Sale Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 (V)atrix: Well, Aimpoints don't use laser elements and they are also very popular with people who know their business. You'd think they would have added a green dot based on user feedback if it was actually necessary. Green LEDs have been around for ages so they could easily have done it by now. So far I have only seen cheap red dot sights with this feature. I haven't had any trouble with my EOTech no matter how bright a day it was outside. You do know it's dangerous to look directly into the sun? Of course if any major military optics manufacturer comes out with a model with a green reticle, I might need to take my words back. -Sale Link to post Share on other sites
(V)atrix Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 (V)atrix: Well, Aimpoints don't use laser elements and they are also very popular with people who know their business. You'd think they would have added a green dot based on user feedback if it was actually necessary. Green LEDs have been around for ages so they could easily have done it by now. So far I have only seen cheap red dot sights with this feature. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> True - but tradition is a hard thing to fight. For as long as there have been illuminated recticles, it was assumed that red was the best color for it. Remember, illuminated recticles came about in the same era as red fire trucks, police lights, and life jackets... At the time, it was just assumed that red was the most visible colour. But, as we learn more about human eye-sight, we realize the human eye is actually fairly bad at picking up red colours. Now, fire trucks are almost universally yellow or yellowish-green, life jackets are bright yellow or orange, and police lights are blue... So, just because something has always been that way, doesn't mean it's the best way... And Trijicon has been using amber and orange recticles for quite awhile now, precisely because red is one of the least visible colours to the human eye. Those colours are more visible to the human eye in daylight, but are still subdued enough, to the human eye, for use in low-light situations. (In low-no light situations, green can actually appear too bright for use in an optic - thus the reason I say it'd be good for use in a day-light holosight, where an IR NV mode was likely to be used for night shooting). I haven't had any trouble with my EOTech no matter how bright a day it was outside. You do know it's dangerous to look directly into the sun? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So that's what I've been doing wrong all this time... I thought by "light chrono" they meant aim at the sun, and if you lose sight of the BB before you go blind then your gun's shooting hot! Just curious, have you ever used it in a desert environment? That's the type of environment I usually shoot in, and trust me, the red recticle does wash out in bright desert sun, especially on light-colored backgrounds. Desert sand and rock reflect a metric sh*t-load of light. Don't get me wrong - I love my EOTech... Next to my ACOG it the best sight I've ever owned... But it's not perfect, and the red recticle is one of the things I would gladly change about it. Link to post Share on other sites
nightfire6 Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 I think I will wait and see if someone makes a cheap, but good eotech replica like G&P or king arms. Link to post Share on other sites
IronWolf Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 I think I will wait and see if someone makes a cheap, but good eotech replica like G&P or king arms. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, i'd imagine this has opened the floodgates and I wouldn't be at all surprised if other companies "coincidentally" also came out with EoTech replicas in the near future. Link to post Share on other sites
Sale Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 True - but tradition is a hard thing to fight. But, as we learn more about human eye-sight, we realize the human eye is actually fairly bad at picking up red colours. Now, fire trucks are almost universally yellow or yellowish-green, life jackets are bright yellow or orange, and police lights are blue... So, just because something has always been that way, doesn't mean it's the best way... Just curious, have you ever used it in a desert environment? That's the type of environment I usually shoot in, and trust me, the red recticle does wash out in bright desert sun, especially on light-colored backgrounds. Desert sand and rock reflect a metric sh*t-load of light. Don't get me wrong - I love my EOTech... Next to my ACOG it the best sight I've ever owned... But it's not perfect, and the red recticle is one of the things I would gladly change about it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nice to see that there still can exist a proper debate about EOTechs on an airsoft forum. What I doubt about these green reticles is that the cheapo sights had them first. You'd think companies like Aimpoint and EOTech invest in the R&D, get user feedback and change their products. Others would follow. Well, maybe this is the exception that confirms the rule. We'll just have to see about that, but if I'm right I'm not going to have a party about me being right. Lasermax developed the blinking laser, which is (according to them) easier to find and put on target. Also some cars (where legal) have brake lights that start blinking in a sudden emergency stop. Well there's an obvious reason for not having green brake lights, but so far I've seen these green lasers and reticles in AvP and cheap sights. Hence my sceptisism. I have used the EOTech in bright sunlight and the terrain isn't always optimal, but as there are no real deserts in Finland... Well. I can't dig out my eyeballs and switch to yours so I won't say how you should see things. If you miss a green reticle because the red one sometimes washes out, I believe it's your honest perception of the sight, not marketing hype that has got a hold of you. -Sale Link to post Share on other sites
