VFC HK416C EBB?

[AFV]

Brief: Want to turn VFC 416C in EBB, can i use TM recoil shock? 

 

 

So i've always wanted an HK416C with blowback. However i cannot/will not buy the GBB 416C due to site restrictions & gas reliability, so this only leaves me with EBB

 

However the VFC 416C isn't blowback so i'l need to change the internals. Tokyo Marui do a recoil shock 416D and i would really like their system & internals due to reliability & realism (i intend to do more milsim). However im worried that this wont work so can any techie ease my doubts or am i just stupid.

 

 

[hwagan]

It's one of those 'Could be done, but only with £100's and a machine shop' projects unfortunately, and you wouldn't be able to use the 416C stock. Totally different systems and receivers - It'd be exceptionally difficult at the very best, with plenty of compromises and it really wouldn't be worth the hassle in the end

[PureSilver]

Like hwagan says, it could be done, but it would take a lot of time and money, and you would need access to (at a bare minimum) a lathe and and a mill and a skilled machinist to accompany them. There are a couple of major issues:

1. The VFC and TM receivers are not necessarily of particularly similar dimensions - for sure you're going to need to take a mill to either the gearbox or the receiver (or both) to get them to fit together. There's no guarantee that the various holes in the receivers are in the same place, either - your fire selectors could be significantly off in particular - and the TM HK416D uses an unusual geared system for its ambidextrous selector that will need to be milled into the VFC's receiver (not an easy job at all).
2. The HK416C has that gorgeous collapsing stock, which uses a shorter-than-average recoil system - and into which the stock TM recoil assembly has approximately no chance whatsoever of fitting. Compared to the rest of the modifications required, the work required on this would actually probably not be that challenging.

I would say that this is actually much easier if instead of trying to shoehorn the TM into the VFC, you instead modify the TM HK416D to HK416C status. That means you already have the receiver, gearbox, magazines, front end etc already resolved and proven to work - you're miles ahead compared to trying to fit the TM into the VFC's dress. To complete the modification, you would need:

1. To modify the TM from rear- to front-wired as there's no space for batteries in the rear; this shouldn't be too difficult as it's more or less identical internally to the front-wired SOPMOD.
2. To modify the TM's front end. You'd need to cut down the barrel drastically (not too difficult, obviously) but I'm not sure about how much the RIS needs to be cut down. A mill should make short work of the latter, though.
3. To modify the TM's buffer tube. I'd say that bluntly the only way you have any hope of doing this is to either make your own from scratch (the original is pot metal and a known weakness of Recoil Shock AR-15s) or to adapt the ARS/Echigoya buffer tube (billet aluminium) as the Recoil Shocks have a proprietary buffer tube design. You would need to cut it short and modify it to accept the VFC's tailcap (probably involving welding or gluing an adapter in place) or create a facsimile of the VFC's assembly better suited to the recoil weights. You would also need to relieve the VFC of its receiver endplate, and of course the stock itself.
4. To modify the TM's Recoil Shock weight assembly. The shortened buffer tube is actually not all that much shorter; I think replacing the weight with an appropriately designed chunk of brass would solve this problem as long as you kept the total weights similar; if it was short enough you wouldn't need to adjust the system's stroke.
5. To modify the TM's lower receiver. I'd guess that after all this you'd want to have the receiver blasted, and then have those stock mounts welded on, then CeraKote it and have it laser-engraved with the correct markings.

Honestly? I'd love to see it done.

[AFV]

hmmmmmm.....well this sends things tits up.

 

Changing the 416D into a C may seem the best idea. As i could change the rails by simply swapping them with the VFC one.

 

 

However i a am not fussed about spending the money to make it EBB. However i simply dont have the technical capabilities of messing about with the receiver and im not that confident that i could do all the upgrades and do the 416C justice.

 

I suppose this is one of my (many) ''i would if i could'' ideas.

[AFV]

Just going to double post for the hell of it.

 

So using the Tokyo Marui Recoil Shock is out of the question however what about a normal EBB system, such as the G&G?

 

 

Surely that would work (and be simpler)? 

[PureSilver]

However i a am not fussed about spending the money to make it EBB. However i simply dont have the technical capabilities of messing about with the receiver and im not that confident that i could do all the upgrades and do the 416C justice. [...] I suppose this is one of my (many) ''i would if i could'' ideas.

Well, if you're not fussed about spending the money, pay someone on here to do it. I have absolutely no doubt that Docv400 on this forum could make it happen for you; I think he has access to the relevant tools needed. Hell, give it a couple of weeks and I could probably make it happen for you; I have access to a machine shop and a ex-Navy machinist. You would need, however, to factor in the cost of buying both a VFC HK416C and a TM HK416D and what I imagine would be fifteen to twenty hours of work.

 

So using the Tokyo Marui Recoil Shock is out of the question however what about a normal EBB system, such as the G&G? [...] Surely that would work (and be simpler)?

