.20 vs. .25 BBs

[ggrimes]

I've read the velocity threads and am a bit confused by it all. Not being a mathmatician, can any one explain to me the differences between .20 gram and .25 gram BBs in regards to performance with range and accuracy? I know that they cost more and will fire at different fps, but which is better and why? Is one preferable in woodlands over CQB? General information along those lines would be helpful.

 

Thank you

[Lance Jackass]

I've allways had the belief that .25s are more accurate than .20s because the wind doesn't affect them as much, but the .25s have a decreased fps/range. Whether thats right or wrong i don't know.

 

.2s or .25s will be fine for both urban and woodland.

[The_One_Free_Man]

As brief as I can make it, and understandable, a 0.20 will leave the barrel faster than a 0.25 because it is lighter, however wind will alter its path later in its journey also due to its lightness. A 0.25 will initially leave the barrel at a slower speed but its path will be far more stable and consistent than a 0.20. Also its flys further than a 0.20 due to its extra momentum.

[Glenn]

.25s.

 

More range, more accuracy.

 

Search for a bit, there have been lots of discussions about it. The basic idea is that at the same energy, a denser (.25g) projectile has more inertia, so that it will tend to stay in motion longer. This translates to greater velocity later in its ballistic arc. .2s leave the barrel moving faster, but at some point before they hit the ground, .25s are moving faster than .2s, everytime.

[bjorn]

IMHO - if it is full CQB only and you tend to shoot a lot, then use 0.2g for they are more cheaper and in short distance it doesnt make a difference.

 

In woodland if you have the money then always buy 0.25g. Not only they fly further, are a lot more accurate and not affected by the wind but they also go through light bush and grass a lot better!

[Carrion]

alot has to do with preferance. you get the IMPRESSION of more range with .25s because the bb has a longer accurate range therefor you hit what your going for more oftern at the same ranges. then again alot has to do with hop up. at Ground zero this weekend my M60 was actualy matching ranges with 500fps snipers whne it was chronoed at 265 (with hop ON).

 

i was using ,2s with a higher set up hop to give a longer range,

 

the flick side however i didnt have much accuracy (i was lucky to hit ANYTHING past 60 meters even terrain) , well its was a 60 and i used it as such.

 

for my aegs in woodland i use .25s normaly or if its still air i use .2s

 

for my m3 super i only use .25s

[Glenn]

alot has to do with preferance.  you get the IMPRESSION of more range with .25s because the bb has a longer accurate range therefor you hit what your going for more oftern at the same ranges.   then again alot has to do with hop up.  at Ground zero this weekend my M60 was actualy matching ranges with 500fps snipers whne it was chronoed at 265 (with hop ON).

 

i was using ,2s with a higher set up hop to give a longer range,

 

the flick side however i didnt have much accuracy (i was lucky to hit ANYTHING past 60 meters even terrain) , well its was a 60 and i used it as such.

 

for my aegs in woodland i use .25s normaly or if its still air i use .2s

 

for my m3 super i only use .25s

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Any discussion of mass vs. range has to include the assumption of optimum hop up setting. You can hop your guns as high as you want, but at some point you might as well be throwing BBs, they'll have such an awful trajectory.

 

With optimized or equalized (not the same thing) hop, .25s fly further. No impressions about it. Longer effective range, longer range, period.

[EvOrAcEr]

.25s.

 

More range, more accuracy.

 

Search for a bit, there have been lots of discussions about it. The basic idea is that at the same energy, a denser (.25g) projectile has more inertia, so that it will tend to stay in motion longer. This translates to greater velocity later in its ballistic arc. .2s leave the barrel moving faster, but at some point before they hit the ground, .25s are moving faster than .2s, everytime.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Without all the tech wizz cr*p involved.

 

Since when do .25's achieve a greater range ? I've shot them both and i found .25's to lose me around 5-8metres in range.

 

Plus how do you manage to see that a .25 would be pushed at the same power as a .2 as any common sense would see it obviously wont.

[Glenn]

Without all the tech wizz cr*p involved.

 

Since when do .25's achieve a greater range ? I've shot them both and i found .25's to lose me around 5-8metres in range.

 

Plus how do you manage to see that a .25 would be pushed at the same power as a .2 as any common sense would see it obviously wont.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Best post of the day, by far.

 

.25s have better range than .2s. Go out and test it.

 

 

If by "pushed with the same power" you mean have the same kinetic energy, then mass is irrelevant. Seriously, go read. Read some physics, read some threads on this topic. Energy is conserved, everywhere, but here, knowledge annihilates as fast as I can click submit.

