VinnyGT19 Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 This post documents the trouble I've been having with Arnie's member Flea At the beginning of this month, I made a post offering my Tanaka M24 for trade: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...topic=67234&hl= I had decided that the rifle was great, but I had moral qualms about shooting another human being with a rifle that would launch a .36 gram BB with enough grunt, and enough retained kinetic energy to dent a mailbox at 100 feet. I was looking to get another AEG so I could bring more of my friends to the public skirmish sites in Georgia. Flea contacted me by PM shortly thereafter to solicit a trade for a rifle he had for sale in a separate post: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...showtopic=68162 He offered his 'M15a4 Carbine Setup' from that post for my Tanaka M24 setup from my post. I asked him the history of the gun, to which he replied: "..its been an M15 from the beginning which wasnt all that long ago. Just bought a lot of internal upgrades and man was it worth it, the one game ive played with it I was amazed. " I even went so far as to PM him the link to the G&P Blackwater receiver set on WGC to confirm that it was the receiver on the rifle. He had painted the rifle which was OK by me; I was looking for a solid M4 that I could Krylon-up for woodland games, and I didn't feel bad painting a rifle that was already painted. I felt that the deal was an even trade as I was *told I was* getting solid Classic Army/G&P externals, along with a knockoff ACOG copy. I requested that we exchange full contact information, and ship at the same time, with tracking and insurance so that there wouldn't be any issue of 'oh it's in the mail already.' He agreed. I have been playing since the early days of Airsoftplayers.com, and trading over the internet for 6+ years now, and not once have I been burned as I am very cautious. I packed the M24 in all of its original packaging, including the original bags that were in the Tanaka carton, and included all of the original hop up components left over from the BestGun conversion. The package was further insulated with styrofoam packing peanuts, the box closed with packagin tape, then brown shipping paper wrapped around the outside of the package. I shipped it on July 7th via UPS with tracking and insurance for $400. Flea sent PM's stating that he would "try to ship tomorrow" several times, first stating that he had to find a box big enough, he didn't have the money to send it now, and then finally, he PM'ed me on July 16th to tell me that he didn't have my address (when we had exchanged contact info in the first few PM's). However in the interim of all of that, he PM'ed me (july 8th) to state that he was looking forward to getting the M24, and had bought a scope for it, pictured here in a picture he sent to me (notice that it's on the M15a4 he's trading to me, and that the barrel has been bent downwards by the large scope frontend/sunshade): I immediately contacted him over AOL to try and determine what the hell it was that he had done to the rifle. I also contacted UPS to try to recall my M24 as it was still in transit, and they said that it couldn't be done. I told Spencer that I would send him return postage and $5 for his time to return the M24 to me. He said that he wanted to correct the situation, as in this AOL instant messenger conversation (July 8th, 1:16 a.m.): SCP SuperRef: the barrel is not bent do not worry i even just checked because im a honest person and tell ya whatever i know. I hate the people that rip people off. Its disrespectful and puts a person in a bad situation. VinnyGT19: Well the issue of the marui barrel is unresolved. It has been difficult to get a straight answer of what is or is not in the gun/the history of the gun. Please explain the history of the gun. VinnyGT19: Ok well I appreciate that, I would liek to work this out given that mine is already in the mail and you are looking forward to the M24. SCP SuperRef: alright, so I got this gun from a friend that always buys a gun on average like every month... SCP SuperRef: so he says hes selling this one SCP SuperRef: im like awsome SCP SuperRef: so i try out the assault role SCP SuperRef: played once SCP SuperRef: u already know this SCP SuperRef: anyway SCP SuperRef: about the gun SCP SuperRef: does CA do three pieces at all? Because I know the RIS is CA, and the tightbore is systema. SCP SuperRef: my friend that i bought this from SCP SuperRef: said to me VinnyGT19: Nope, a three piece is a Marui or one of the marui copies. SCP SuperRef: it was a 3 piece barrel that he had replaced it with VinnyGT19: (ie. the AIM one, etc) SCP SuperRef: if CA doesnt make one it has to be a TM outer barrel, because my friend never buys like SCP SuperRef: ###### stuff SCP SuperRef: i mean all of his gear and guns SCP SuperRef: are TOP NOTCH SCP SuperRef: all of his gear is real issue SCP SuperRef: guns are as upgraded as can be VinnyGT19: Ok, so there's a marui outer barrel, systema inner, a CA RIS, a G&P Blackwater receiver that is painted? or is not? It's in the picture with the M16 full length barrel -- is that before it was painted? SCP SuperRef: yes it is painted, and that picture is prior to painting SCP SuperRef: its kind of insurance that its a blackwater i guess SCP SuperRef: since u cans ee the trademarks and such VinnyGT19: ok, well is the hop unit G&P as well? SCP SuperRef: CA one piece VinnyGT19: type of gearbox/motor? SCP SuperRef: Systema 6.04 tightbore barrel, a CA metal one-piece hopup, Guarder SP110 spring, Guarder V2 steel bushings, Guarder