G&G L85 broken

[Stealthbomber]

Mine's always run on 8.4v and it still died.

 

Must admit, I haven't been killing pistons by smashing the end like most people seem to. My piston teeth have tended to just wear away in the middle or towards the end.

 

I'm also interested to hear more reports about the cut-off lever. Mine is definately goosed and I've read 2 other people saying semi "wasn't working" on theirs so I think this might develop into a trend as well.

[Lance Jackass]

I havent seen any warnings that you shouldnt use a 9.6v.

 

It says on WGC not to use 9.6s, but not in the actual manual? Madness.

[Lance Jackass]

I havent seen any warnings that you shouldnt use a 9.6v.

 

It says on WGC not to use 9.6s, but not in the actual manual? Madness.

[1st Commando]

G+G did say from the very beginning not to use mor ethan 8.4 volts and also on the website it's in the FAQ area.

 

that said i have seen them working perfectly well on 9.6 volts , especially once the 2nd tooth is removed

[The Chef]

oh well, teach me for not looking around about that.

 

Stealth... not good about hearing yours die on 8.4v. Dont really want to chop up a pertectly good battery for it to still conk out.

 

then again, I suppose its no big bother to just solder the cell back in if thats the case.

I am determined to not let this get to me.

 

Edit: Just looked on WGC, and it says usage of a 9.6 can damage the blowback. Mine was already disabled.

Still looking in G&G's FAQ's.

[WildCard]

Ah, but I stripped 3 pistons (of the 4 stripped) using 8.4v.... and i wasn't using the blowback

[Dentonboy]

I get the feeling STAR L85A2 buyers are reading this thread, quietly chuckling to themselves....!

[1st Commando]

they might be but Star had just as many ,if not more problems and many of those are whole design problems that could not be changed as easily as issuing new pistons etc

[Ripcurl682]

I get the feeling STAR L85A2 buyers are reading this thread, quietly chuckling to themselves....!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You got that right

 

 

I was mighty worried that two days after ordering my STAR, the G&G was washed ashore. Fortunatley, I haven't had a single problem with the STAR yet, it's a solid gun and I love it to death.

[Sale]

Here's a reply from G&G:

 

G&G L85 Notice!

 

Please make sure to read the following notice about L85 A1

This is to HELP all our customers worldwide understand how to avoid problems.

 

Recently, we receive some feedback from G&G L85 A1 owner regarding the piston damaged easily.

We found the reason is caused by using the lithium battery, or much bigger battery (over 8.4V)

 

Why?

If the L85 use the lithium battery, or over 8.4V battery, the gear set will run much faster then the piston moving. Finally, it will cause the piston be tear, or the gear set damaged.

 

How to avoid the situation.

1. To upgrade the spring to let the piston moving can catch up the gear set moving

2. To use more thin O-ring on the piston to reduce the air compression. To let the piston can catch up the gear set moving.

 

I would say theoretically they may be right. Because the stroke length is longer (due to the longer tooth rack on the piston), the sector gear also has a higher amount of corresponding teeth. This means that the "toothless gap" on the sector gear is smaller, which leaves less time for the piston to reach forward position before the sector gear starts another cycle. The long travel of the piston makes the situation even worse.

 

Due to the long piston stroke, the gun easily achieves high velocities (like 380-390 fps out of the box). When you downgrade it with a weaker spring, the piston slows down. Looking at the pictures of some of the destroyed pistons, it really looks like the sector gear hit the first tooth before the piston was completely forward.

 

If you cause a deliberate leak in the piston head with a thinner O-ring, the piston will travel forward faster, but muzzle velocity will drop. Perhaps the right O-ring / spring combo could make the gun work reliably. (Does anyone else get the feeling that matching O-rings and springs gives a strong memory of working on a classic BV gun? )

 

Maybe you could use a normal length piston and put a lightweight piece between the piston and piston head to adjust the length to a correct one, and remove teeth from the sector gear. This would shorten the travel to normal AEG levels (which is enough for the 509 mm barrel), and give more time for the piston to return forward before the sector gear comes along. Also, it would allow you to use any third party pistons you like.

 

Do the actual owners have any thought on this?

 

-Sale

[1st Commando]

I think you have hit the nail right on the head mate !

 

this is also a good explanation of why my L85 has been fine (aside from when i knackered a piston due to idiocy) as I'm still running a stock spring and now have the 2nd tooth removed too (just in case)

it does appear that the problems are starting when the spring is downgraded

 

oh well i better give a +1 for that theory

[Stealthbomber]

The idea of fitting a stock piston with a spacer in the piston head is something I've been looking at.

 

However, none of my pistons have been damaged at the end. They have all simply worn away to the point where the piston could slip.

This even happened with an alloy PSG1 piston.

 

Then there's still the issue of the semi-cutoff lever wearing away if you fire in semi a lot (also causing damage to the trigger contacts) and the cocking handle snapping off if you sneeze on it.