 

Common sense? Jesus. Alegebra is about as common sense as it gets, and clearly if your gun outputs 1J, your BB will have (abouts) 1J upon leaving the barrel. If you can't understand the difference between energy and velocity, well, then go away.

[doom6668]

Well i'm now (having tried all sorts of experiments and variations in the field) of the opinion that .25s are what i will use from now on.

Most armchair warriors will say that 7.62mm beats 5.56mm in combat and in some ways thats true.

Larger mass, similar (note i said similar as in both are high) velocity= longer range and added stability.

Works with bbs as well. Try it.

[pinoyboy]

Did no one notice the article on this site? It answers alot I think

 

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/a...s_dist_time.htm

 

this is from the article:

1. Shots made within 50 feet will have a greater ending velocity with .20 gram bbs.

2. Shots made over 50 feet should use .25 gram bbs for stability and velocity retention.

3. BB flight times under 0.25 of a second can use .20 gram bbs for a higher velocity.

4. BB flight times over 0.25 of a second should use .25 gram bbs because velocity and momentum is conserved better.

5. Shots fewer than 90 feet can use .20 gram bbs for a faster shot time.

6. Shots made over 90 feet should use .25 gram bbs for a quicker, more stable ammo flight path.

[SilentSerpent]

As brief as I can make it, and understandable, a 0.20 will leave the barrel faster than a 0.25 because it is lighter, however wind will alter its path later in its journey also due to its lightness. A 0.25 will initially leave the barrel at a slower speed but its path will be far more stable and consistent than a 0.20. Also its flys further than a 0.20 due to its extra momentum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

this is ######s, a .20 and a .25 fired from the same gun will have EXACTLY the same momentum, as the formula for momentum is Vxm or velocity (speed) x mass (weight), as the muzzle energy will always be the same, the .25 will be travelling slower proportional to it's weight, but has more mass than the .20. it is true that .25s go further, but it has bugger all to do with momentum.

[ThaFlash]

Real world application is different then theory inside of a vacum. Density and wind resistence play a big part. Drop a ball of paper and a ball of tape inside of a vacum and both accelerate the same rate. Do the same from a tall building and witness the more dense object experiencing greater terminal velocity.

[Glenn]

this is ######s, a .20 and a .25 fired from the same gun will have EXACTLY the same momentum, as the formula for momentum is Vxm or velocity (speed) x mass (weight), as the muzzle energy will always be the same, the .25 will be travelling slower proportional to it's weight, but has more mass than the .20. it is true that .25s go further, but it has bugger all to do with momentum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Are you also retarded? Initial momentum is pretty damn close to the same, but no, it is not the same. Initial momentum isn't the important factor here. The object with the greater mass will retain its velocity in the face of a drag better than a smaller one. This has been proved mathmatically a good half dozen times.

 

DO THE MATH BEFORE POSTING. KTHX

 

For everyones information:

At 1J

.2g BBs have a linear momentum of .02

.25g BBs have a linear momentum of .0223

.3g BBs have a linear momentum of .0245

 

See how momentum increases with mass, even though the energy is the same? The differences are fairly insignifigant, but the changes in mass are not relative to to magnitude of the drag forces each BB experiences. These gaps will widen with flight time. All of this coincides exactely with the data quoted above.

 

Also, mass isn't weight, velocity isn't speed.

 

Don't post anything without doing the math. It'll save everyone time. And don't post your algebra mistakes either.

[Catchv22]

Did no one notice the article on this site? It answers alot I think

 

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/a...s_dist_time.htm

 

this is from the article:

1.  Shots made within 50 feet will have a greater ending velocity with .20 gram bbs.

2. Shots made over 50 feet should use .25 gram bbs for stability and velocity retention.

3. BB flight times under 0.25 of a second can use .20 gram bbs for a higher velocity.

4. BB flight times over 0.25 of a second should use .25 gram bbs because velocity and momentum is conserved better.

5. Shots fewer than 90 feet can use .20 gram bbs for a faster shot time.

6. Shots made over 90 feet should use .25 gram bbs for a quicker, more stable ammo flight path.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think this sums up the problem in layman's terms quite well.

[Sale]

Glenn is correct here, but the article pinoyboy linked to had some good points too.

 

Heavier BBs will leave at lower muzzle velocity, so for short distances .20s will reach the target faster. However, as the lighter BBs lose their momentum faster, there's a point where the heavy BB will overtake the lighter one, if they are shot with the same energy at the same time.

 

It should also be noticed that optimum BB weight depends on the power level of the gun. For a cheap springer with fixed hop up for .12 grams, it makes no sense to use even .20s let alone .25s. When doing tests with guns over forum limits (but within international sane skirmish limits), you might find that .3 grams gives even better performance than .25s, but .3 is a bit too heavy for 1 joule guns.

