Airsoft knife kills?

[target_practice]

reading all of these posts is quite interesting.......

some are against knives becuase of the danger of injury they carry.

but......

some of you think that the knife is good for " humiliating" people.

humiliation in a circle of freinds is good for a laugh.....but clearly if this is the reason for using a knife then ego ,testosterone and adrenaline are clearly pushing you to it.

 

only a couple have expalined about the skill needed to hunt and take someone out with a knife, or seizing an opportunity.

but again.....the word humiliate makes me wonder.......

im also looking at this lightly and in no way intend to intend to be against using knives....the more weapons and chioces of kills the merryer.

but to humiliate somoone is not " sporting".

if i were to be "killed" by a knife...then good on the lad/lass/alien liufeform that did it.....if they tried to rub it in afterwards to humiliate me.........who knows what my attitude might be after that???

if you mean some people find it humiliating just to actually be taken out by a knife then just tell them to grow up...its a game...you could be killed by a 6mm bb form any gun or grenade....same thing...a kill is a kill.

how the players conduct themselves about it is what effects the asttitude of the next game.......

[Basho]

I don't mean to sound prudish here, but does your insurance cover you for said acts?

 

An interesting point, one to put to Janno.

 

On the point of contact, Electro (and this is on old school night) is semi-contact and no bang rule; hardcore? Yes, a little. Due to the nature of the site. It is very very unlikely that you will actually get into MMA style tussle without simply being shot. This is because the range of gun combat is often 1-2ft and with no bang rule people will simply shoot you point-blank on full auto.

 

My personal knife is one I used to teach knife defense; the tanto (very bendy, full rubber type), which is totally safe to use. However, I have seen all types at electro and I know of one time a guy used a rubber bayonet on the end of his gun.

 

Is it safe to have knife kills? I think so, but it needs marshaling carefully.

[sharpshooterjack]

Knife kills are only good if you know the person your doing it to/having it done to by and i be a little woried if someone started grappling my neck and waving a knife in my face, i could't gaurentee they wouldn't be going home with a face full of their own splintered mask in their face!!!

 

Anyway, what sort of a crazed idiot, tries to stab people, a point is a point no matter what hard material its made from.

 

 

 

 

Face masks are designed to withstand 1J 6mm BBs, not 20mm object at several J. If you're aiming for the face with a "knife" you're an idiot and should be kept away from airsoft altogether.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the place for people like that should be kept away from PEOPLE all together!!!!

[White_Rabbit]

We play a knife rule at one of the sites I use but it is very very well run, all knives have to be soft rubber or foam and have to be checked by the marshalls. You cannot throw them or stab some one with hem but simply if you CAN get close enough to them hold it close to their body and say your dead, all the players abide by it and it can make for some fantastic games.

 

I think what it boils down to is how its run and the correct safety rules in place.

[target_practice]

if your refering to the rubber tantos like for sale by cimac and japan martial arts and kwon...then these are in fact hard rubber, i know of a rubber that i use for special effects that is even softer than these.

 

marshaling is ok.

but again...could someone actually explain the ACTUAL rules set down for knives.....marshals can only act on a situation when a situation occurs.

 

dont think im being wussy here....i train aagainst live blades, and we also use aluminium knives and rubber knives for training.

but thats in a controled enviroment with people who understand the pros and cons.

i know of people who......in a knife situation on the feild might decide to leave, 1 person i know...although he loves airsoft, suffers from a phscological problem which involves him not likeing people touching him...at all....and this is more common than people think...although being hit by bb's doesnt bother him.

so please...someone fully explain the bang rule or knife rules.

[White_Rabbit]

well the bang rule is simple, say you creep up behind some one and you get about 3 feet from them, if you shot them it would hurt like hell so instead just say bang and they will know they are dead, it just saves on the pain more than anything. Personally I dont like the bang rule, when i go to play airsoft i accept Im gonna be shot and so IF some one got that close then Ill just have to take the pain. I have been shot full auto in the fore head from a Thompson about 2 foot away and it hurt like *fruitcage* !! but it wasnt on purpose it was just a natural reaction the guy had as i poped up unexpectanly

[Basho]

the word humiliate makes me wonder...

