Pyromaster Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 0.o?? but what does that have to do with God's power being affected by free will? Personally, I believe that even if God is omnipresent, he has no power, he cannot physically change or manipulate anything in this reality any more. either that, or there is no god. Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 If God is everywhere, including all times as well as places, man can have no free will. Link to post Share on other sites
casey_cole Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Pyromaster: To your "0.o??" The only fault I can find with the logic of omniprescency and omnipotency is that God would be *in* hell, so I gave a counter-argument. I respect, but oppose your belief as I have seen physical change brough to the world by (IMO) God. Edit: Sledge: I still fail to see your logic, please present some valid premises. CC Link to post Share on other sites
Pyromaster Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Sledge, that is not true; God is merely an observer sitting in a seat and watching a show, he doesn't have to control us like puppets. However, if god is in all places, at all times, and all knowing, then it is impossible for him to exist in our dimension. Therefore I believe he holds no power. Link to post Share on other sites
casey_cole Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Your premises contradict themselves - if God is in all places, then he is in our "dimension" as you put it. Explain please. CC Link to post Share on other sites
Pyromaster Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Hmmm....... damn it. Well what I was thinking a few days ago, was that if a being knew what everyone has ever thought or done, what they are thinking or doing, and what they will do or think, how can he exist in what we call the present? or in any time in that matter. He cannot exist in our space-time dimension. *I think. remember, this is the opinon of a slightly crazy 15y/o* Link to post Share on other sites
casey_cole Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Your argument could be valid - but for that to ring true, you need first to believe in space-time dimensions...which I do not. I believe that the present happens, the past has happened, and that no-one who is without ultimate power can know the future. CC Edit: Forum kind of screwed up. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 I'm confused--how are you adding logic into something that is completely illogical? Christians believe, actually, that God gave humans free will to do whatever they want - not to live by a set plan. If God did have an unchanging, anal-retentive plan that controleld everything in the entire world, why would he allow people to live as non-christians? Surely he'd *make* everyone worship him? The whole basis behind the christian belief is that free-will allows you to love God. If he *made* you "love" him, you'd be nothing more than a robot, blindly following a religion with no autonomy; and therefore, you could not choose to love him; you would be ordered to. Odd--my Christian mother keeps telling me that god both has a plan for me, and that he gave humans free will. That is completely contradictory. And, she blindly follows Christianity.... The "fact" that the Bible is infallible is completely false. In order for it to be infallible, it would have to have been written by god himself, and magically delivered on the face of the earth. But since it was written by man, an intrinsically fallible creature, then there's no possible way that the document is infallible, even if man wrote it through devine intervention. Link to post Share on other sites
casey_cole Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Odd--my Christian mother keeps telling me that god both has a plan for me, and that he gave humans free will. That is completely contradictory. And, she blindly follows Christianity... Firstly, you're presuming that your mother lives as a perfect christian, and knows all the answers - the word "blindly" implies that she doesn't - remeber my post on robots? (I don't know all the answers, btw.) Secondly, I should have put the word "many" first. I believe that, most of my church believes that, my three vicars believe that. Seing as I don't know your mother, I can't say what she believes. Thirdly, I believe that God has a plan for the world as a whole - not as individuals. No-one's mentioning the bible yet. However, seeing as you brought it up: Firstly, you seem to believe that God is infalliable, yet you display many atheist beliefs? Secondly, I believe that man can create perfect works through total commitment to God - the disciples for example - men who had seen a man die, brutally on the cross, then risen from the dead, days later - could have had a much greater commitment to God than modern people can imagine, as they had seen a hands-on view of God (Jesus). The prophets of the old testament were spoken to, directly, by God. They would have a great commitment. By truely repenting, and asking God for forgiveness, you can achieve a greater commitment. Thirdly, it is impossible to prove a negative...but that is childish behaviour in a theological argument CC Link to post Share on other sites
DirtyMoFo Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 when do we start questioning this 'god's plans for the world? all i know is that we have a complete twat running the worlds largest super power, global warming is slowly but surely tightening the noose on the earth, and i dont see how there is any way out of at least the latter happening, so why does every christian go along willingly assuming that god's plan is good? i am, by the way, an atheist (sp?) Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Edit: Sledge: I still fail to see your logic, please present some valid premises. CC <{POST_SNAPBACK}> God is in all times. That means the future exists as a, from the perspective of someone in the present, fixed event. Therefore, there can be no free will. God cannot exist in the future where I bought a bacon sandwich for lunch if I change my mind and buy chicken. Therefore EITHER there is no free will, OR God cannot be omnipresent, therefore is not god. However, as has been pointed out, the problem is one of attempting to argue logically for something that has no logic. