Guest Captain J Wesker Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 I was under the impression that it was the senders duty to ensure their end of the trade went through. IE: Buyer ensures cash gets paid. Seller ensures item is delivered. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not quite. The seller should always get proof of postage, but unless the buyer has specified a method of postage, and payed any extra if required, once the seller has posted the item, it is then up to the post office to deliver. If it is sent by normal post, then it is up to the vagaries of the post office to get it delivered. It very well may still be on the way, last year i recived my christmas present from my grandmother in ....JUNE!!! Posted in December. Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend Scapegoat Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 I understand completely that there's no proof I never got the item - And had I been provided with proof of postage, I'd have been willing to consider meeting halfway. Especially since had proof of postage been kept, Pyro would have had £30 back on the automatic insurance ANYWAY! Since I shouldn't even HAVE to specify that - Keeping proof of postage IS a given in any sale or trade. It costs nothing extra, and anyone with an ounce of sense would ask for it when sending the item. Look at it from my point of view - I sent the cash, and not only have no gun but no evidence at all aside from Pyro's word that it was sent. I accept I should have confirmed the postage type - Which is WHY I would have been willing to accept a partial refund IF I had proof the gun had been shipped. You say it was agreed that you had until Feb 1st to pay. Yes, that's true - I accepted your offer of mags + cash totalling the correct amount. The problem was when you went BACK on that offer, and said you wouldn't be sending me the agreed amount - But rather the mags + a tenner. We went from : To: Hey, I've decided that since i'm not gonna come across alot of cash this year, and have no legal obligation to pay a full refund, i'll go halfish way. I'll settle and send 2 spetz mags, and £10. PM me your address. talk to ya soon, Nick You see why I was annoyed? As I said to you repeatedly - I'm happy to accept £65 and a Spetz hicap. As previously agreed. We go back to that deal and there's no problem. And, obviously, if Postman Twat shows up with a package for me, then the whole thing's moot anyway. You have my word that if such a package DOES arrive, the first thing I'll do is post in here... And if it shows up after I have my refund then I will of course RE-refund Mr Pyromaster. And either pay him for the Spetz mag, or send it back to him. Special Delivery ( Oh, and as for my reasoning for asking Pyro's age... If I'd known he was under 18, I probably wouldn't have bought from him as things tend to get complicated when an underager owes you money. In fact, most forums have a policy whereby under 18s may not use their classified adverts. ) Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Captain J Wesker Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 And, obviously, if Postman Twat shows up with a package for me, then the whole thing's moot anyway. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That has to be the funniest line I have read all day. On a more serious not though, I can vouch for pyro's honesty, having made about 4 or 5 trades with him by now, with no problems whatsoever. And you are right on the age thing, as he is under age, he cannot legally enter into a binding contract or private sale. Therefore the deal you had was null and void, neither can you reclaim your money from him. Of course, knowing Pyro, I am sure he will do the right thing. *Edit* What I meant was, that you could not take him to small claims court as they would throw it our for the above reason. Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost_Rider Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 That has to be the funniest line I have read all day. On a more serious not though, I can vouch for pyro's honesty, having made about 4 or 5 trades with him by now, with no problems whatsoever. And you are right on the age thing, as he is under age, he cannot legally enter into a binding contract or private sale. Therefore the deal you had was null and void, neither can you reclaim your money from him. Of course, knowing Pyro, I am sure he will do the right thing. *Edit* What I meant was, that you could not take him to small claims court as they would throw it our for the above reason. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, but he CAN take the parents to court as they are legally responsible for him. And I can still ban him for failing to complete a trade, as per the forums SOP for scam artists. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Captain J Wesker Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 No, the parents cannot be taken to court either, as at no point were they involved in the deal. Dude, you live in the UK, you should know that no parents are responsible for the actions of their darling offsrping. Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend Scapegoat Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Let's nix talk of bans and small claims for the time being, and put the last few hours down to bad moods and bad advice, eh? Pyro - Is £65 and a Spetz mag still OK with you? If so - Just give me a date. Any date. Stick to it, and it's all good. Link to post Share on other sites