M4/M16 air seal nozzle, Area 1000 Ver2 cylinder head, Area 1000 Ver2 spring guide, replaced selector plate, and a Systema Long motor, the rest of the internals are stock. VinnyGT19: ok, and the ACOG is clean? optics are working? no paint on the glass? SCP SuperRef: no paint on the glass, ill even clean the glass before i ship make sure everything is in working order VinnyGT19: Ok, well please do. SCP SuperRef: if anything is wrong, tell me..and i will be wiling to make payments as long as there is picture proof SCP SuperRef: i dont want you to be like..oh i need a new RIS and i have to throw $100 because u want a new one SCP SuperRef: u know VinnyGT19: yes I understand, I will not make any ridiculous claims, I just wanted to know what exactly it is that I am getting. SCP SuperRef: i dont want a bad record on my reputation. and im a well known member of ASC, trying to keep my good repuatation at arnies, so i can make easy trades and sales. I mean, i work for a airsoft company. and im a sales representative, so i constantly need to make sure the customer gets what he or she really wants SCP SuperRef: if the rifle isnt exactly what you imagined, please by all means tell me. and ill do my best to make it what u imagined VinnyGT19: Ok, well thank you for answering these questions. I'll be looking forward to getting it in the mail. By the way, the tracking number for the M24 won't be active until the box is scanned at the distribution center, I shipped it from OfficeMax. Let me know if there is any further problem. SCP SuperRef: alright ill let you know, if you have any questions feel free to give me a call. I may be working, but i answer most calls VinnyGT19: Ok, thank you. SCP SuperRef: sure thing When the rifle finally arrived at my house (July 26th, nearly three weeks after we had agreed to ship, and with no tracking number provided on his part), it arrived in the same box that I had used to ship the M24 to him, sans the packing peanuts or anything that might have lent some support in transit. The rifle had a few glaring problems immediately evident: The front end is bent, the grip has been broken off and glued back together, and whoever installed the gearbox internals didn't time the tappet plate right, and the gun double feeds every pull in semi (the nozzle remains retracted when the gun is not firing, allowing 2 bb's into the chamber, and the nozzle moves forward at the beginning of the cycle, instead of retracting at the end of a cycle). Bent barrel: Grip is FUBAR'ed: Upon inspection, I can't find ANY Classic Army parts, so I can't see how this gun was ever a 'M15a4,' and the receiver is metal, but neither G&P nor is it 'Blackwater,' meaning that there was very little correct information in his original post and further correspondence. The RIS is a Marui unit that has had all of the internal contact points removed, and is only held together by the delta spring (read: not very well). I would delve into the mysterious internals of this hooptie if the receiver pin screws weren't held fast by the several millimeters of glossy spray paint applied to the receiver. The previous owner claims he has no idea how the grip could have been completely broken off and then mysteriously glued back together. He has offered to buy a replacement grip and barrel to rectify the situation, and this post is to serve as public document until he does so, as per this AIM conversation (July 26th): SCP SuperRef: alright so, that grip looks pretty nasty, ill be willing to buy you a new one if youd like SCP SuperRef: however SCP SuperRef: the barrel has always wobbled SCP SuperRef: so of course the 3 piece would be able to bend up and down like that SCP SuperRef: and deivate form the upper receiver SCP SuperRef: with that 1 piece M16 front, that wouldnt be a problem SCP SuperRef: u there VinnyGT19: yes I am VinnyGT19: the problem is not wobble, I've tightened the grub screws and the barrel doesn't move, it's just bent SCP SuperRef: i now wish i did havea tracking number..because if you look closely, the pistol grip wasnt ever broken like that. VinnyGT19: well who broke it? It has most definitely been cracked through and glued back together SCP SuperRef: i can ask my parents, see if they stepped on it. I dont recall breaking it and glueing it back together. I think id recall something like that especially in a situation like this SCP SuperRef: i can buy u a new barrel and grip if youd like, but id have to get the money VinnyGT19: Ok, well please do, I'm not trying to be difficult, I was just shocked when I opened the box. SCP SuperRef: i would be shocked as well :/ I can't help but have a sour taste about all of this. Mods, please leave this post until the situation is rectified (replacement parts provided, or the trade items are returned to one another). thank you. Link to post Share on other sites
Flea Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 hey vinny, yes i have seen the ending results of the M15. I am buying you replacment parts for your troubles,. Also it is strictly forbidden in forum rules to post my full name and city,state in public VIEW. Thanks a lot for that, extremely disrespectful. I urge yoy to edit your post, and stop with the ######, im buying replacment parts and NO i do not know how the grip was broken, so dont make me look like an *beep*, making it seems like i broke it and glued it back together. 2, i apologize for bending your barrel, i didnt think with a 3 piece barrel itd bend. Once again im buying you replacment parts, i apologized for what has happened, im sorry for your inconvenience, and thanks for ruining a reputation well earned, i have done nothing personally to ruin it, yet you Vinny, have made it seem that way. Once again, thanks a bunch.... Flea EDIT: BTW for all I know you could have done it yourself, why I do not know. Sorry for spinning this against you but im quite curious, for that pistol grip was not broken when I shipped my item Link to post Share on other sites