 

-Sale

[Enforcer]

Why should a bullet fly further when using the same energy?? Have you guys ever used Arnies FPS calc.?

 

Indoors you can use any bullet you desire ( 0.2 is of course cheaper )

Outdoors you should use a minimum of 0.25g because of the higher accuracy and stability and with the lower fps ( no advantage without disadvantage )

 

We tend to use 0.12 for extreme cqb under 10m. It's quite fun having the others still shoot 0.2 or even 0.25 with 1J at you when you are using 0.12g in a CO² Sigma

[Sale]

Why should a bullet fly further when using the same energy?

Been reading the thread, sports fan?

 

It's because a light object with the same surface area (6 mm sphere) will lose the momentum faster, because of air resistance.

 

-Sale

[Trasher]

The quality of the BB and a good hop-up unit is far more important than BB weights and theories. I used .25s for a long time, then switched to .20s. No great difference in performance and range, but .20s spend less time in the air, and less hop does the same job (less wear/tear?). Bush penetration is a little better with .25s, but who cares, since you have to fire longer bursts for a sure hit...

[Enforcer]

Been reading the thread, sports fan?

 

It's because a light object with the same surface area (6 mm sphere) will lose the momentum faster, because of air resistance.

 

-Sale

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Should have written it to the point. I was reffering to his argument of why a 0.25 flies further than a 0.2 with the same energy only because of a higher "momentum"?

[Glenn]

Should have written it to the point. I was reffering to his argument of why a 0.25 flies further than a 0.2 with the same energy only because of a higher "momentum"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Momentum is conserved. The only force acting on the BB in flight (besides gravity, but don't worry about that) is air resistance. Assuming all BBs experience the same force of drag, and it remains mostly constant, you get the following statement of linear momentum

 

MV (sometime later) = MV (at the muzzle) - FDrag * Flight Time

 

Clearly, if you start out with a higher momentum, you'll have a higher momentum later in your flight time. Becuase momentum (MV) is directly proportional to velocity, you'll have a higher velocity later in flight. This is good, becuase velocity is crucial to range.

 

This equation gets more complicated when you note that FDrag depends on velocity. So those fast moving light weight BBs experience MORE air resistance early in their flight than heavier BBs.

 

Consider this, too:

F=ma=FDrag

a=FDrag/m

If m is larger, a will go down. Meaning heavier BBs experience less acceleration due to air resistance. Keep in mind this is the bad kind of acceleration, the kind that slows you down.

 

I wrote a program for a shot peening simulator. Shot peening=BB gun. I had to track the trajectory, flight time, and impact energy of the shot. Impact energy was the most important factor, becuase it relates to the plastic deformation of the surface being shot peened. I know this stuff.

[Enforcer]

So i guess you have to throw Arnies's calculator over board as it shows wrong range values?

[davecymru]

This and the other BB weight vs Range vs "insert mathematical bits here" threads have had me intrigued for a while.

 

Now i'm not a dullard by any means, but i'm also not super hot with maths.

So when i got my sniper rifle i was still a bit unsure of the weight bb's to use and the whole heavier = better range argument just didn't seem logical to me despite seeing many obviously clever people on here proving it mathematically.

 

Also, the reason for this applied testing was that i was fed up being outgunned by the spray & pray brigade and was after the optimum range vs accuracy so that i could pick them off at just outside their range.

 

So with a stock l96 firing at forum limits (chronoed on the day of the tests) and bottles of .20, .25 and .30 HFC bbs i sat on a bench on the edge of the field at Black Ops Airsoft in Thornbury with a friend acting as a spotter and fired a couple of magazines of each weight round, adjusting the hop for each different weight to gain maximum flat trajectory.

 

My mate and myself noted how they were flying and where they ended up landing.

 

A few months later with the rifle firing at Black Ops sniper rifle limits (over forum limits) i ran the same tests again.

 

What we saw happening, in practice, was that .2 went further than .25 but were less accurate towards the end of their flight (as i'd expected).

Also .25 went further than .3 but once again were less accurate towards the end of their flight.

 

Now i know that the PURE maths quoted in this and other threads says different but in practice with other real-world factors applied, i.e. effect of hop spin, the wind etc... this was what we saw.

(please don't start a flame war on those factors i mention, i add them as "an idea" of other possible factors and not as only those that could apply)

 

Now i'm not adding this post to just say "narggh in your face" or any rubbish like that, but to stimulate this debate a bit and see if any of the mathmo types could explain what i've seen in practice over the last few years as compared to what i mathematically "should" have been seeing?