Aitch Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Hopefully Steve can get his money back from Paypal, as an under 18 year old pyro shouldn't have a paypal account, failure on paypals part to ensure that buyers are protected against this very thing happening, if it is not his account and say it is his parents account, different ballgame, they accepted the funds, they WILL be responsible Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend Scapegoat Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Sorry, Nuclearfeet - I think I'm going to have to take offence at your post. I can PROVE that I paid for the goods. And Pyro SHOULD be able to prove that he sent them - As the Post Office provide FREE proof of postage when you send a parcel. The fault lies with whoever failed to ask for that free document - As to ask for it is pure common sense. Therefore, the benefit of the doubt lies with me. If I'd told the guy not to bother with insurance, then fair enough... I'd be totally at fault. I didn't. One point of interest - Pyro... Who is "David McLeman"? And who's email address is "mcleman@manx.net"? [EDIT] Looks like Aitch beat me to it He's right, though. As per Paypal terms and conditions: 2.1 Eligibility. To be eligible for our Services, you must be at least 18 years old and a resident of the United States or one of the countries listed on the PayPal WorldWide page. This Agreement applies only to Users who are residents of the United States and Singapore. If you are a resident of another country, you may access your agreement from our website in your country (if applicable). ANYWAY... Let's see what Pyro says before we go any further, huh? Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost_Rider Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 No, the parents cannot be taken to court either, as at no point were they involved in the deal. Dude, you live in the UK, you should know that no parents are responsible for the actions of their darling offsrping. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What he has done is technically theft by deception, which he's more than old enough to be done for. If the child isn't old enough to be responsible, who do you think is? Plus, if the paypal account IS his, he's in breach of paypals TOS. And, FWIW, IANAL, but if the goods are his, then he's just as bound by the sale of goods act as anyone else, and just because your under 18 doesn't mean you're exempt from civil proceedings in all cases. Are you a lawyer, Captain Wesker? If not, I'd suggest not posting further legal advice. I've already had to delete some legal inaccuracies from this thread and I'd rather not have to remove any more Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 How can somebody prove they haven't received an item? I think the whole cornerstone of informal trading on the interweb MUST be that the sender takes care of their own end. There's simply no other way to make it work. Sending cash is an instantaneous thing. You agree to buy an item, you send the cash, the seller receives the cash and then packages up the item and posts it. The seller is the person who initiates the trade and then has to send cash to a person he doesn't know. Are we now to assume the buyer has to take responsibility for the other end of the trade too? BS! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Captain J Wesker Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Are you a lawyer, Captain Wesker? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Does Playing Pheonix Wright Count? lol! Link to post Share on other sites
Connery Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Does Playing Pheonix Wright Count? lol! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "No." Anyway, Pyro is in debt under the age of 18. Pretty strange, but if you look at it in a certain way, this is a good learning experiance for him. Granted, the only difference is that his credit line isn't getting tarnished, but the principle's the same. Scapegoat, I'd suggest meeting him halfway for now, but if he fails to deliver again, then you should bring out the big guns. Link to post Share on other sites
Pyromaster Posted January 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 One point of interest - Pyro... Who is "David McLeman"? And who's email address is "mcleman@manx.net"? [EDIT] Looks like Aitch beat me to it He's right, though. As per Paypal terms and conditions: ANYWAY... Let's see what Pyro says before we go any further, huh? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> To GR and RS, David McLeman is my dad. Mcleman@manx.net is his email address. I'm Nick McLeman I do have permission to use his paypal account from time to time, but I do not own it, so I am not breaking any TOS. And to all, IF I had £80, I would pay RS the full refund. However, I don't. I'm trying my best to get the money, even trying selling some of my airsoft gear, but how am I supposed to do that if my sales threads are locked? I have learned my lesson, and from now on, everything I send will be sent recorded. The only reason I didn't send this recorded is because I have never had RM fail me before, after the countless number of things that I have posted, this is the first that hasn't arrived. And is there anyone here that actually knows the 'selling on internet' rules? There have been 1001 different opinions, and I would really like to know the truth, and not be messed around even more. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Captain J Wesker Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Giving out someone's real name and e-mail on a forum = NOT COOL Link to post Share on other sites
