scithe Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 ok, so i just got a chance to test my new matrix .30g BB's, it wasn't the best day to do this cause it is kinda windy, but it's not too bad. ok, so i loaded it up, adjusted my scope, aimed, and fired... the shot went WAYYYYYY off. i tried it a few more times, but got no better results. so i put in my regular .30's to see if it was my rifle, aim, or the ammo. well, it turns out it was the hop-up. although the hop-up was good for the regular BB's, the metal ones are apparently much more sensitive. so i course tuned the hop-up with the regular .30's, and then fine tuned it with the aluminum ones. here are my results with a 303mm barrel and sp150 spring: UNDER THREE INCH GROUPINGS AT OVER 100 FEET!!!!! i don't know the actual accuracy at longer ranges, but i know that the bb's retain their velocity and accuracy MUCH better than the regular .30's. they also have a significantly flatter trajectory. the only disadvantage to these bb's is that they are not the best quality. some of the bb's have slight indentations and creases and such. a "deffective" BB like this will either decrease the accuracy to that of a regular BB, or to the point that the BB will fly completely off course. this all depends on the size and shape of the deffect. all in all, they have phenominal accuracy and long range capabilities, but you have to sort out the "deffective" ones which will completely mess you up.... or you could spend the extra money and get a better brand, but i do not know what brands have the most precision made BB's. o, and also, just in case you don't know this already... DO NOT USE THESE FOR SKIRMISHING!!! aluminum BB's have significantly more energy transfer than the regular BB's. just to give you an example of their power, i shot a courque-like wooden board (hope i spelled that rite) from about 15ft. (stupid me, i know ) well the BB bounced back at what looked to be about 150fps or so and cought me in the left side of the forehead. it really really hurt. then my eye started tearing and the spot where it hit swelled up like crazy. that was at only 150fps too. so ya, not smart to use these for skirmishing. Link to post Share on other sites
Sale Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 If it's the same size and weight, material does not matter. There's no such thing as "more energy transfer". A 0.30 gram 6 mm BB does the same thing if it's plastic or aluminum. -Sale Link to post Share on other sites
DarkLite Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 As Sale pointed out, there's no benefits at all. A ton of feathers and a ton of bricks are both just as massive as each other. Also, these will scratch up your inner barrel faster. Link to post Share on other sites
scithe Posted February 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 first of all, it does matter what it is made out of. i have been hit by an aluminum bb and a plastic one that were the same weight and moving at about the same velocity. the aluminum one hurt MUCH more. (same place too) also, when i shot the courque board with both bb's, it reacted differently. not only that, but the aluminum bb's have a flatter trajectory. so explain to me how i get all those results if the aluminum bb did not have some sort of different property than the plastic ones (though their not exactly plastic) as for the aluminum ones scratching up the barrel, it makes sense, but i have been told by many people that it does not do this. do you have any proof to back it up? if so please let me know so that i don't ruin my gun. Link to post Share on other sites
zentaurus Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 dangerous waters, i know, and this has been discussed in other threads too, but could it be that . . . the feel of an alum bb hit feels more "hurtful" and the reaction of the inanimate object is different because of the material, not the energy transfer. plastic, generally, has more "give" than aly, and thus absorbs more, rather than transferring more, which aly does? whew, that was long-winded, wasn't it i'm with darklite and sale on the technicals. but scite's pov is not technical, imo scite: the reason behind the bb scratching the bucking is the same as your "energy transfer: basis. cheers, zT Link to post Share on other sites
Sale Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 Aluminum will react differently when you shoot hard targets, because plastic BBs just shatter or at least crack and dent when you shoot steel targets (like Airsoft Practical Pepper Poppers). But the plastic BB does not deform when it hits skin, so the material doesn't make a difference in that case. Pain is a subjective thing. If scithe knew he was shot with an aluminum BB, it may have had a placebo effect. Also the flatter trajectory has nothing to do with the material. If it had a smoother surface or something, that's the explanation. Different materials don't have different "inherent" wind resistance. Smooth surfaces just cause less drag than rough ones. -Sale Link to post Share on other sites
DarkLite Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 Upon flesh, there is no difference (in terms of airsoft) whether the BB is plastic or metal. However, there is a pyschosomatic effect - most people expect that the metal bb will hurt more, and so they think it does. Link to post Share on other sites