 

I think that you might be able to do that, though of course, it wouldn't be as good - I don't know if you've shot both but the blowback guns aren't anything like as powerful as the Recoil Shocks. As far as I know, the G&G blowback gearbox will fit a standard V2 lower receiver but the blowback mechanism rides on the spine of the gearbox and therefore you need to use the special upper that accompanies it. G&G make a 'HK416' blowback (the TopTech T416) which is a pretty dreadful replica visually but is (like all TopTechs) essentially a brilliant gun. If you were to buy a G&G T416 and a VFC HK416C, you should be able to:

• Remove the gearbox and upper receiver from the T416, and remove the front set from the upper receiver.
• Remove the gearbox and upper receiver from the HK416C, and remove the front set from the upper receiver.
• Place the T416's gearbox in the HK416C's lower receiver.
• Fit the HK416C's front set to the T416's upper receiver.
• Place the T416's upper on the HK416C's lower.

That should leave you with a HK416C with blowback gearbox, and a pile of parts you could build into a T416 with a VFC upper receiver and gearbox.

 

N.B.: I do not know for sure whether the G&G blowback gearbox will fit inside the VFC lower receiver. I do know that

like the Recoil Shocks do. I don't know for sure whether the G&G upper receiver will fit the VFC lower, either.

[AFV]

Money cost doesn't bother me, Nor does the time it takes to build it. 

 

My only concern about turning the TM 416D into a 416C is the looks. Im worried that it wouldn't look right and that is currently gnawing at my thoughts about it like a cancer.

 

I mean im just tearing my hair out currently about what to do, do i go all out and go blowback or do i simply admit defeat and quit the idea. 

[PureSilver]

If either of my rifles cost less than £1,000 I'd be in a position to tell you... 

 

I'd give Docv400 a try first - I won't be free for a few weeks at a bare minimum, and it would take me a while to get it all figured out. I think labour's going to be closer to £100 than £30, and once you add on the receiver painting and marking I think it's going to be more like £1200. But, I think you should be able to make £200 easy selling the HK416D's original stock, buffer tube and RIS, and I'd be very surprised if you can't get £200 more for the rest of the HK416C; really, it might be worth your while to buy a second-hand HK416D (they are around in the classifieds occasionally) since to have it laser engraved correctly you're going to have to completely strip the finish anyway. It also might be worth asking VFC if they'll sell you just the stock, stock tube, and RIS.

 

[EDIT]I should add - BEFORE spending any money, you should try to get hands on the HK416C. How that tailcap assembly is put together will make a big difference to the cost and feasibility of this project. Definitely don't spend a single, solitary penny without having a look at the Recoil Shock assembly close up yourself and seeing how it all fits together.[/EDIT]

[AFV]

If either of my rifles cost less than £1,000 I'd be in a position to tell you... 

 

I'd give Docv400 a try first - I won't be free for a few weeks at a bare minimum, and it would take me a while to get it all figured out. I think labour's going to be closer to £100 than £30, and once you add on the receiver painting and marking I think it's going to be more like £1200. But, I think you should be able to make £200 easy selling the HK416D's original stock, buffer tube and RIS, and I'd be very surprised if you can't get £200 more for the rest of the HK416C. It might be worth asking VFC if they'll sell you just the stock, stock tube, and RIS.

 

VFC refuse to sell any parts for the 416C. If they only sold  parts, the only thing people would buy would be the stock. Its why you have to buy the whole thing for the parts.

 

Still tearing my hair out over this though, how people think of customizing their guns and not blowing a cap is beyond me....

[PureSilver]

Ah, VFC not selling the stock separately is a pain in the *albartroth*. My SOPMOD will be in bits (again) soon as it goes for a total internal upgrade, including the SURUS recoil system (which requires disassembly of the recoil unit). I can take some measurements of bore and stroke if you like and do some sums on how short the recoil weight would have to be to fit in the HK416C's abbreviated buffer extension, and how dense it would have to be to maintain the correct mass.

 

I really want to see this done, so don't despair!

 

[EDIT]Another thing you need to know is whether the HK416C's stock will fit the HK416D's receiver - specifically, you need the TM's lower receiver to be no (or only very, very slightly) wider than the VFC's. That's something you should be able to measure by PMing forum members - have a look at the review threads for the HK416D to find an owner, and ask him to get the callipers out. I think the VFC's lower is the same width as their other HK416s, so any VFC HK416 owner's measurements should do.[/EDIT]

[AFV]

PureSilver, any help you offer me will be greatly accepted.

 

Just looking at an overview of the 2, it could/would be pretty easy to change the TM handguard with the VFC 416C. As for the recoil system, im having chats with some techie mates and they said that if the springs for the recoil shock go in the buffer tube, then you could shorten the buffer tube down and attach the VFC 416C stock on the end. If the springs are too big then i could simply swap them for smaller ones (assuming thats how the recoil shock works).