 

One the subject of humiliation, it is an unfortunate side effect of airsoft that someone is going to get hit and someone isn't. There are two types of humiliation and two different reactions:

 

1. Caught unawares. E.G. Shot in the back of the head, from a hiding place etc.

2. Dominated. Domination in airsoft is when one team is so eating the smack down on another that the second team is unable to mount a defense anymore.

 

As a marshal I spend a large amount of my time keeping the game balanced to avoid people being humiliated by domination. Often by giving advice, making certain people swap sides, perhaps shooting a few people myself, or even calling a halt and resetting the floor/game.

 

It is the opposite of when as a player I try to "break" the opponents mentally all the time. I want them so afraid that they won't come out of their respawn. I want them frozen in fear in their defensive positions. I want to flank them and crush them utterly. I want my lack of fear of the pain of being laced to be my advantage. I want to work harder than they and respawn quicker to flood a room with more men firing faster...

 

... etc. This is the Darkangel way and our "aggression" has won us many battles.

 

The problem is the reactions once the fight has gone to total domination,

 

1. They get upset and humiliated. Take time out. Sit down, shake, cry, etc. They are in effect shell shocked. This is not good for them. Not good for the flow of the site or the game.

 

2. They get angry. Start shouting that people aren't playing fair. That they are not taking their hits. They start to cheat, often blatantly. Eventually these people leave the game in a huff. It is not fair that they have been humiliated, etc as they are special.

 

In situations where people are getting this "stressed" then rubber knives have no place and should be withdrawn for the night.

 

In games and on nights where the play is equal (ish) then rubber knives can be a safe fun addition to the mix.

 

It is for marshals to know how to make the game balanced enough for everyone to have a good time and not to go back to the safezone in tears.

 

 

basho

[White_Rabbit]

I think we all have to remember that no matter what I personal references are there will be some people who differ, i dont mind being laced eitheras i have a pretty high pain freshold, but people come and PAY to have fun and if they are not having fun because of some one elses ways then the best thing to do is for that person to bring down his level of play to match the majority and vice versa. i understand that most times there will be at least one person who has never played and as such may bea little pain shy to start with whie they get use to being hit with plastic BB's at 320FPS. They may not quite get what it going on and so things like the knife rule and bang rule have to be brought in and out of play to suit the level of play.

[Basho]

Personally I dont like the bang rule, when i go to play airsoft i accept Im gonna be shot and so IF some one got that close then Ill just have to take the pain.

 

In woodland the bang rule can be very useful and fun because it doesn't give away the position. For example:

 

Our greatest achievement was taking out the entire “Stag camp.”  We skirted around the camp, which has multiple sand bag positions and great fields of fire down the front paths.  Slowly and silently we crept in the rear entrance; hidden through bushes.  I led and came across a rear guardsman who back at me and, yes you guessed it, waved.  I signaled him that he was dead and to his eternal credit he took the “bang kill” silently.  Let me say it again; what a honest player.  Passing by him I could see 8 players dug in around the camp and all looking the other way.  We passed silently into their camp and I bang killed 4 of them before the others even realised they were under attack.  As I moved to the fifth George noticed that I had been spotted and opened fire.  Suddenly we were in a large firefight and all were killed.  nevertheless, we had taken the whole camp!

 

Without the bang rule that couldn't have happened.

 

One the other hand I had a guy 3ft in front of me once pop his head round the wall and say, "bang" and then pop back. The bang rule only works if you actually use your gun to 'bang', not just pop you head around. This isn't cowboys and Indians!

[White_Rabbit]

its one of those rules where some like and some dont I guess it boils down to put up with it or play elsewhere

[Stealthbomber]

I think it's underhanded to use the bang rule to achieve silent kills.

