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Dagonet

Race gun tuning

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As the title says, i am planning on doing up a TM G17, this will be for game use not a pure ISPC racer.

 

Some questions on how parts interact as i dont fully understand there operation and havent found the information i am after.

 

So i have a near stock TM G17, i chose this due to its simple design and low drag benefits, (hammerless and not covered in lots of safetys that can get snagged) also not being metal will work better in the UK climate.

 

Things i have learnt, metal guns hate the cold, metal slides over stock use more gas and need stronger springs to cycle, stronger springs also use more gas, more weight = more recoil (i am after less recoil) some brands have a high stock FPS but lack a bit in accuracy (metal slides/recoil/hop) then you have TM which lack a bit of FPS but have a better effective range.

 

In stock form my G17 can hold it's own against AEGs for range, i have sleeved and extended the stock outer barrel and now have a 1911/Hi cappa 6.03 nineball barrel in place, at 17c it shoots 280 fps with .2 on green gas.

 

I am trying to maximise the performance, next step was going to be a Nine ball hop rubber, and maybe a new piston head.

 

Piston heads, how do they function ? all i can find out is they enhance recoil and maybe use less gas ? i looked at the Nineball Dyna (wont fit) and am curious about the spring that sits behind the piston, my G17 does not have a sprung piston, is this meerly a difference between model of gun ? and blowback unit, is there any benefit to an upgraded Piston head (PDI/NineBall/Silverback) over the stock TM one, other than more recoil and to help heavier metal slides ? would a wrap of PTFE tape round the head then replace the oring have a similar effect ? also alloy over plastic is there a major benefit of one over the other ?

 

Loading nozzle, i have seen enhanced kits with a piston head for sale, however these use the stock rocket valve from what i have, is there really any benefit getting one until the stock nozzle breaks ?

 

I have seen the trigger adjustment tweek and may well try that to shorten the pull, i have also seen the recoil buffer tweeks as well, and am thinking of trying it out, i was debating about short stroking for less recoil and snappier follow up shots.

 

Has anyone out there done any porting work to the slide ? done within reason i assume this would lighten the slide, decrease recoil, and give a faster cycle time, done wrongly the slide will break, although stock TM slides are not expensive so am happy to try that one out.

 

I like to use my pistols, and use it left handed as well, so a short stroked low recoil but playable pistol floats my boat :) i have been through the Glock picture threads and most of the tuning work is to "K" series not TM's and seems to involve parts lists but not much about parts function (unless you have a kwa/ksc)

 

I have learnt that although a single part upgrade over stock can lead to a gain in FPS, this is not multiplyed by more upgrades, so a gain of 5fps from a hop rubber, 20 from a barrel, 5 from a piston head et etc, well those single parts equal 30fps there interaction all together will not see 30fps but you will gain more consistency which means more accuracy.

 

Over time i will be getting a magwell, and maybe trying some stippling, a small comp may appear to cover the barrel extension, and maybe cast a frame weight to help counter recoil, depending on how things pan out maybe a revised outer barrel and longer inner.

 

Any feedback and help from the world of Race guns, or anyone who has gone down this path as well ?

 

I thank you in advance for any help or information.

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I'm after a similar goal with my TM G17, although a little less effort perhaps. I'm not going quite as far, but so far i've done the following to my G17;

 

Nineball 6.03mm Tightbore

Nineball Strike face

Stippled grip/Trigger guard

TM G17C slide (ported) over the stock version

 

Here's a piccy;

 

P1000597.jpg

 

The tightbore has upped the FPS to about 305 on an average day - On this recently passed Sunday, it was running 265FPS in about 5c; Even at that FPS and temperature, the slide was insanely quick. I really don't see much need for a quicker cycle time, as my trigger finger simply wouldn't be able to keep up - But then, that's down to me not the gun. I'd say the ported G17C slide (i was lucky enough to get a TM G17C top half on a Standard G17 frame when i bought it) makes a slight difference to the standard slide, but not by a lot.

 

Stippling definitely gives a more positive grip and looks rather nice - The way i've done it suits my grip and shooting style perfectly.

 

The Strike face, although mainly just for looks, also has the benefit of reducing felt recoil due to added weight on the front of the gun - That and it looks mean as hell. It's also proven useful when firing from behind pallets, as i can shove the glock solidly up against the planks to line the barrel up right in the gap between them and fire through pallets without worrying about BB's ricocheting back.

 

I'm planning on a Nineball hop rubber, as well as a Magwell and a couple of other external tweaks - Threaded barrel to cover an extra inch of inner barrel perhaps... When you say sleeved, how exactly do you mean? I'd be quite interested to see if you've got a pic. I don't want to play with the internals too much, as the gun performs perfectly as it is. Even on the cold Sunday it was matching AEG's for range.

 

Hope that's some help.

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Piston head is just there to enhance seal, when the gas comes out of the mag it'll want to go to the path of least resistance(most leak), so by helping the head seal better with the nozzle you are helping to direct more gas into the chamber side to push your BB out. It should also help recoil since whatever gas that's left when the floating valve shuts off the flow will be used to push the slide to cycle. The reason why most replaces it because TM has a molded skirt piston, and most aftermarket ones are O-ring type. It should mean a more consistent seal with less blow by. Loading nozzle for most cases is just a durability issue. If the stock one works and its not broken, might as well keep it.