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltSky Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Your argument could be valid - but for that to ring true, you need first to believe in space-time dimensions...which I do not. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So your counter-argument for the existence of God is that you don't like a scientific theory that would prevent him from existing? 11. ARGUMENT FROM CREATION, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (I) (1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists. (2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable. (3) Therefore, God exists. Kinda similar there isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Firstly, you're presuming that your mother lives as a perfect christian, and knows all the answers How can I presume those two things when I know full well that there is no such thing as a perfect christian, and that she does not know the answers? Firstly, you seem to believe that God is infalliable, yet you display many atheist beliefs? I never said god was infallible...and I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic. Secondly, I believe that man can create perfect works through total commitment to God - the disciples for example - men who had seen a man die, brutally on the cross, then risen from the dead, days later - could have had a much greater commitment to God than modern people can imagine, as they had seen a hands-on view of God (Jesus). The prophets of the old testament were spoken to, directly, by God. They would have a great commitment. By truely repenting, and asking God for forgiveness, you can achieve a greater commitment. Achieve a greater commitment, yes. Perfct? No. If Jesus is the only perfect being that lived on this earth, according to christianity, then that would make even his disciples imperfect. Thus, making the Bible imperfect. There is no such thing as perfect--there's no such thing as a perfect circle. There's no such thing as a perfect square. And there's definately no such thing as a perfect human being. Perfect is a philisophical illusion just like even and odd numbers. Link to post Share on other sites
casey_cole Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Sledge: This only applies if you believe that the future is already "mapped out" in an alternate reality. Cobaltsky: I do not believe in alternate dimensions - but it is a nice theory. I understand evolution and alternate dimensions, thanks. If you want to insult my mental capacity - go ahead; I am understanding of my own mental abilities more than you could imagine. It could be similar, but no more "proof" exists of evolution than of alternate dimensions. Sekiryu: Alright, to present your argument effectively, those two things need to be presumed. You implied it (different thing, I know - but I was exploring all possibilities). Okay - but you seem to swing towards the non-believing end of the scale from what you've said. No, they were not perfect, but with God working through them, the word that they wrote was God's word. CC Link to post Share on other sites
DirtyMoFo Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 how come theres so many contradictions then? if it was wrote by god through his desciples? Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Sledge: This only applies if you believe that the future is already "mapped out" in an alternate reality. CC <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. Point I'm making is not about the possibility of parallel dimensions, as that's a theory. I try to stick to fact where possible. If God exists in all times and places simultaneously, as omnipresence would suggest, then the future must be fixed, or God could not be there. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 No, they were not perfect, but with God working through them, the word that they wrote was God's word. An imperfect interpretation of god's word. Just like how when you translate from one language into the other, things get lost. Considering that the Bible went from god to man, to Hebrew, to Greek, to god-knows-what-else, to English, there's a crapload of things that could have been lost. Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 And has been re-written, and re-interpreted many times... Parts have been mis-translated, deliberately suppressed and God knows (pun intended) what else. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 And then there's these other "books" of the Bible that apparently never made it because of some special meeting. Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 That as well. Basically, I don't see how, even if you think the original Bible was the word of God, anyone can accept it's present form as anything but a story decided on by generations of people with a vested interest. Link to post Share on other sites
joeking27 Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 So it would be a shame if today's translations were from the original texts? Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Sorry, not quite following your point. Link to post Share on other sites
GuzziHero Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Consider the impasse of a one God universe: he is all-knowing and all-powerful. He can't go anywhere because he is already everywhere. He can't do anything since the act of doing presupposes opposition. His universe is irrevocably thermodynamic having no friction by definition. So he has to create friction: war, fear, sickness, death to keep this dimeshow on the road. Sooner or later: "look boss, we don't have enough energy left to fry an elderly woman in a fleabag hotel fire". "Well, we'll have to start faking it." Joe looks after him sourly and mixes a bicarbonated soda. {urp} "Sure, start faking it and leave the details to Joe." <William Burroughs> Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 One thing that I've always wondered about: If god created us, then why did he also create this huge universe with millions of galaxies, stars, black holes, etc.? Why is it that so many natural things can kill us? Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Because the only thing more reliable than symmetry is irony. Link to post Share on other sites
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