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wildstallion

The blind fire rule, Good or bad ?

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The only real purpose for the blind fire rule should be safety. Period.

 

Numerous posts on this topic have stated that the opposing team should be allowed time to retaliate or take cover from an attack. Why? Is not the point of the game to shoot others and not get shot? I would prefer that the opposing team not fire a single BB before they got out, and that is my intention in the very beginning of the game. I just make sure I'm legit about it.

 

Legit meaning I'm not sticking my gun around every corner and spraying down a room just in case someone in there. However, ironically, I do use "blind" senses. If I'm not sure about entering or passing by a room, I will listen real carefully for talking, hi-caps rattling, swing swivels moving, scuffling of feet, etc. If I do hear these things, I will stick my gun around the corner and to a swift, wall-to-wall burst. To me, blind means you don't know if something is there. I heard noises, I concluded that someone is in the room and since they are not out, I make it my duty to make sure they get out.

 

Blind firing is a result of two things: (1) fear and (2) ignorance. Nobody wants to get shot. It's not that it hurts or that it leaves marks, it's that you're out of the game. Most people like to play, not be sitting out waiting for the game to end. Tied into both, some of the time your opponent will know you are behind a wall. I've known before, and you can bet I put my red dot on the opening that they would pass through. However, what do you do if you're the player with the sights on you? Do you peak your head out? I'm sure as hell not going to.

 

Like some of you, during a game I like to be as stealthy as possible. I don't ever want my opponent to know where I am. Some people stated perhaps peaking around and yelling "Dead" or something; I don't dig that. I would prefer getting shot any day over someone coming from around a corner and telling me I'm out.

 

Learn to take pain. I had a buddy the other week not know my 1911 was loaded and popped me in the love handle from about 4" away. Sure, it hurt like hell and sure there is still a nice mark on my side, but nothing to pull my fists out over.

 

And yes, he did allow me to shoot him back from the same distance.

 

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the blind fire rule should never be applied outside of CQB. If you're dumb enough to get hit by someone blind firing in a woodland area, then you should really work on taking cover.

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The point is of course to ensure safety as you stated Shadowfox. And yes, we all expect to get shot or we wouldn't be playing.

 

However I'm afraid I'm obliged to disagree on some points. If by retaliation you are referring to the encouraging of individuals to prevent a blind-firing weapon from shooting them, then I would have to disagree. Safety should always be paramount: comments urging players to just grin and bear it (not when being fired at of course, that's just silly...) do little to help answer the issue.

 

I agree that blind firing comes from a fear of being hit and ignorance for other's safety, and also that I would prefer to be hit through whatever means than adopt a 'you're hit' system which would be ungovernable in a skirmish even if it were attempted. However, the point being made is that people shouldn't blind fire (which I refer to the act of pointing a gun around a corner / over a wall without looking at what I am shooting at) in cqb under any circumstances. Encouraging others to simply accept it when other players show a blatant disregard for their fellow players' safety isn't going to ultimately help anyone in the long run.

 

Anyway, please don't feel this is an attack on your beliefs, because I can see a great deal of sense in them. On this issue I simply have differing opinions. :)

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true, the point of airsoft is to shoot and be shot, but no-one likes idiots who behave as if they're the only person on the battlefield who's got any rights- if thats what you want, go play a first person shooter on the PC.

 

I was at SWAT a couple of years ago and there was a sniper clearly going for headshots with an upgraded bolt-action. His behaviour was flagrantly dangerous and he was acting with absolutely no regard for his fellow airsofter. He had no reason to go for headshots except to prove what a great shot he was, but all he managed to do was to prove himself to be a spiteful little turd.

 

I don't want to share a field with someone like that, because I tend to react quite badly to rules getting broken. For me, rules are there for the vast majority of times to protect everyone and keep everyone playing happily together. If these rules are broken, it defeats the entire purpose of gathering a bunch of people together for a friendly knockaround, and the person breaking it can expect a hicap to be emptied into them repeatedly until they say sorry.

 

I've often thought a nice thing would be to tool up the marshalls with aks with hicaps- everyone who puts other players at unnecessary risks gets shot-out by the marshalls, thus giving the marshalls some fun, and removing the bad player from the game, giving them a chance to reflect on their ways before returning to play hopefully a little less unpleasant and more compassionate to their fellow players.

 

thats how I'd run a site, anyhoo :)

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No offense taken, we're both entitled to our beliefs.

 

But as I stated, is not blind fire the result of someone not knowing if there are opponents around him? I do agree that blind firing in CQB should never occur if you do not know if there are opponents in the next room. However, if you do know that they are in fact in the room, explain to me why it is not legit to maintain your stealth and fire upon the room without them actually seeing you? For all you know there could be six of them sitting in there with Level 3 AEGs all pointed at the doorway. Do you really want to stick your head out with that in mind?