Sale Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 Does it echo in here? in here here Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger Stubbs Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 I beg to differ, and keep in mind I'm not slamming ANYONE in this post at all. Simply educational. Aluminum BB's ARE different in the damage they do when they hit flesh. It's no so psychomatic as some of us think either, although it can play a factor in it if someone's a wuss. So why is it different? We'll bring in an example from real steel 5.56mm ammo. Tactical teams are currently using a polymer tipped round called the V-Max, to prevent from hitting something they dont intend to by overpenteration. While the bullet weight is still the same as a full metal jacketed round and both are traveling at near the same muzzle velocity leaving the barrel, a FMJ round will penetrate several layers of drywall and can shatter the 2X4 studs inside if it happens to strike them. The V-Max can penetrate one layer of drywall and that's about it. Why? Someone here almost had it. Polymer is less dense than the steel used in the rounds. The plastic BB's are much less dense of a material than aluminum. Just because things are shot at the same velocity and weight don't mean a thing with energy transfer at that point. Density is what makes the difference. How dense a BB is means the difference between how fast your body (or other object) can slow one BB down vs. another. It's not the BB deforming or giving, it's your skin and the other tissues underneath it absorbing the hit and slowing the BB down. It simply takes more resistance (energy) to slow the aluminum BB down vs. the plastic one causing more damage to your skin, therefore hurting more. The more dense an element, the more energy transfer you'll have. It's been 14 years since high school physics for me, so forgive me if I'm not spot on. Another example I can think of is why some countries use depleted uranium, (the most dense metal known to man) for both a tank's main gun ammo and a tank's armor. The depleted rounds punch right though steel, (higher energy transfer) the armor stops steel shells dead. (better absorbtion ability) Both from depleted uranium having a higher density than steel. Like I said, sorry if I cant back it up while the full science textbook, but someone else might be able to with that hint. Link to post Share on other sites
Carrion Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 thats is becasue the shell has a greater mass thus higher inertia for the same dimensions. not mass. .2g is .2g regardless of what it made from., if it has the same dimensions it will have the same inertial coeficent. as such a .3 ally bb @6mm will have the same rnage, power and lack of penetration capability as a .3g plastic bb @6mm Link to post Share on other sites
DarkLite Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 thats is becasue the shell has a greater mass thus higher inertia for the same dimensions. not mass. .2g is .2g regardless of what it made from., if it has the same dimensions it will have the same inertial coeficent. as such a .3 ally bb @6mm will have the same rnage, power and lack of penetration capability as a .3g plastic bb @6mm <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Exactly. All this talk of density is completely irrelevant. 0.3g is 0.3g is 0.3g is 0.3g, whether the BB is metal, plastic, wood or ceramic. Upon flesh it acts the same. Link to post Share on other sites
Carrion Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 unless your using foam etc which is deformable. then density does play a slight part due to the internal make up of the material (lots of gaps) pentration in shells comes partialy from the imparted energy and also from the design of the projectile. also most cannon shells use the impact to melt the armour and crate shrapnel inside the vehicle. and noone using depleted uranuim armour. its to expesnive and slightly radioactive so is a bad thing to be inside. they use either rolled arour plate using stell and a blend of high stength alloys or reactive armour which deflects oaprt of the energy of the charges. Link to post Share on other sites
otherrandomhero Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Density means absolutely nothing, since they are all .3g and 6mm. Regardless, they have the same relative density. What makes a difference is the hardness of the substance. Most high-quality bbs are designed to flex when they hit something (they do this to prevent shattering, but flexing instead). Metal, on the other hand, is a much stronger substance than plastic is and therefore doesn't flex nearly as easily. As a result of this, when it hits something more energy is transferred into the target, as opposed to a plastic bb in which less energy is transferred since flexing keeps it from transferring more energy. Think of it like a paintball. A 3 gram paintball moving 600 fps will deliver about 52J of energy, but why doesn't that kill people/give them concussions in head shots? Because the paintball squishes when it hits the target, so not all the energy will be transferred into the target. If paintballs made of metal were fired at the same velocity, however, paintball guns would probably be illegal since they could be potentially fatal. Get it? Good. Link to post Share on other sites
Sale Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Most high-quality bbs are designed to flex when they hit something (they do this to prevent shattering, but flexing instead). Metal, on the other hand, is a much stronger substance than plastic is and therefore doesn't flex nearly as easily. Most BBs shatter or dent when they hit a steel target. Even the hardest BBs I've seen get a flat spot on them. None of them flex when they hit human skin and tissue. I've plucked a BB out of my skin with tweezers, I would know. Ranger Stubbs: An interesting story once again, but completely irrelevant. The special rounds designed to penetrate less are typically designed to break after hitting something hard. Even FMJs do that in some cases, but we are already discussing a forbidden topic on this forum so I'll just cut to the chase: Neither an aluminum or plastic BB shows any deformation when it hits a soft target. I'll fix your sentence for you: "Aluminum BB's are NOT different in the damage they do when they hit flesh." -Sale Link to post Share on other sites
