ammo type.

Seriously, when you're in the *suitcase* and you see the difference between effect on target (squishy, naughty people) between 5.56mm and 7.62mm you become an instant convert.

We were sawing dudes in half in Iraq with GPMGs.

Also, if your sharpshooter rifle is running low in a fight, just de-link some of the GPMG ammo that every bloke carries and crack on.

There are all sorts of factors civvies just don't get when they throw their "innovative" ideas at us.

The 7.62mm round will keep us going until somebody puts blokes in armour that can reliably stop it.  And, no, getting your ribs broken by a SAPI plate doesn't count. 

 

I'm of the opinion that the next leap will be cased telescopic rounds, giving the infantryman more variety in ammo types.  With advancements in propellants/explosives, you could have small arms with micro HESH rounds, Flechette canisters, AP sabots frangible rounds and less than lethal ammo all in the same weapon system.

This will allow commanders to tailor loadouts based on mission parameters. 

And forget all this "smart bullet" , we like our rounds dumb.  Blokes will never trust it, first time it hits the wrong target, or malfunctions in any way it will be binned.

 

Darkchild

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