 

As for the sniper issue, I can only see that being OK under certain circumstances. I have played before where it takes two shots in areas outside of the head, neck, and heart. Oh yes, and the crouch; not because it might actually kill a person but because many don't wish to continue afterwards :lol:. Meaning if I was firing at someone, I was sure as hell going to make sure I aimed for the kill zone. And for most people, the head is the largest and easiest target to land a shot on.

 

I'm not saying players should learn to grin and bear the pain of some idiot blind firing in an unacceptable manner. But I am saying to just take the pain, whether emotional or physical, of someone being stealthy and getting the best of you.

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shadowfox- that idiot comment wasn't aimed at you, just so you know :) more at the people who flagrantly disregard the rules of a site!

 

differences between UK and US site rules seem to be one of the major areas of debate here- the vast majority of UK sites actively and rigorously discourage head shots of any kind at any range (though they are allowed). This is to minimise as much as possible the chances of a volley of bbs fired from an uprated gun hitting the eye protection and shattering it- yes, everyone should be wearing adequate protection, but flaws in manufacturing do occur, and the best idea is always to limit harm as much as possible.

 

UK rules also tend to state that all parts of the body and weapon are considered "kill zones"- this means that there really isn't any reason to go for head shots as the head is NOT the easiest part of a person to target- the torso is. Most sites operate a one hit you're dead policy, meaning that so long as the shot lands, thats all that counts, not where.

 

Obviously where you play, things are different, and in such circumstances I might be tempted to opt for a headshot. But that also rails against what I personally consider to be "safe" and honourable airsofting.

 

I don't work on the assumption (and I'm not saying you do either Shadowfox, this is more as an eg), if I'm sharp-shooitng, that if I take someones eye out because they have worn either inadequate eye protection or I damage some other exposed and vulnerable part of the body, such as an eardrum or nostril, that this is not my fault. As the marksman, it is my responsibility where I aim, and my responsibility that the person I aim at is going to be as safe as can be expected. If this means I have to take riskier shots that may not guarantee an instant kill, then so be it- I play airsoft as a game, and the last thing I want when playing a game is to hurt anyone, especially not for the sake of spending a bit more time aiming.

 

obviously this thread is (as always) veering well and truly off topic, but heyho!

 

As to the BF rule- yes, perhaps if I know there are opponents in a room, this is not technically blindfiring- partially-sighted perhaps?

 

either way, the concerns remain- I prefer, on entering a room, to draw a lower-rated weapon, such as a gas shotgun loaded with .12g, or a semi auto pistol before engaging- yes, this makes me more vulnerable, but for me, half the fun is doing things the hard way :)

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i somewhat agree with megalomaniac on this one. blind firing on full auto should be against the rules, but as long as the barrel is point at a flat or downward angle, u should be able to to a couple of semi auto shots. as for BF being cheating, u are just being stupid. if u can turn ur gun around a corner and hit some1, then they could too. my only problem with this is safety, b/c it does suck to get shot in the face from 1 foot away

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i think blindfire really depends on what you're doing..... out of the 3 pages here, everyone seems to be "turning a corner" obviously CQB, as there are no corners out in the woods. if you're playing in the woods, and there are built up structures you can shoot out of, i'd say blind fire is alowed, simply because you're not going to hit anything in the woods. as per the CQB situation above, you should be required to look before shooting, just so the person getting shot at has a chance to notice your big head and take shots at it.

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blind fire (which I refer to the act of pointing a gun around a corner / over a wall without looking at what I am shooting at)

 

There you go co-op ;) There's also the example I gave in my initial posts about shooting over a bush I was behind in the heat of the moment to surpress an enemy position. :P

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Being an american and playing generally with higher FPS than you guys, i dont see what all the fuss is, ive been hit by moscorts using green point blank and American upgraded guins ( ;) ) point blank, and yeah, ive been messed up but only bruises and a tad of bleeding every once in a while, if you are afraid of the BB, i think you are in th wrong sport

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Blindfire in woodland is fine by me. CQB could get a little messy though.

 

At Alpha when someone is in the "houses" you can see through the walls and shoot through the windows. No one is allowed to come to the hut and fire in, you have to surrender same as if someone sticks their head into a window when you are inside

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earlier, there was a comment about how someone thought it acceptable to blind-fire to suppress a sniper "because he had a distinct advantage". As a former sniper, i must say that i disagree there. a sniper is at such a great disadvantage at all other times in the game, hampered by range restrictions and rate-of-fire.

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banzai-

 

the issue isn't that we are afraid of being hit by bbs, the issue, as I have pointed out, is one of fairplay and honour- if you choose to spray someone in the face with an AEG at point blank range, that is your business. similarly, if you don't mind being on the receiving end of this sort of treatment, that also is your business.