 

For me, until I can get the new cut-off lever and trigger switch, I'm pretty much f**ked. When (and if) I get the new parts, I will be doing my best to remove as many G&G parts from the gearbox as possible and attempting to set the gun up so it fires like a normal AEG rather than like a PSG1.

 

As for the whole Star vs G&G thing, for me it doesn't apply. There was nothing about the Star L85 that would have made me want to buy it. It's just a generic AEG bodged into an L85 shaped shell. At least the G&G internals look like they belong in there. Just a shame they're made of chocolate.

[WickedBassie]

I find this report from G&G very disturbing!

 

It looks like they want to improvise things, and solve the problems in half. With a stock spring, and a 8.4 this problem should not occur. But we all know they do!

 

Removing the second tooth on your piston will imho delay the time the piston has to reach resting position with a fraction of a second. If this is enough it's enough. But fact remains that your 3rd tooth is taking more strain, and is more likely to wear, so the lifespan will be shorter.

 

If they think that the gears are spinning too fast, and I surely think that this is the problem, they should make gears with more torque, so they would be revolving slower, and thereby solving the problem. I looked at the gears, and this can be done. Only minus is that the ROF will be lower.

 

When they really want to solve the problem, and maintain the same ROF they would have to make the diameter of the sector gear bigger, so the gap between the first and last tooth will be bigger allowing the piston to reach resting position in time. Problem is that they will have to redesign the gearbox. Guess they won't like that.

 

Maybe you could use a normal length piston and put a lightweight piece between the piston and piston head to adjust the length to a correct one, and remove teeth from the sector gear. This would shorten the travel to normal AEG levels (which is enough for the 509 mm barrel), and give more time for the piston to return forward before the sector gear comes along. Also, it would allow you to use any third party pistons you like.

 

Could solve the problem for us, but I don't think this is the correct long term solution. Keep in mind that the lightweight piece would have to be 10mm so you would have to use a normal aeg spring too.

 

I guess you can just remove the last tooth on your stock piston, and one on your sector gear to get the same result. Thing is that your pre-cocking system will not work anymore because the piston will most likely be released too early because the tooth that keeps it on tension will be gone. IMO this is one of the best features of the rifle, and I wouldn't like to lose that one for a reliable gun.

 

So my advice to G&G, make gears that revolve slower!

[Prolific]

Interesting because mines been fine and I'm also still running it on a stock spring, and me and first have been the biggest supporters of the gun. I think this may have identified the problem.

 

Best bed - email G&G with a link to this thread and a simply worded translatable explanation of what we think is happening. I expect they'll make their own recommendation for downgrading then.

[The Chef]

Sounds like a bloody good idea Sale.

 

I think that whipping just a couple of teeth off of the sector gear with a different piston may well indeed be the solution .

I mean for us poor saps in Blighty, we cant go 'upgrading' the spring at all. The thing fires pretty much near to (if not over) every site limit in the UK in its stock form alone.

 

Just done a quick check, the G&G Sector gear has 19 Teeth, compared to the 16 teeth of a standard Marui Sector gear.

 

If you start introducing air leaks into the system with different O Rings, then you might be introducing a variable, because you cannot really control the amount of air leaking on each stroke (it might be very minimal variance, but its variance non the less). Whereas a tooth change will be consistent.

 

I am going to try this next set of gears in standard form using my 8.4v 3600mah Ni-mh battery and see how we get on, if that goes squit, then I shall look to change the piston and modify the sector gear to suit.

 

Nice Sherlocking Sale.

[WickedBassie]

I guess you can just remove the last tooth on your stock piston, and one on your sector gear to get the same result. Thing is that your pre-cocking system will not work anymore because the piston will most likely be released too early because the tooth that keeps it on tension will be gone. IMO this is one of the best features of the rifle, and I wouldn't like to lose that one for a reliable gun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thought it over again!

 

It can be done only by removing the first tooth/teeth of the sector gear! In this way the sector gear's geometry will not be affected, and the pre-cocking system will still work!

 

Now we just need a willing victim to try it

[dechande]

the other option is to use a lower voltage battery. my l85 is firing 390, i put a 7.2 volt battery in it yesterday and it fired fine, with a good rate of fire, i noticed no delay on semi either. makes life easier too, as a large 7.2 will fit straight into the handguard, no custom trickery required.

[Sale]

WickedBassie: The simplest way to reduce ROF is to use a 7.2 V battery. No need for torque up gears when the gun is shooting below 400 fps. Just like when you are riding a bicycle, you pedal slower when you want to go slower, not just switch to an easier gear and pedal as fast as before.