(V)atrix Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Nice to see that there still can exist a proper debate about EOTechs on an airsoft forum. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, despite my fair knowledge and experience with toy guns, I've spent even more time playing with the real things What I doubt about these green reticles is that the cheapo sights had them first. You'd think companies like Aimpoint and EOTech invest in the R&D, get user feedback and change their products. Others would follow. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh... You mean like, several years ago, before most people even knew green laser diodes existed. Back when SureFire pioneered the industry by providing one of the first practical applications for the newly developed diodes - by producing and marketing a day-light visible green laser sight? Or, like when BeamShot followed suit? Unfortunately, the sky-high price, combined with the initial limitation of sale to only .mil/LEO customers, doomed it to the status of unobtanium. Because of the low sales numbers and high cost of production SF eventually dropped it from their product line. Well, maybe this is the exception that confirms the rule. We'll just have to see about that, but if I'm right I'm not going to have a party about me being right. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nor will I... As I'll be too busy trying to figure out how to justify to the missuz why I'm ordering yet another high dollar weapon optic Lasermax developed the blinking laser, which is (according to them) easier to find and put on target. Also some cars (where legal) have brake lights that start blinking in a sudden emergency stop. Well there's an obvious reason for not having green brake lights, but so far I've seen these green lasers and reticles in AvP and cheap sights. Hence my sceptisism. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Like I said earlier... The green laser diodes are relatively new and still fairly pricey. Only in the past year or so have green lasers even reached a price level where most mere mortals can own one. Before this, only Hollywood studios and SOCOM have had deep enough pockets to actually be able to aquire them. Despite the decrease in price, any product that uses a green laser is still significantly more expensive than a comparable product using a red laser diode. For example, it's quite common to find a red laser pointer for around $10-15 USD in most stores, while the exact same pointer, with a green diode, will cost upwards of $70-80 USD. But... it wasn't that long ago (early '90s) that I remember having to spend almost $100 for a basic red laser pointer - so I've no doubt that the price will continue to decrease, eventually becoming quite affordable. When that happens, I'm sure you'll be seeing a lot more weapons mounted green lasers (local laws permitting). Well. I can't dig out my eyeballs and switch to yours so I won't say how you should see things. If you miss a green reticle because the red one sometimes washes out, I believe it's your honest perception of the sight, not marketing hype that has got a hold of you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, I appreciate the benefit of doubt, though I'm very curious... What marketing hype have you seen that might influence me? Until now I've been relying on basic science, a few technology market trends, and a little personal knowledge gleened from various weapons and industry sources... Might be nice to have some fancy smancy marketing BS to bolster my arguments Link to post Share on other sites
Sale Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 You got stuck to the "laser"-thing. I tried to question the concept of having a green reticle, regardless of technology. Regular red dots use a LED to project the dot. Green leds are as cheap as red ones, and have been around for decades. I first saw the option of a green reticle over 7 years ago when I got more serious with airsofting. It was a cheap Norconia red dot sight, and I've never seen that option in a high quality red dot. It's not exactly marketing hype, but AvP has started a trend that everybody wants a green laser. I brought one to an army mate of mine from Hong Kong because he asked me to look for one. Another mate of mine had a green laser before that and while it was cool, it just didn't seem practical. (Both were bolted on realsteel weapons.) A green laser produces a visible beam more easily than a red laser sight so it looks cool, better in movies. After trying both, I'd still choose a red laser sight for my gun. As for realsteel experience... I'm a shooter too and have two years of military service behind me. This is a pic from yesterday, sighting in the EOTech for new ammunition (different bullet and different load) that I'm trying out on saturday in a 3-gun competition: http://mave.dyndns.org/~mave/ammuskelua/ko...at_holoilee.jpg -Sale Link to post Share on other sites