 

However, it simply "isn't cricket" to behave in these ways. Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean everyone who plays feels the same way. I don't mind running across the road in front of moving traffic, but I'd not expect or demand all my fellow pedestrians to behave in the same way.

 

Its a question of getting as many people as possible to have as much fun as possible without having to send anyone home in the back of an ambulance. If this means certain behaviour, albeit perfectly aceptable to some but not necessarily to all, is curtailed, such as BFing, or deliberate headshots, then thats all to the good.

 

sure, if you WANT to play at a site that doesn't impose such namby-pamby rules, then I'm sure there are plenty out there. For those that want to participate in a fun sport with the minimum of risk of even minor injury, then there's all the rest.

 

Longhairedhippy-

 

I believe those were my comments you're referring to. What I mean is that a pinned AEGer, stuck in a bush somewhere with a sniper zeroed in on his position, possibly with little or no knowledge of exactly where the sniper is situated, should be allowed to BF (unless dangerous to do so- ie other players crossing his path), rather than be forced to poke his head up before or at the same time as returning fire.

 

The sniper has the advantage of power, accuracy, and to a degree range and surprise. More often than not a sniper is also well hidden, and has his crosshairs on his target, unlike the aeger, who in such crcumstances is usually at the disadvantage of not knowing exactly where the sniper is.

 

obviously, the sniper lacks ROF, but his advantages far outway his disadvantages in this situation (I've sniped in the past and been amazed how a carefully picked position and a spot of careful, patient fire can make even the most disciplined AEGer turn paranoid :) ). As such, an AEGer should be allowed the option, in woodland skirmishes, to return fire simply by BFing, either to draw fire and ascertain the direction of shot, or to suppress the sniper, giving the AEGer time to withdraw.

 

The AEGers only other option is to trust to luck and either hope that the sniper will miss him first time round while revealing his position, allowing him to return aimed fire, or leg it and hope the sniper's no good at getting moving targets, neither of which are particularly attractive options

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well, i think you all make very good arguments about this. personally, i say blind-fire away. when i play with my friends, we pretty much don't care about getting shot in the face or what. we all wear goggles or masks, and sure it hurts, but it's part of the game. i will now point out that we normally use GBB pistols, so it's not as intense as getting an AK burst to the face.

 

i can see why most people wouldn't want to get shot at close-quarters by an upgraded AEG, and i can sympathize as well. but when it comes down to it, i play the game to get the other person, and not get got myself. this means using unfair advantages such as pocking my gun round a corner, or chasing the other people down with a car (yes, once we played a game in which we bombed around the field in my friends jeep to find the other team). i'd like to think we're more "hard core" than others, but that's really not the correct term. we just don't mind getting shot, is all. though if we all start using high powered rifles, that may change.

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As to the BF rule- yes, perhaps if I know there are opponents in a room, this is not

technically blindfiring- partially-sighted perhaps?

 

Well, it is blindfiring. You can't see what you are shooting at, but you know it's there. Ironically you typically use your hearing sense, like blind people do, to listen for movement, talking, rattling, etc. I feel it's OK if you blindfire on a positive target, whether you can see him/them or not.

 

Think about it if you had this rule:

 

... you should be required to look before shooting, just so the person getting shot at has a chance to notice your big head and take shots at it.

 

Why? Someone please explain to me why it should be a rule that if know someone is there, you still have to stick your head? For all you know there could either be a couple guys with Desert Eagle E.B.B.s or it could be some guys with 1J power based ICS M4 C-15s :). Me, having a rather large head, would not like to have to stick out my head; especially after the efforts of not being known of.

 

If you didn't know someone was there, however, that might a little different. All comes back to the trust issue...

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Hairy, what the hell does that post mean? I know its not offensive or anything, its just confused me :(

I do that a lot, unfortunately <_<

 

Basically - if you're approaching a blind corner, then you will instinctively crouch down (try sneaking up on your toaster - the principle's the same :lol: . Trust me - try it!)

 

On the other hand, your opponant is "standing tall", leans round, and blind-fires right into your nose :o

 

or mouth.

 

Or eyes.

 

Or cheeks.

 

(I'm guessing that y'all are getting the picture..)

 

Incidentally, I've never played CQB - the comments all concern building-taking in woodland (and, yes, I know that it is CQB, but let's stop getting hung-up on site definitions :P )

 

On the "low fps = wimp" thing": would you rather, given a choice, be repeatedly hit around the head with a baseball bat, or someone just say "bang" in your ear? No, really.. ;)

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Screw it, in a real war, like in Iraq, the Iraqi's point they're guns over walls and round corners, and I'm sure some yanks do the same too. So, I'm all for being allowed to fire arround the corners and blind fire.

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Blind firing is such because you are firing blind. Even if you know that a target is there and are firing with the intention of scoring a hit, your fire is unguided by sight - you're guessing where you're firing. As such this is both irresponsible and unsafe.