[Glenn]

This and the other BB weight vs Range vs "insert mathematical bits here"  threads have had me intrigued for a while.

 

Now i'm not a dullard by any means, but i'm also not super hot with maths.

So when i got my sniper rifle i was still a bit unsure of the weight bb's to use and the whole heavier = better range argument just didn't seem logical to me despite seeing many obviously clever people on here proving it mathematically.

 

Also, the reason for this applied testing was that i was fed up being outgunned by the spray & pray brigade and was after the optimum range vs accuracy so that i could pick them off at just outside their range.

 

So with a stock l96 firing at forum limits (chronoed on the day of the tests) and bottles of .20, .25 and .30 HFC bbs i sat on a bench on the edge of the field at Black Ops Airsoft in Thornbury with a friend acting as a spotter and fired a couple of magazines of each weight round, adjusting the hop for each different weight to gain maximum flat trajectory.

 

My mate and myself noted how they were flying and where they ended up landing.

 

A few months later with the rifle firing at Black Ops sniper rifle limits (over forum limits) i ran the same tests again.

 

What we saw happening, in practice, was that .2 went further than .25 but were less accurate towards the end of their flight (as i'd expected). 

Also .25 went further than .3 but once again were less accurate towards the end of their flight.

 

Now i know that the PURE maths quoted in this and other threads says different but in practice with other real-world factors applied, i.e. effect of hop spin, the wind etc... this was what we saw.

(please don't start a flame war on those factors i mention, i add them as "an idea" of other possible factors and not as only those that could apply)

 

Now i'm not adding this post to just say "narggh in your face" or any rubbish like that,  but to stimulate this debate a bit and see if any of the mathmo types could explain what i've seen in practice over the last few years as compared to what i mathematically "should" have been seeing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You saw what you saw, no doubt about it. When things like that happen, look at your BBs and hop. I hate HFC BBs, for one thing. If your hopup wasn't as ideal as you thought, that'll do it too.

 

One thing to think about is perhaps you were over hopping. If the lighter BBs where traveling further, but at the same time becoming noticably more incosistant further out, then too much hop could explain that quite easily.

 

For the same reason lighter bbs are more suseptable to drag factors, they are more easily affected by hop up. If you're adding too much hop, meaning enough to create the erratic flight patterns you described, then sure, .2s can go further than .25s

 

This doesn't violate any of the physics I've been talking about, becuase we've been assuming best possible hoping conditions. Clearly the heavier BBs are retaining their effectiveness further downrange, consistant with calculations and many posters observations.

 

I'd try different BBs, becuase I can't fathom sniping with HFCs, then I'd play with your hop. One thing is certain here: You're not doing the best you can. The best application of the math is to set an ideal. With better BBs, and optimum tuning, you can be assured .25s will give you more usable and more total range.

 

I'm going to try out the "more hop more range for lighter BBs" idea right now.

 

EDIT:

 

AND

If you mean this calculator, then yes, it is terribly inaccurate. As it says, it is purely a theory machine, ignoring a huge amount of physics. It performs a kinematics calculation, but we need kinetics here, because there is signifigant force involved in BB flight. Air resistance is a huge factor. Huge.

 

EDIT 2:

 

I just checked my too much hop theory, and it seems good.

 

With too little hop:

.2s edge out .25s, both enjoying accurate and cosistant flight paths.

 

With optimized hop for each weight:

.25s beat .2s. To get a sense of effective range, I did some long range plinking at a tree. At the maximum range that .25s hit the tree at chest height, .2s could not reach the tree at all, and were often curved to either the left or right to much to ever hit it, even if they had the range.

 

With too much hop:

I set the hop just north of perfect, to create a usable setting. The BBs flew well, until ther end of their flight path.

.2s beat .25s The .2s cruise way out, and then go a little crazy, usually whipping up and around a bit. The .25s were more stable, but at a lower max range.

 

The REALLY interesting part:

 

Using the same tree test, I found that over hopped .2s were almost impossible to hit the tree with at the range that .25s hit at chest height 10 out of 10 times. The lighter BBs were just wiggling around too much. So .25s retained a higher effective range, even though they hit the ground first.

 

Obviously, my firing 150 rounds is a weak experiment, but my observations were conistant with my ideas.

 

And, for the polite PMer who asked why I suggested too much hop and not too little, I know from practice that too much hop causes more inconsistancy/inaccuracy at the end of the flight.

[Skarclaw]

I compared my .25s with my .20s, I found that the .25 had slightly more range, but for the money, I play with .20