 

Regarding tooth removal of the piston and sector gear, the semi auto timing would not be affected if you remove the last (metal) tooth of the piston, and first tooth of the sector gear. Personally I think it would be better to use a regular piston to reduce the amount of teeth, and start removing sector gear teeth from the end which first engages the piston. That way semi timing remains the same. The spacer between the piston and piston head would take care of proper compression and piston tooth alignment. Result: Similar piston travel and spring compression to regular AEGs. No more shredded pistons. (except for Stealthbomber, who has a different problem)

 

-Sale

 

EDIT: Beaten to pretty much all my points.

 

At this point I have to point a lot of the credit towards G&G. Improvising or not, at least they are doing something and I got my train of thoughts moving based on their official notice. Also I've understood that they have been sending spares for anyone with problems?

 

I agree with The Chef, the air leak is not that easy to control and it would hurt the efficiency of the gun. Making the piston short stroking might be the key for Brits who can't use the gun at the velocity level it was designed to work with.

 

-same

[WickedBassie]

By last tooth on the piston I mean the last tooth of the piston to interact with the sector gear.

 

By first tooth on the sector gear I mean the first tooth to interact with the piston.

 

By removing the last metal tooth of the piston you will effectively affect the length of the piston, and the gearbox will not work.

 

7.2 could work, but is not a failsafe solution!

 

Personally I have had problems with a 8.4v 600 mAh NiCd Sanyo not beeing able to pull the piston when it is pre cocked.

 

-:EDIT:-

 

Sorry, i'm mixing up things, what i ment is:

 

By removing the FIRST metal tooth of the piston you will effectively affect the length of the piston, and the gearbox will not work.

 

Sorry for that

[Sale]

Ah those pesky little mini batteries. They are no match for Sub-C cells even if the voltage of the latter pack would be lower. I'm willing to bet almost all of the problematic guns would stop shredding pistons with a 7.2 V large battery, yet be able to cycle the mechanism normally.

 

WickedBassie: We share the same terms about the last/first teeth on the piston and sector gear. You can remove the last (metal) tooth off the piston if you remove the first one from the sector gear. It will shorten the stroke, but not render the gearbox inoperable. The problem is, the last one should be metal because of the load and the fact that the last tooth of the sector gear slips off this tooth as the piston is released. That's why a standard piston (w. spacer) would be better. You get a shorter tooth rack but the last tooth remains metal.

 

-Sale

[The Chef]

Sale, yes they have been sending out replacements for free, you just pay the shipping cost.

 

Having just revolved the broken bits I have here....

 

if you remove the first teeth from the sector and the last from the piston, the spring will be being held back on one of the plastic teeth on the piston, rather than the metal insert. Surely with the spring under compression, its just going to rip through this plastic tooth (eventually)?

 

Likewise, if you only remove the teeth from the sector gear, the last tooth on the sector gear will end up with teeth on the piston still in front of it (again on plastic ones) which will wear out much quicker.

 

I am still trying to work out the resting positions of the gears etc.. because IIRC the spring rests in the compressed position a la PSG rather than needing to wind when the trigger is pulled.

[Sale]

The Chef: Like you said, it's not good having a plastic tooth as the last tooth of the piston. That's why I suggested a regular piston with a spacer to gain the length.

 

As long as you don't touch the last tooth on the sector gear, loading cycle and cut off timing are not affected.

 

-Sale

[WickedBassie]

edited previous post... I was mixing up things

 

My PSG piston has more than one metal last tooth by the way!

[Stealthbomber]

Sale, yes they have been sending out replacements for free, you just pay the shipping cost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When they actually reply to you.

 

My efforts to repair my gun have been MASSIVELY hindered by G&G failing to answer my emails.

 

Seriously, if you can get them to talk to you, ask them for a trigger contact and a semi cut-off lever and I'll pay you whatever it costs.

 

I've fitted a stock piston to mine with a few washers between the piston and head to give it the correct length.

I am currently using PSG1 gears in the gun BUT I have tried replacing the PSG1 sector gear for a normal sector gear. It has the correct number of teeth and (cos of the position of the cut-off cam), hopefully will allow the gun to fire like a normal AEG instead of like the PSG1 so you'd get no more dud shots after switching to semi and the spring wouldn't spend all it's time compressed.

 

However, I CAN'T VERIFY ANY OF THIS UNTIL G&G SEND ME THE NEW TRIGGER CONTACTS AND CUTOFF LEVER.

 

The gun is shooting Ok with a stock piston but I can't tell ANYTHING about the timing cos the damned thing will only fire in f**king auto.

 

Ahem, Yes. I am finding this VERY frustrating at the moment.

[1st Commando]

it is annoying that they are not getting back to you very quickly but I can't understand the delays as everyone else appears to be getting replies and the parts very rapidly (quicker than AW did in fact).

 

also An extensive test has just been done on the most common 8.4v battery brands and ALL of them output 9v or more !

 

could this be causing the excelerated wear on downgraded L85s ?

 

i think quite likely, it has been found that good 7,2 racing packs output nearer 8 volts so maybe using them is a good idea all although i have been using higher voltages on mine