 

If a sniper (or anybody else) wants to make a kill he needs to take a shot. If that means it alerts other people to his presence then that's just bad luck. The idea of bang-kills is for safety reasons. NOT so you can make avoid alerting the opposition to your whereabouts.

 

A real sniper couldn't expect to lie in a bush and silently eliminate a whole patrol without them becoming aware of his actions. The same should be true in airsoft.

 

I've had a marshal come up to me and tell me that a hiding sniper had bang-killed me from his position. That is just the dumbest thing I've ever heard in airsoft.

[minimiman]

Hey Basho

 

I agree 100% on your take on humiliation.

 

What and how you marshal goes out of the window when your playing, totally owning the enemy is the key. Not exactly what you want when your marshalling though.

 

The bang rule is something completely different, doesn't work well unless you get the dead drop on somebody. I had a player complaining the other day they had been shot from 5 feet away by a player.....me ....he was hunting down, I hit him mid torso with a single pistol shot but got him on the finger, aparantly I should have banged him, rather than shoot but the same day got another complaint somebody had ran into a room and just said bang, bang, bang and decided he had shot 3 players.

 

As with all things everything has to be taken in context and scommon sence should be used......but unfortunatly theres nothing common about common sence.

[White_Rabbit]

At my local site the bang rule isnt enforeced so if i run up to some one and say BANG and they turn and shoot me then Im dead, like in everything in airsoft its all down to honour.

 

we only use the bang rule when your within a few feet of the person, if some one shouted bang at me from 20ft away Id just shout back *fruitcage* off and hose them down

[Basho]

... and just said bang, bang, bang and decided he had shot 3 players.

 

We got rid of multi-bang kills. Partially because of a tactic I loved, which was to sneak and flank the opponents on the top floor during free-roaming battlefield. By coming up behind them you could catch 4 or 5 facing the wrong way and bang them all. Eventually people were bang killing entire re-spawn zones (which are capture-able on some games) and it got silly.

 

When marshaling I require the player to touch each person in a group that he bang kills, but if one-on-one I require it to be either:

 

1. Face to face but clearly one kill. EG Player walks through a door, second player hid behind door pushes aside gun and places pistol in face.

 

2. Behind. Either shoot mid torso or touch on shoulder and say "you're *fruitcage* dead mate," in their ear (which counts as a knife kill).

 

If both shoot each other within the 'bullet time' then it is a dual kill.

 

Any pushing or excessive violence (never happened yet to me while marshalling), then it is both dead, back to respawn.

 

Interestingly, we were mulling around the idea of a 3 minute 'Sin Bin' for the more Teflon players the other day and I reckon its a classic idea.

 

What and how you marshal goes out of the window when your playing

 

Like Janno said to me once, "Basho, you are good as a marshal but a nightmare for me to marshal."

 

Personally, I am always aware that this is a game and thus the rules are there to be used as well as followed. Creative thinking is a winning tactic. Very often Trip and I will swap sides if one team is being owned and help out. That way, we get our fun too.

 

Basho

[Lance Jackass]

Well my take on airsoft etiquette:

 

Obviously what you do depends on the situation. It's all very nice saying what you WOULD do, but when you're scared/confused/tired etc, things change.

 

I try not to shoot people at close range, becuase i don't like getting it back. In woodland, if someones not seen you, its best to say "bang" if you're close enough. If they do see you, then a single body shot is enough (and i was very thankful when that happened to me at close action - saved me from a very close range burst.)

 

In urban, i don't really say bang, as i've got no intention of having a chance for my teeth to be shot out Normally i'll just point my AEG at them, they'll turn and see it and thats enough. If they DO see you at close range, then a shot to something like the boot is enough.

 

But things change. I remember the OP:MA zombie games where people jumped out at close range, and i did fire at "Bang kill ranges" - just out of shock really. I can't see that there is much need to go to a knife. To put down your gun and draw a knife, when other methods are fine.