kliskey Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Flea I have one question for you. If you bent the barrel - Why did you not tell Vinny prior to the trade? Also, if you are NOW willing to pay for the spares, why could you not replace them before you sent it to avoid frustration? One last thing - Whats with the large cracks and holes in the body? Link to post Share on other sites
PariahWolf Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Flea I have one question for you. If you bent the barrel - Why did you not tell Vinny prior to the trade? Also, if you are NOW willing to pay for the spares, why could you not replace them before you sent it to avoid frustration? One last thing - Whats with the large cracks and holes in the body? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They are areas left unpainted, on purpose... Link to post Share on other sites
hardboiledcop Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Something that always makes me worry about a seller, is if they have the guile to accuse the buyer of actually causing the damage themselves. If someone else caused the damage to the barrel, and to the grip, you would have noticed before packaging.. especially since you said you would go so far as to polish the scope etc.. before posting. You have his gun, which from this thread I can only assume got to you in good condition. He has your's which from what he has said, is a pile of ****. If I were you Vinny, I would ask for a complete trade back for your original gun. Since it took him a while to post you the gun because of not having a box and not being able to afford it, I reckon it might take him a while to get the funds to fix everything that's fubar'd on that gun. Oh and flea, people make mistakes, a couple of sales I've made have had to go along with a bit of aftercare when something's gone wrong, the difference being that I was always curtious, I NEVER ever accused them of causing the damage themselves, and the only way your reputation can be damaged is if (as you have done) you take a defensive stance when the buyer brings the complaint under public scrutiny. The easiest thing for both of you would be to lose the money from postage, bite the bullet, and get your own gun's back. But then it's not up to me. Good luck to the both you. hbc. Link to post Share on other sites
PariahWolf Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 I'm also going to say that from that first pic, the one with the scope on, you can clearly see the bent barrel and I think you can also see the cracked pistol grip. Also not the only person that thinks so. Also you said it wasn't bent? After he raised concern, I can see that from the photo, it would have been blatantly obvious in person... If the MODs feel this post is unessecery, please delete it. Edit: Vinny can you provide pictures of the other side of the pistol grip? Link to post Share on other sites
Flea Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 mm, i believe my rep was already ruined. I dont mind, its just an annoyance, i have the funds as is and am getting the replacment parts right when i get my paycheck. taking a defensive position isnt wrong, and if you were in my currect position I believe youd be offended as well. I knew the barrel was a 3 piece, and thought the RIS/barrel was wobbling, NOT bending. all in all it did bend, ive apologized, and i think everybody should cut the ######, im replacing the broken parts with even BETTER ones. This thread wasnt necessary at all in my opninion, im replacing damaged parts that i didnt know were damaged(pistol grip) and the barrel, i didnt check the barrel before i shipped, not a lot of people would on a regular trade. At least not the people i know. EDIT: btw i didnt..polish the scope? dunno where you read that Link to post Share on other sites
Flea Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 id like to again apologize for the present situation. Ive read these past posts over and over again and each time it becomes increasingly upsetting. I had no idea that the RIS was a TM, this alone puzzles me. I will be frank and admit I now do not know a lot about the gun other than the list of upgrades my friend gave me. They were vague but listed CA M15 and gave the list of internals. Im extremely sorry for this misunderstanding. Since this fiasco has begun ive been looking through old messages and such, trying to get to the bottom of this. All Ive come up with is what we have now. I regrettably do not have any answers for the mistakes that were made here Vinny. I think of myself as an extremely honest person, thus I am upset by this current situation, if I would have known I would have told you. Once again sorry Link to post Share on other sites
kliskey Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 i apologize for bending your barrel, i didnt think with a 3 piece barrel itd bend <{POST_SNAPBACK}> i didnt know were damaged(pistol grip) and the barrel, i didnt check the barrel before i shipped <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Two conflicting posts thier Flea Well I am glad to hear that thus far you have agreed to cooperate - I hope that we hear only good things in the near furture. Link to post Share on other sites