(V)atrix Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 You got stuck to the "laser"-thing. I tried to question the concept of having a green reticle, regardless of technology. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry - was focusing on green lasers due my belief that the main discusion we were having was about the usefulness of a green recticle on a holosight... I don't know if green LEDs would or wouldn't be better for other illuminated sights. Scientifically, one would think so, since green is more visable than red - but since most cheap green LEDs are the result of light being filtered through green plastic, rather than a green light source, who knows what effect that has on the level of light transmission or the wavelength of the light. (Well, I'm sure someone does, but that someone's not me ). Also, newer, high out-put LEDs often are close, but not pure, in color... Thus the reason "white" LEDs are a lot 'cooler' than "white" incandescent lights. I don't know what the actual light properties of a "green" LED are. It's not exactly marketing hype, but AvP has started a trend that everybody wants a green laser. I brought one to an army mate of mine from Hong Kong because he asked me to look for one. Another mate of mine had a green laser before that and while it was cool, it just didn't seem practical. (Both were bolted on realsteel weapons.) A green laser produces a visible beam more easily than a red laser sight so it looks cool, better in movies. After trying both, I'd still choose a red laser sight for my gun. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Interesting choice. And, I know what you mean about the Hollywood wannabe trends... I tend to try to keep my personal evaluations based on what works rather than what is the cool new toy of the month. Also having tried both green and red weapon mounted lasers, I think each has their place... I don't like how green lasers act as a pointer to your location in low-no light settings, but find them vastly superior to red lasers in other lighting conditions. As for realsteel experience... I'm a shooter too and have two years of military service behind me. This is a pic from yesterday, sighting in the EOTech for new ammunition (different bullet and different load) that I'm trying out on saturday in a 3-gun competition: http://mave.dyndns.org/~mave/ammuskelua/ko...at_holoilee.jpg <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hope you didn't take my comment as an implication that you lacked real-steel experience... Was simply stating that real-steel is my stonger area of both experience and interest, so I tend to make a lot of cross-the-board comparisons between the two. Thus the reason we can have a good debate about real EOTechs on an airsoft board. Awesome picture... Is that a 552 or 512? And what make is the AR? My guess would be Armalite, based on the green furniture and the votex-style flash-hider - but both those things are pretty easily changed on any AR, so... [Edited for typos] Link to post Share on other sites
LoneWolf Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 Dear lord, is nothing sacred anymore? now I gotta buy a 553.... -Mike ™ Link to post Share on other sites
Sale Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 most cheap green LEDs are the result of light being filtered through green plastic, rather than a green light source You must know something I don't. I know for a fact that red LEDs are available with completely clear housings, and it's the wavelength of the Light Emitting Diode that causes the color. Isn't this the case for green, blue, yellow and white LEDs? Now that I think of it, I've also seen a LED that has a clear plastic housing, and it's dual color (red or green) according to what signal is given to its three legs. I'm positive that the tinted color of the plastic is there only to indicate what color the LED will be when it's lit. Hope you didn't take my comment as an implication that you lacked real-steel experience... Awesome picture... Is that a 552 or 512? And what make is the AR? My guess would be Armalite, based on the green furniture and the votex-style flash-hider - but both those things are pretty easily changed on any AR, so... No, I didn't take the comment as an understatement. I'm just so boyish that I like to bring up realsteel experience on airsoft boards whenever someone gives me an excuse. It's a 512 because I don't find the NV-option useful. I used to have a pretty advanced NV sight for my rifle in Kosovo on a peacekeeping mission, and I played around with the EOTech to test the holosight with NV equipment. Since the NV sight already had a reticle, the EOTech wasn't absolutely necessary, but like I said, I was only testing. Should the NV sight have lacked a reticle, the most sensible way to use the optics together was the NV over my left eye while looking at the EOTech reticle with my right eye. But the dim settings of the non-NV EOTech 512 worked well enough with the NV device behind the holosight too. The AR-15 I built myself from components. The complete upper and telestock is from a Colt LE Carbine (16") with an M16 bolt carrier. Like you suspected, I switched the flash hider from the standard A2 to a Vortex and kryloned the plastics. I also have a suppressor for it. Those are free from any legislation in Finland. The complete lower (minus stock) is from American Spirit Arms. The rifle measures a total of 80 cm without a flash hider on the barrel and stock retracted, so it had to be registered as "any other weapon". Now that it has the status, I can switch the barrel to how short I please, because it's already shorter than the definition of a rifle (minimum 84 cm total length AND 40 cm barrel length). -Sale Link to post Share on other sites