 

As for knife kills. Why won't people just hold them by the blade and tap on the shoulder with the handle? Is that not macho enough? Someone at Ag04 got a knife kill by tapping the bloke on the shoulder with an empty GBB mag. Thats all it has to be. If it starts to turn into some kind of brawl, then thats just silly.

 

1. Face to face but clearly one kill. EG Player walks through a door, second player hid behind door pushes aside gun and places pistol in face.

 

Not sure i really agree with that. I'd be annoyed if someone grabbed my AEG barrel. I mean it could be dropped, smackd on the wall and it wouldn't do much for those guns that have barrel wobble. Sure AEGs get wear and tear, but i like to be responsible for mine - i wouldn't want someone else doing it for me.

 

If someone is about to blind fire into a room, then fair enough they deserve it, but otherwise you're making airsoft a contact sport - something that it really shouldn't be.

 

And pointing a pistol at the face - i know you guys go for full face (not all, as ive seen some pictures of "the 'werkz") but theres never a need to go pointing guns in faces. Hell theres no need for headshots either.

 

Only a difference of opinion, no offense intended.

[Pyromaster]

hehe, I just ordered a plastic knife off of WGC last sunday.

 

I can't wait for it to arrive, It's gonna be hard for me to knife most people that I play with

 

But seriously, I'll try and be a good boy and don't stab people too hard

 

 

 

*I'll probably only do a tap on the shoulder, so no worries*

[Basho]

I'd be annoyed if someone grabbed my AEG barrel.

 

"Grabbed" is not "pushes aside" and this is a vital difference when marshaling bang kills.

 

Also, at the Eletro' full face is recommended or you will get shot in the face. It is too dark and people have fast firing 300fps+ guns and there are a lot of people in close, close range.

 

You can bang kill with your hand from behind, although from the front it looks a little like slap'sies and this is not the Girl Guides!

 

Only a difference of opinion, no offense intended.

 

I respect your opinion and your knowledge. Airsoft is played differently all over and house rules are very common.

[Harmless]

As a knife kill victim, its an extremely embarassing way to go, but also very funny. I was killed by someone on the othe side of a crate, We both wre prepping our moves on each other, but he leaned over a threw it (softly) at me. At first I thought he'd dropped his gun, so I go up a and bang killed him with a moscart, But then he said "did I get you then?" I suddenly realised what had happened and just had to laugh,him kniofe me moscart and I'd lost I think he still stalks me for another

 

Common sense has to be used but knife kills definately add to the flavour of a game. Mind you funniest kill I've ever seen was a guy darting out of a dark doorway and getting kills with a rubber mace and shield. poeple just took their hits going, "what the ****?"

[Dizzy]

Just to back up Basho and give another perspective to electro's attitude to this kind of thing:

 

I have never got a chance to do a knife kill, though I very much want to. At electro there is not so much glory for the team winning, but individual acts of glory and skill. We reward the guy who takes down I think it was six enemies with an-almost-busted gun (you know who you are ). We reward running out firing into the enemy, sacrificing yourself to take a couple of guys down with you and help your team. And we reward the awesome skill required to make a humiliation kill.

 

By that I mean anything like a knife kill, tag kill, putting a gun to the enemy's head (without firing) to show how close you could get. I also mean having the balls to be surrounded by enemies, but walking so tall and self assured that they don't realise that having a green tag means you are on the other side until it is too late. My own best humiliation kill didn't even work. But it was so close and so much fun that I will always remember taking a guy hostage, and with a gun pressed against him and an arm around his neck using him as cover when I ordered his allies to back around the corner. Unfortunately some oppotunistic sod made a fantastic shot which took out my elbow, but that's by the by. It was just such good fun!

 

So to conclude, certainly there is some risk in doing knife kills. But I think if all people involved are responsible, the risk is very little, and the glory all too precious to forgo!