sirrith Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 I think you can also see the cracked pistol grip. I concur, the crack is obvious even on a pic that small, how was it you failed to see it when you had the gun in you hands? has the matter been resolved yet, by the way? EDIT:grammar Link to post Share on other sites
Tmayone Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 So what kind of body is that? LOL You agreed to buy him new parts - explained that you bent the barrel and broke the grip. WHICH you failed to tell him although you say; and I quote you, "I think of myself as an extremely honest person". So now, go ahead an explain what kind of body that is. Vinny also said the gun doesnt even have CA parts. This is ridiculous and very unproffesional. If I were you Vinny, I wouldnt settle for new parts, I would want my gun back. Trade it or sell it to someone that actually has there ###### together. For god sakes you cant even open it. I hope this has gotten resolved, best of luck to you dude. Tyler Link to post Share on other sites
Flea Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 So what kind of body is that? LOL You agreed to buy him new parts - explained that you bent the barrel and broke the grip. WHICH you failed to tell him although you say; and I quote you, "I think of myself as an extremely honest person". So now, go ahead an explain what kind of body that is. Vinny also said the gun doesnt even have CA parts. This is ridiculous and very unproffesional. If I were you Vinny, I wouldnt settle for new parts, I would want my gun back. Trade it or sell it to someone that actually has there ###### together. For god sakes you cant even open it. I hope this has gotten resolved, best of luck to you dude. Tyler <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tmayone do NOT post here and waste my time if you are too damn lazy to read my posts as well as vinnys. Im sick of these complaints and remarks when the matter at hand is being solved. I did not break the grip. I may have bent the barrel however that was an accident. A mistake is a mistake and im rectifying it. Every single time one of you comes in here you have your own assumption and each time I WILL correct your assumption. Because ill tell you right now, with upmost honesty it WILL be wrong. Ill be frank with you most of you guys dont bother to read before posting. So maybe now you will. I posted what I knew about the gun from a previous owner and apparently that was the wrong information. I understood it was a CA rifle, BUT i guess not. READ BEFORE YOU POST EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU Link to post Share on other sites
Md0ggyd0g Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 EDIT: BTW for all I know you could have done it yourself, why I do not know. Sorry for spinning this against you but im quite curious, for that pistol grip was not broken when I shipped my item <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Then why was the pistol grip GLUED? Sounds a lit like BS to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Connery Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Tmayone do NOT post here and waste my time if you are too damn lazy to read my posts as well as vinnys. Im sick of these complaints and remarks when the matter at hand is being solved. I did not break the grip. I may have bent the barrel however that was an accident. A mistake is a mistake and im rectifying it. Every single time one of you comes in here you have your own assumption and each time I WILL correct your assumption. Because ill tell you right now, with upmost honesty it WILL be wrong. Ill be frank with you most of you guys dont bother to read before posting. So maybe now you will. I posted what I knew about the gun from a previous owner and apparently that was the wrong information. I understood it was a CA rifle, BUT i guess not. READ BEFORE YOU POST EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, read before you post, Flea. You didn't send the gun with proper packaging, therefore any damage to the gun in transit would be your fault. Link to post Share on other sites
Carson Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Well I can see the situation that your both in here, and personally im with Vinny. Sorry Flea, but you have said some things that you still cannot be clear about. For example, first you said you didn't know the barrel was broken, then you said you hadn't bend it, then you said you did. Honesty is definatley the key to everything, if you say the truth all the time you are far less likeley to get into trouble than if you lie. And if you do tell the truth, the consequences in the end will be far less. Now having bought an AEG of ASC and the seller refused to send the item, and i had to go to the small claims court to try and get it back, which the guy did do after a month or two. I know the sort of situation you two are in. There is no excuse to sending the gun several weeks after you receivced the Tanaka, as you both agreed to send the items at the same time. There is also no excuse for saying you didn't see the crack on the pistol grip. Because i dont know about anyone else but if you can see the crack in the photo, then you'd have to be pretty stupid and partially blind to not see the crack in real life, expecially when holding it. Yes your doing your best to sort things out by replacing the broken/bent parts, but thats still no excuse for not telling the truth in the first place, even if you are only repeating what you were told by someone else. OH AND YES I HAVE READ ALL THE POSTS!! Link to post Share on other sites