Pyromaster Posted January 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Btw, to mods, Can I get my sales thread back, I need the M9 sold asap to get money xd Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend Scapegoat Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Giving out someone's real name and e-mail on a forum = NOT COOL <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My bad - It was a genuine question to ascertain who it actually was I had a contract with . Mods - Please delete that info. It never even occurred to me that it might cause offence. As it stands, I'm happy with the legal situation and know I could pursue the matter were things to go wrong again. Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 And is there anyone here that actually knows the 'selling on internet' rules? There have been 1001 different opinions, and I would really like to know the truth, and not be messed around even more. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The "rules" according to the law are as have already been stated earlier in this thread. legally, you probably have no obligation to do anything to rectify the situation. From a legal point of view, I doubt there is anything to prove that you and the buyer had any kind of contract and there's certainly no way to prove you owe the buyer anything. FWIW, I had this EXACT situation. I pursued some f**king toerag to the opposite end of the country after he ripped me off. After I found him I contacted the police and they went to speak to him. In his statement he said that the £150 I had given him (I had proof via bank records) was "payment for assistance I'd given him with computer problems". That was complete and utter BS but, as a result, it meant that it was simply my word against his and the police couldn't get involved. This was even though he'd also done the same thing to 2 other people after me. So, legally, you're in the clear. Home free. Go you! However, from a moral point of view, in terms of "doing the right thing", you owe the guy a refund or a gun. Simple as that. Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend Scapegoat Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Stealthbomber - Please don't tempt the guy to take my cash and run! Anyway, the reason I was asking who was who earlier is that Pyromaster has used his Father's Paypal account, therefore the contract is a legally binding one between myself and his Father now - Or else his father is guilty of allowing a third party to use his Paypal account, contrary to Paypal rules. Worst case scenario is that I get a chargeback placed on my credit card account, which will be passed on to the Father's account and possibly harm his credit rating. To be honest, the best option as far as I see it is for Pyro to send me one of his old hicaps and the £65 agreed upon. He's down less cash than with a full refund, and I get something of use to me and lose nothing. Link to post Share on other sites
Aitch Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 I hope you aren't advocating pyro welching on a deal, whether he is under 18 or not, thing is with it being his fathers paypal account and him accepting the money he is responsible, I'll refer to an incident on ASC which concerned a user not delivering goods, he used his mothers paypal account, the buyer whom he was ignoring took her to small claims, she coughed up quickly, not a leg to stand on, I see that being the case here, so i reckon the ball is firmly in the owner of the paypal accounts hands. Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I hope you aren't advocating pyro welching on a deal, whether he is under 18 or not, <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Absolutely not. Quite the opposite. I was just trying to point out that "legal obligation" isn't really a fair guide to how a person SHOULD act in this situation. Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend Scapegoat Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Good news, everyone! [/professorfarnsworth] [22:30] I've got some good news [22:30]I sold the M93R, do I'll be able to give you a refund + the ak mag Sweet. PMing details to the guy now. Hopefully this thread can disappear within a few days Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend Scapegoat Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Received Spetz mag today. Will update when refund appears in my PayPal account - Apparently Pyro needs to sell some mags as well as his 93 to afford that. Cheers. S. Link to post Share on other sites
Cookie_Monster1987 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Received Spetz mag today. Will update when refund appears in my PayPal account - Apparently Pyro needs to sell some mags as well as his 93 to afford that. Cheers. S. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> well he's sold the M93r to me... i sent him the £78 we agreed on via paypal on sunday morning.... although have heard NOTHING from him since the money was transfered... sorry to thread jack, well i would be, but the OP is the one i have the problem with... any advice? Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend Scapegoat Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Heh. :| Read the rest of the thread? That's about all I can say mate. Hopefully for both our sakes ( And his ) he has sent your goods, and just forgot to say so. I'll let you know if he Paypals me my refund. I'm pretty sure I can accept the payment, and if you need to reclaim it then your claim would come straight from the father's credit card, yeah? Don't wanna screw someone else over simply to sort myself out! Link to post Share on other sites
Cookie_Monster1987 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I'm pretty sure I can accept the payment, and if you need to reclaim it then your claim would come straight from the father's credit card, yeah? Don't wanna screw someone else over simply to sort myself out! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> not sure what you mean by that bit, but i did read the rest... and if i've heard nothing back from pyro by sunday (a full week on when i know he's been online) i'm gonna get my dad to try to recover the funds via paypal.... (i'm not some kid i'm 20... jus cba with paypal ) Link to post Share on other sites
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