[Kov]

Shesh, as usual this whole topic has boiled down to the etiquette of airsoft game play with a whole lot of if-then statements.

 

I always laugh at people commenting on airsoft being a non contact sport (no insult intended here). Using the same logic, it’s much like saying a firefight in Iraq is totally non contact. Chess is a non contact sport. Dodge ball is a contact sport. D&D is a non contact sport. Airsoft is a contact sport. You are still being physically hit by other players; it’s just that the projectile is a 6mm plastic bb instead of a rubber ball or boxing glove.

 

Anyway…

 

 

 

Please respectfully understand that the whole point of a knife kill is the ability to put down and humiliate a player and be commended for it. You are raised above the player because after knifing them you have shown that their game play was so bad that you effortlessly snuck up behind them and tapped them on the back with a knife. That’s why, just like in the rest of airsoft, you use your common sense, honor, and etiquette when you use it-

 

Is it fun to totally humiliate complete strangers in real life? Make them feel so horrible about themselves that you risk physical harm in the process? No it isn’t, that’s why you don’t knife total strangers!

 

Is it fun to knife someone you know who has been having an awful day, killed no one all month, and had to spend two days fixing his new AEG? No it isn’t, that’s why you don’t knife someone when you know it will ruin their mood!

 

Is it fun to make children never want to do something again, to play against new players and show them that they are so inferior as to prevent them from every playing again? No it isn’t, that’s why you don’t knife people who are green!

 

You know the answers to all of those questions without me even answering them. That’s why it’s called common sense. Sure, some people are a little different, but the vast majority of people stray to be kind in real life. That’s why when we use an AEG, we don’t:

 

-Hunt down and repeatedly kill an enemy soldier if he is having a bad day

-Spawn camp a team that has been losing nearly every game

-Taunt losing a losing enemy team into submission

 

Using a knife on a field is the same as using an AEG and involves many of the same responsibilities as using an AEG. Everyone should know this, so we don’t need to run through every single worst-case-scenario that we can think of. Sure, some maniac can run around with his 12” machete with two inches of saranwrap smacking people over their heads in the middle of a dark room, or a crazy Asian with a 500fps MP5 can light your face up on fully automatic at nearly 4ft- but since you are playing airsoft then you accept that such things can happen, and since your common sense tells you that it will probably happen as often as the second coming of Christ you continue to play airsoft. Same reason we drive cars and fly planes and don’t think about all the bad things that can happen.

 

If you have a problem with people touching you with a knife during an airsoft game, then please find a field that does not allow the use of knives and play there. If you end up on a field that uses knives, then let the marshals know that you would rather get shot than knifed and let them spread the word for you. This said we all know that it is fun, sporting, and common practice for everyone to insult your friends or make slide comments about them. But for some reason we call it fun and a joke rather than public humiliation. You don’t make crude jokes to random people on the street, no that is offensive, you only do that to people you know.

 

That’s why you knife people you know, that you know can take the stab to their ego, and will share a beer with you at the local pub afterwards. Typically these people are your friends or close acquaintances, but believe me, you should know just by looking at a person weather or not it will be safe to knife them. Using a knife and not using common since is very dangerous. But I am not going to talk about it because as I have tried to demonstrate for several paragraphs that using a rubber knife involves the same mental process as an AEG. Using a knife and not using common since is as dangerous as using an AEG and not using common sense.

[Kov]

Oh, and on the topic of “Bang Kills”

 

Bang kills have been a very controversial subject on my team for over five years stretching the whole period of their existence. We have spent long hours talking and debating over how to correctly use them. The problem with bang kills is that you will have players that bang others when they are five feet behind them and players that will bang an enemy player twenty feet in front of them through brush (boy that sounded sexual).