Flea Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 Carson, yeah I can tell and I appreciate it. But when u say "For example, first you said you didn't know the barrel was broken, then you said you hadn't bend it, then you said you did. Honesty is definatley the key to everything, if you say the truth all the time you are far less likeley to get into trouble than if you lie." I did not know i bent the barrel however seeing as how I put the scope on, I admitted to bending the barrel...But i thought it was barrel wobble so did not pay attention to it. I hope that parts cleared up now. and as for the grip...guys it IS possible UPS broke that, Vinny claims he didnt, and I know he wouldnt just for me to buy him a better grip thatd be ridiculous. I didnt break it, so the only other people that had my gun was UPS. Do the math... and I did send the gun in a hell of a lot of bubble wrap, so you cant really blame me for "improper packaging" All the events that have been posted above have been said and done. All I can do now is buy replacment parts and ship them vinny's way. Link to post Share on other sites
Tmayone Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 Tmayone do NOT post here and waste my time if you are too damn lazy to read my posts as well as vinnys. Im sick of these complaints and remarks when the matter at hand is being solved. I did not break the grip. I may have bent the barrel however that was an accident. A mistake is a mistake and im rectifying it. Every single time one of you comes in here you have your own assumption and each time I WILL correct your assumption. Because ill tell you right now, with upmost honesty it WILL be wrong. Ill be frank with you most of you guys dont bother to read before posting. So maybe now you will. I posted what I knew about the gun from a previous owner and apparently that was the wrong information. I understood it was a CA rifle, BUT i guess not. READ BEFORE YOU POST EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you understood? I dont get it... If you had doubts why did you even put it as a CA? Ive read this entire thread, all of it. And right now, Vinny is the one who is going to belived here. No offense to your gun, but that looks like a hunk of ###### lol. The barrel is bent, theres a crack in the grip, and he cant even open it, whats the point, how is he going to clean the barrel or replace bad parts? And second how did the grip fall of, then get glued back together? Oh... right it happened in transit im sorry. Now im no expert here, but I belive TM RIS's cannot be fitted onto CA's. If you knew anything about this gun (which its seems you have no clue) you would relize thats not a CA RIS, the unit is much bigger than a CA. This is rediculious, Vinny - get your gun back, anyone who has any common sense will relize that gun is in NO condition to be shipped. - Tyler Link to post Share on other sites
VinnyGT19 Posted August 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 It's been a month since the M24 left my hands, and in hindsight, the absolute best thing for all parties would have been if I had paid the return shipping and insisted on getting the M24 back before Flea had shipped his rifle to me. I will refrain from any inciting/inflammatory remarks, as I feel my original post clearly outlines in an objective manner exactly what happened here. It's been over a week since I posted, so I figured I'd chime in, as this is still an ongoing process, just to let everyone know that I am still reading these posts. Link to post Share on other sites
Md0ggyd0g Posted August 8, 2006 Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 Just be sure to tell us if/when the parts arrive. Link to post Share on other sites
Brucken Posted August 8, 2006 Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 .guys it IS possible UPS broke that, Vinny claims he didnt, and I know he wouldnt just for me to buy him a better grip thatd be ridiculous. I didnt break it, so the only other people that had my gun was UPS. Do the math... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> UPS doesn't care if something gets broken unless it is insured, which it is unknown if you did. Did you insure the package? If you did, it is possible (however unlikely) that UPS broke it and reglued it, if not, and they saw it was broken, they would just say 'eh' and proceed with not giving a flying *fruitcage*. (not sure why they would open up a package anyway) If you didn't insure it, and HONESTLY, you did not break it, I would return to the parents theory, might want to ask them about that. Link to post Share on other sites
pillow_pwnage Posted August 8, 2006 Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 I find it thuroughly amusing that you seem to care more about "looking good on ASC" than completing a legitimate deal, well, legitimately. Link to post Share on other sites
Flea Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 the replacment parts have been ordered today. To vinnys door, hopefully hell get them soon. just a FYI for all of you reading these. Link to post Share on other sites
Flea Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 btw if you guys havent already guessed, most paychecks are a monthly/weekly occurance. ive been having to wait for my paycheck Link to post Share on other sites
Tmayone Posted August 14, 2006 Report Share Posted August 14, 2006 Please keep us updated Vinny. However I would have wanted my gun back. Link to post Share on other sites
Connery Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Hey Vinny, get a refund while you're at it. Link to post Share on other sites
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