 

 

VFC 416C:

 

 

 

TM HK416D (recoil shock):

 

[PureSilver]

The front end is pretty simple, and complicated only by the fact that the Recoil Shocks use a proprietary hop-up unit which requires a proprietary barrel. That means that instead of just switching in the VFC's barrel you'll need to shorten (cut, rethread - easy job) the existing barrel to the desired length. The rest of the VFC's frontset (the RIS, FSB, faux piston assembly) should just bolt up without any issues.

 

In terms of the rear, it's more problematic. Again, the Recoil Shocks use proprietary parts - the buffer tube - which means that the VFC's simply wouldn't fit the TM even if the recoil assembly did fit inside it, which it won't. The Recoil Shock's buffer tube isn't full of springs like a real AR-15's is, it's full of weight and spring which means that you can't just cut the buffer tube short and trim the springs - you need to replace the weight with something shorter (again, shouldn't be too hard). I'll take some photos for you of the buffer tube etc - my guess is that the best bet will be to have a revised buffer tube and recoil weight drawn up in CAD and then have them machined for you so that they just replace the original parts.

[AFV]

yea that sounds like a good idea. Just asking, what the *fruitcage* is CAD?

[PureSilver]

Computer Aided Design - 3D blueprints.

[AFV]

gotcha, also i think the stock may not be as complicated as it looks:

 

 

 

Look at how the wire stock connects to the buffer tube. If what i can see is correct, the wire stock system clamps onto the buffer tube of the 416C. Therefore as long as the buffer tube isn't too long i could simply detach the clamp system and attach it to the TM buffer tube with zero fuss. 

 

Maybe this will be pretty simple

[PureSilver]

Yep. The problem is that the buffer tube is much too long on the 416D - the C has a proprietary short buffer tube custom-designed for the gun. It's not just the length - the TM's buffer tube isn't round, it's keyhole-shaped (to fit the collapsible stock slots) and you'd need a mill to change that, so the stock won't fit over the TM's buffer tube. Worse, the TM's buffer is all one cylinder, and therefore doesn't particularly resemble the capped part fitted to the VFC.

 

It could be possible to modify the TM's buffer tube by cutting it short, threading the end (to accept the VFC's cap) and milling the offending mounting points for the collapsible assembly off, but equally it would be a lot easier to just start with a bit of aluminium tube - it's not a hard part to make!

[AFV]

Yea, pretty simple job. 

 

Now when really think about this project, its not that hard at all. All you need is a few braincells and your away

[vorpalbunnie]

You could maybe cram the SCAR's recoil engine in there. It uses the ambidextrous V2 gearbox, but it's recoil engine is more like the G36/AK series in that it is mounted about the gearbox. It might be easier than the buffer tube mods, but only if the receiver is tall enough.

[PureSilver]

I thought about that, actually. It's not a bad idea but compared to the buffer tube mod it's not much easier. Firstly, you still need to buy a TM HK416D (for the receivers) and the VFC HK416C (for the stock and front end) so adding a SCAR to that is just added cost. Also, milling out the upper receiver (for the weight) is going to be at least as much work as making a custom buffer tube, but with none of the certainty of success.

[AFV]

Hey PS, seeing as you own a Marui 416D can you answer me this: Can the 416D take an 11.1v lipo? 

 

(such as this one: http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/kong-power-111v-1000mah-20c-single-rechargable-lipo-battery)

[stewpidbear]

No., mate single or twin stick only in the stock. Might fit in the copy of the Troy Ax stock though.

[PureSilver]

Like stewpidbear says, definitely not a brick LiPo like that in its original configuration. The HK416D is rear-wired as stock (though it wouldn't be as an HK416C) and therefore you would need a single-stick, or preferably butterfly twin stick to fit in the battery tubes of the E1 'clubfoot' stock. The HK416D (like any Recoil Shock) also won't last long if you just attach it to an 11.1v LiPo and don't modify the rest of the gun; it will destroy the internals. It would be much happier with a 7.4v LiPo or even a 9.9v LiFe than an 11.1v anything.

[blobface]

Don't put a 11.1 on a stock Marui gun... there's just no need, someone on my team had a brand new next-gen SOCOM (essentially the same as SOPMOD but front wired with classic furnitures) which piston stripped to bits after one game on 11.1v, a good 7.4v is great with the anything next-gen, especially if you don't obsess over FPS and keep it shooting 300. 

[stewpidbear]

My Socom is getting on for 2~3 years old now, always run on a 7.4 lipo with stock internals apart from an E6 spring (going a nice 320fps), with no problems what so ever.As stated you really do boy need an 11.1 lipo. My TM416 is going great with a 7.4 lipo.

[AFV]

fair point, the thing is i was asking because im going to have to wire it to the front in a peq box (like the VFC) and i needed to know if it could take it. Seeing as it can't i'l just use a 7.4v peq type.