 

I accept that some people would place staying in the game a higher priority over the risk of harming another person by shooting them in an unprotected sensitive area such as the face or neck. But this isn't a real combat situation, no matter however closely in other ways we attempt to emulate it to be.

 

The safety of players should always be - and typically is- the top priority of a skirmish site. The last thing this sport needs is bad press as a result of injuries from irresponsible fire. As such I believe the fire rule is valid in CQB. Woodland however, is more of a grey area. If it is forbidden however, I will respect and abide by that rule.

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but, if you wear a mask, you're at no danger. I can take AEG fire from 2 feet away, why can't everyone else? I don't condone firing around corners, unguided, but, sometimes people do what they have to, and it isn't dangerous, as long as you're wearing protection.

 

So I guess the only reaon I wouldn't allow it is the, "cheating," but, it's only dangerous if the people you're playing with aren't wearing face protection (which if that's the case, you shouldn't even be playing CQB)

 

Also, if getting shot at in general is safe, why isn't getting shot at by someone not seeing you?

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It may be different where you skirmish Thomme, but few people use masks where I've been - in fact I've been the only one. This may differ depending on the sort of site where you play at (perhaps such as half paintball / airsoft sites where insurance demands usage of masks at all times), but in the UK it seems to be more the majority who play without full face protection. As a result I feel the importance of safety is a crucial issue in deciding skirmish site policy :)

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but, if you wear a mask, you're at no danger.  I can take AEG fire from 2 feet away, why can't everyone else?

You might not feel that way if you took a BB in the ear or up your nose.

 

Seriously, from the safety POV, blind firing is irresponsible. From a tactical POV it's indecisive and wasteful.

 

Regardsing woodland, I think there's a difference between suppressing fire and blind fire.

My definition of suppressing fire would be knowing that the an opposing player is hidden behind a tree shrouded in bushes, for example, and laying down fire at the tree while other members of my team begin to flank. It'd be short bursts aimed at the tree. There's the slight possibility that the opposing player could poke his head out at the wrong moment and get hit in the face but the odds are much higher because I can see him and stop shooting.

By contrast, blind fire would be a similar situation with me cowering behind a log, hosing over the top of it at random. To be honest, in that sitaution, I suspect the opposing player would simply walk up to me, outside my arc of fire, and zap me. There's always the chance that somebody could stick their head up in between us and receive a face-full of BBs. You, basically, are not in control of a potentially dangerous item.

 

The cheating aspect of it is much harder to define accurately. In the same way that a football team could all stand in a row, in the goal-mouth, and not allow the opposition to score, a team of airsofters could quite easily defend a flag by blind-firing for the duration of a game. It's obviously not a fun thing to do but there would always be the option for a losing team to fall back on this tactic.

By enforcing a blind-fire rule a site ensures that players actually confront each other in a sporting manner. This, obviously, ensures that more people actually ENJOY their day rather than simply getting frustrated at the thought of charging into a perpetual BB stream every time they get within 20 yards of the enemy flag.

 

That can happen too. I've been in (paintball) games where we'd be winning and the opposition would retreat to their base and defend for the duration of the game. If we retreated they wouldn't follow. They just hoped that they could defend well enough to win by attrition.

Now, I dunno if Shadowfox and co think this is a valid tactic but I sure as hell don't think it's a fun way to spend an hour.

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well quite- and my point, asasaid above, is that airsoft, like all sports (at least the ones that don't involve agents, sponsorship deals, and steroids) is essentially about getting as many people as possible to have as much fun as possible, without it degenerating into a fist fight (unless its an amateur boxing match, then fist fights are ok)

 

I personally play to play, not to win. obviously I don't play to lose (well, ok, occasionally I have been known to commit suicide while charging an insurmountably large amount of guys, all armed with AEGs and hicaps, while all I have is a spas12 and a huge list of insults :) ).

 

essentially, i play airsoft to emulate war as it should be, rather than war as it is. Yes, people blindfire in real wars, of course they do, they'd be mad to stick their head up in the middle of a firefight and get it blown off, but this is airsoft. No-ones going to have their head blown off, though they might get their lights punched out if they behave irresponsibly. In the same way that I strive to honour all hits whether I'm certain they've hit me or not, so I strive to play in a way that is fair and good. I don't play to cause pain, and if I do, I like to check that the guy is ok, and if necessary call myself out so I can help.

 

god, doesn't all this do-gooding namby-pamby hero stuff make you wanna puke?

 

essentially, the way the Uk plays airsoft sounds very different to how certain parts of the US play. I shall enjoy experiencing it first-hand at TOLCOM sometime in the spring :)

 

though I reserve the right to do the usual british thing of calling someone a f***ing W***er if they shoot me point blank. They may even get a slap :)

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