3vi1-D4n Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Out of personal opinion: Mild green dot sights are more soothing at night to look at rather than red. Sure red lights doesn't affect night vision, but green doesn't affect it much either. However in the bush, green dots are not very easy to pick out while red generally works for most backgrounds aside from bright days. Green tends to work well on bright days. Link to post Share on other sites
Titleist Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Dear lord, is nothing sacred anymore? now I gotta buy a 553.... -Mike ™ <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not even getting involved in this one, you kids can fight it out. I agree I'm gonna get a 553 when the VFC SCAR comes out. Only reason I'd own one of those sights... I'm gonna go back to cradling my REAL Eotech, "it's alright, daddy will protect you!" Link to post Share on other sites
Magsz Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 The monetary airsoft e-peen saga of doom continues... MY WALLETS BIGGER THAN YOURS!!! Link to post Share on other sites
eel one [COE] Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Well, with most poeple saing stay away from the replica, should one get an EOtech or a Bushnell Holosight, in order to get the best, not only for airsoft use but also for hunting? Link to post Share on other sites
Magsz Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Eotech. The bushnells arent as durable. Link to post Share on other sites
Titleist Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Eotech. The bushnells arent as durable. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd still like to see how much the hood actually adds strength to the EO, but you're right. And frankly it doesn't look quite as cool. As vain as that sounds. Link to post Share on other sites
Magsz Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 The eotech hood does just what its supposed to. It acts as a shield. It prevents your optics from getting scratched to *beep* should you rub the gun against something. Think about it, if you rub the unshielded top of a bushnell halosite against concrete what do you think is going to happen? Conversely, if you rub the hood of a shielded eotech against a wall, you're going to come away with alot less damage to the actual unit. Link to post Share on other sites
chillindrdude Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 I'm gonna go back to cradling my REAL Eotech, "it's alright, daddy will protect you!" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you have got a serious airsoft addiction there... and for the record, i plan on having the 1st VFC SCAR before Titleist Link to post Share on other sites
Aod Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 i just feel that i should mention that there is no such thing as a green laser Diode. green LEDs, yes, lasers, no. the now-common green lasers are produced using a 808nm IR laser diode shone through a variety of bits and bobs which reduce the frequency to around 425nm Link to post Share on other sites
Cali Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 ORLY?!! So, is it possible with some work to remove the 'bits and bobs' to convert one to an IR laser? Link to post Share on other sites
Carbine Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Redwolf now has these for 178USD. They're also, apparently falsely, advertising it as an actual holosight. Link to post Share on other sites
Titleist Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 you have got a serious airsoft addiction there... and for the record, i plan on having the 1st VFC SCAR before Titleist <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That sounds like a challenge, do you really want to go toe to toe with me on a battle of the credit cards? TWO MEN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVES...with a lot of credit card debt! Link to post Share on other sites
Lithium Jack Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 That sounds like a challenge, do you really want to go toe to toe with me on a battle of the credit cards? TWO MEN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVES...with a lot of credit card debt! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> IT'S TIME TO DUEL I think I'll probably fork out for a real EOtech. Partly for bragging rights, partly for the fact that it's still the only holo-sight available (apart from the bushnell) and the resale value isn't something to be sniffed at. Link to post Share on other sites
Tunershark Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 i will have the first SCAR, ill bet you 3$ Link to post Share on other sites
clmwrx Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Beautiful full metal holographic sight is a replica of the popular military EO-tech sight. This sight is digitally adjusted and can be set to either red of green sights. Key features include: - Red & Green dot color changeable (digitally). - 20 level brightness adjustment. - Low power indicator. - 2 hours auto shut down. - UV tempered lens. - Moisture Resistant design. - Battery: LR44 Alkaline button cell x 4. - Full metal construction Far from standard red dot in my eyes... Link to post Share on other sites
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