Chris North Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Going a little bit more off topic here but what if the bb were to hit something with a thing coating of flesh over it, and bone directly behind it? Such as a bare knuckle, forehead, or shin? Could it possibly hurt more then, or the same rules still apply? Link to post Share on other sites
otherrandomhero Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Can we just end this stupid discussion? We're already out of forum limits on what we can discuss, and this is hardly even worth discussing anyways. Sale: regardless, you can't argue that a metal bb will be softer than a plastic one. Because of this, even if they do shatter, the very slight amount of flex a bb has will be greater on the plastic one because it's softer. That was my point before, and thats my point now. If something is softer, it will hurt less. Boom, done, end of story. Link to post Share on other sites
Sale Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 (edited) Chris, hits to the fingers and knuckles especially hurt really bad. I once got hit to the forehead by a sniper way off forum limits, and while it didn't sting initially that bad, it developed a pretty big bump. It could be that when tissue gets sandwiched between the BB and bone, the damage is worse. But I still don't think the BBs dent from hitting you. OTR: Now you are using a straw-man tactic. Please show me where I said a metal BB would be softer than a plastic one. I'll help you: I said a plastic BB would break on a hard target while a metal BB would not. The opposite of what you are claiming now. Skin is so soft that neither a metal or plastic BB will flex. I agree though, this stupid thread should have been closed after the first two replies. -Sale Edited February 28, 2007 by Sale Link to post Share on other sites
Md0ggyd0g Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 unless your using foam etc which is deformable. then density does play a slight part due to the internal make up of the material (lots of gaps) pentration in shells comes partialy from the imparted energy and also from the design of the projectile. also most cannon shells use the impact to melt the armour and crate shrapnel inside the vehicle. and noone using depleted uranuim armour. its to expesnive and slightly radioactive so is a bad thing to be inside. they use either rolled arour plate using stell and a blend of high stength alloys or reactive armour which deflects oaprt of the energy of the charges. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ...doesn't the US use DE armour (and as a mainstay as far as rounds go) on it's abrams? Link to post Share on other sites
TDS Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 dont overthink things the aluminium rounds have worse surface quality (as stated) and so are rougher, thats why they hurt more, not some wacky fringe science. Link to post Share on other sites
Carrion Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 tds. ill grant that a severely bad surface finish can hurt more but you rlooking ta a larger projectile with a knurled finsih or even outright burrs to realy dage soemone. the differences we are looking at are on the micron level and below (surface finish is normaly measure in .micro meters. to damage a barrel isnt that difficult with metal metal contact. to damage the human skin with a bb you need alot more power (as your seem to be fixated on this) to generate any form of injury. moggy. de shells are common in sabot rounds for the armour would you get intio somothing inherantly radioactive? Link to post Share on other sites
TDS Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 tds. ill grant that a severely bad surface finish can hurt more but you rlooking ta a larger projectile with a knurled finsih or even outright burrs to realy dage soemone. the differences we are looking at are on the micron level and below (surface finish is normaly measure in .micro meters. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> like I said before, try it there's a noticable difference in "grippyness" if you run the bb across skin. Link to post Share on other sites
scithe Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 huh... well this is an argument that is pretty old and has not gotten anywhere other than people stating their opinions and why they believe such things. so i would appreciate it if this argument would be resumed in the post designated for it. as for scratching the barrel, i discussed the matter with some freinds, teachers, and technical people at an airsoft store, and what they all seem to agree on is that the aluminum bb WILL scratch the barrel, but the scratches WILL NOT affect the accuracy because the scratches will be so shallow. however, the alu bb's mite wear out the hop-up bucking faster as zentaurus said. Link to post Share on other sites
zentaurus Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 yup, that's the main lookout. but that's almost, like, a no brainer. the deadend was cos, imo, we are separated by a common language . some were talking physics. others substrate, and still others engineering (strength of materials) . others still, including me, stayed subjective cos that's what "hurtfullness" is . after quite a bit of reaserch (surfing, digging up dusty books, and some ruminating ), i'm still with you -- aly makes a diff. anyway, had been interested in this since i first saw an ad so tx for taking on this subject. cheers, zT Link to post Share on other sites
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