 

Then comes the problem, do you make it mandatory for players to take bang kills? Then the person in the brush will abuse them even more… Well if we don’t enforce them then the person five feet in front of the banger will just calmly turn around and spray him like a little kid with a fire hose…

 

Firstly, we went away with the whole idea of “bang kills”. Our team uses “Safety Shots” instead. Their use is true to their name, they respect the safety of another player and nothing more. You can only safety shot a single player because of this. All our weapons are rated with a MED or minimum engagement distance and MSD or minimum safety distance. These values range depending on what your FPS limit falls into. So a player with a high power sniper rife will have a higher MED and MSD while a person with a stock MP5 gets a small MED and MSD. Each player knows his or her value and uses it appropriately on the field.

 

The MED restricts the range a player can call a safety shot on a player and the MSD restricts the range that players are allowed to even pull the trigger. Again, a stock MP5 may have a MED of 20 and MSD of 10. This means that this player cannot engage anything with his AEG closer than 10ft and is only capable of using a safety shot against a player a maximum of 20ft away from him. A sniper rifle with a MED of 150 and MSD of 50 means that the player with this rifle cannot engage anyone closer than 50 ft and is only allowed to use a safety shot up to 150ft. Yes, you can safety shot within the MSD but they MUST have the element of surprise in order to be considered.

 

Still, do you see the problems? What if the person using the safety shot is abusing the rule and what if the person receiving the safety shot is against them to begin with (as many people refuse to take them).

 

Well, that’s where it gets more complicated on paper. When someone is “safety shot” he is given the choice to accept the shot or deny it. The margin of time they have to deny it is less than three seconds, and then it is mandatory that they accept. Why so complicated? Because players that get safety shot or banged often freeze, calculate the odds against them, realize it’s in their favor, and then twirl around and engage the area were they heard the bang or safety shot called from. This is unfair to the person calling the safety shot. When you are being safety shot the other player is telling you “I can kill you with a 100% certainty right now, but since my sniper rifle hurts like a *badgeress* at 50ft I figured I would let you get away without the welt.” Why then is he rewarded with his concern for another player by being shot to hell? This is why a safety shot player has less than three seconds to move, duck, attack, or just make any action that shows the other player that he will need to take the shot. Otherwise he agrees to take the hit.

 

Once a safety shot has been accepted, it is common practice to turn to your attacker, and confirm with your own eyes if it is a reasonable statement. You can twirl around and see a machiengunner laying prone on the trail that you swore was empty just two second ago, or you can turn around and see a kid with a spring shotgun within a wall of brush twenty feet away. From here players are told to either leave the field as a dead man, or reach some sort of agreement if they think the kill was unfair. A martial can be called to resolve these issues if needed.

 

Sounds complicated? I bet it does, but in practice it is very practical once you actually understand how it works. In practice someone calls safety shot, the other person either attempts to avoid the eminent shot or calls it quits. Believe me, it took a long time to field test something as simple as a “bang” rule, but after using it for that long and getting tons of player input we are very happy with the result.

[Ledom2k6]

i think that knife kills add a certain element of realism to the game. If you prefer to be stealthy and get close, i believe it is right to "slap" someone with a rubber knife rather than shoot them with a gun that cause much more damage

[Pyromaster]

:'( My knife didn't arrive and I've got a game tomorrow!!

 

 

Damn slow HK post

[angel_wings]

I belive there is a video of a day at eversley last year when one of the actual squad members (team2sexy?) dressed in civies and knife killed multiple people.

 

I shall ask around!

 

On another note knife kills are no longer allowed after a health and safety inspector (who was there to play) saw two little kids having a bayonet fight at lunch. (if your ever at eversley its always in the briefing!)

 

As for bang kills its a definate no. Surrenders are better as its then the recieving players choice wether they want to try be a hero and get hurt (can't complain as they chose to retaliate) or just give up. Means theres no arguments after as well!

 

Personally i give up everytime!!!

[Stealthbomber]

Gotta say, if anybody grabbed me around the neck and tried to use me as a human shield I'd ask them to let go, then I'd force em to let go.

 

That kind of thing can ruin both people's day.