 

The spring behind the piston is the nozzle spring, its just there to pull the nozzle back to ensure the next round chambers. In most cases you don't necessarily need it. If you have a tighter hop-up rubber however, it might be grabbing onto the nozzle tighter and you might have issue.

 

My G17 right now runs a stock length 6.01mm PDI TBB, Nine-Ball hop, AS nozzle and piston(I think its AS piston, not sure now), upgraded hammer and recoil spring and steel slide, so I am not exactly what you are after, since the gun kicks pretty good. ~17-20 deg C I am running about 280 fps on .25 with propane. The hammer spring is optional though for me I am getting light strike when weather gets warm, so its somewhat of a must for me(same issue with my TM G26, and G18C.).

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feedback yeaaa.

 

Questions and answers, i am after information to compare against what i have and maybe plan to do, and mostly because i can tinker with the G17 for fun.

 

hwagan, i have seen your G17 elsewhere on here, i too used ESC to get mine from, i got the lower frame from a Custom, as a while back Tan G17 where on special, i missed the last one so Mike sort of made one and i went to vist and collect it, i have wondered about the difference between the ported slide and standard slide and is there any benefit to a few grams of plastic being shaved off, more for a reduction in felt recoil but cycle speed is good.

 

I guess you have the stock length 97mm barrel in 6.03 the 1911/hi cappa 5.1 is 112.5mm length in mine, so i reckon only a slight gain on your set up for the extra 15mm. I toyed with going to 6.01 but that was PDI and dearer, and i have read through the debates on 6.01 v 6.03 in pistols. Out right power gain go 6.01 maybe fussy on BBs and fussy about dirt. Then we have 6.03 slightly less power gain, "maybe?" more accurate than a .01 depending on BB's, although a .03 should be less fussy there, and being used for gaming will cope with dirty BB's when its raining and muddy.

 

Liking the strike plate, was that from a UK shop ? like your thinking behinds it use, that appeals to me. It looks fairly light in weight, but reduces felt recoil, thats the feedback i am after, so will look into a frame weight/semi plate (home made) set up.

 

I will take some photos later in the week of the barrel, heres what i did, i drilled out the muzzle of the stock plastic outer barrel, and drilled several 3mm holes on the underside as well, i pushed in a 3" length of a Easton Autumn orange 2512 arrow shaft (i did lots of archery before) then injected hotmelt glue into the 3mm holes, bit of brass/copper pipe that fitted over the out hanging arrow shaft and i had a 30mm extension.

 

However i then find out that a 5" barrel is not 5" or about 120mm, the quoted barrel length is more to do with slide length so a 5" barrel is really 112.5mm (i think a 6" is 138mm not 150mm and 7" is 162.5 not about 170mm) i learn as i go on.

 

Or to put it another way, buy the screw in silencer adaptor and that should give you enough coverage for a 5" barrel ( bit of a faff but they should self tap into the plastic outer barrel) i did it the hard way because it was free.

 

I did get a Nineball rubber, but it sort of fell into my Mk23 instead, it's very happy there and all bedded in, was after info reguarding there use and pistons heads in TM G17s the rubber seems a no brainer, but unsure on if the piston heads are really any better than stock marui ones. Like you i have noticed that the more you upgrade a TM the less reliable it gets, metal slides, springs etc etc, if i can make some small tweeks and boost overall performance thats my goal. Mines about a year old, been run on green gas and dosent suffer with leaky mags or really notice cold weather.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

EDIT another reply....Wow thanks to Racing Maniac as well, a race gunner :)

 

Thanks for explaining the interaction of the piston head on blowback/powering the BB, thats the info i was after, although all info is handy, i am not going down the path of high flow mag valves, the extra power would be nice, but i dont have to power heavy springs or metal slide, the main goal is to maximise the power already in use, and still retain TMs reliable build, even though i am using green gas not 134a :) so a piston head will be on the plan.

I have read through the 1911/2011/Glock picture threads, your self and Romulus, junior, viciousv10 and others are good reading, from you i have learnt that absolute power/FPS and accuracy are hard to combine, the more you upgrade the more can go wrong, i am very tempted to go nuts sell everything and build up a matched pair of combat racers, this is my learning curve for now.

Thanks for your feedback and all your other work on pistols (hero worship bit over now )

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The only reason why I use 6.01 is because its PDI, I'd love to buy their 6.05s, but they are hard to find now. I just like the brand, they have good stuff in general. I've never gone around to tune a pistol for longer than a room distance(25-30ft max), so my tuning may or maynot be applicable to most. 6.01 is good enough for that range for grouping....

 

As far as hi-flow goes, I never used them and if you really want you can mod stock one to be high flow, so I tend not to bother with them...

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I went with Nineball 6.03 mostly on price, that and at the moment i use whatever BB's come to hand. The more i get into the pistols the greater chance i will start buying BB's just for them, a bit of quality to get the best out of the pistol, and not the random bulk bags i have been getting. Maybe later another barrel if i get the urge for more power so that would be a PDI.

Starting to swing more to .25 now, really tempted to try some .29 SGMs but they are £13 for 500 against the £9.50 i get 5000 .25 for.

 

From reading through the other picture threads it seems PDI gear is King, high chance i will opt for there alloy piston as i havent found any real neagative comments on them.

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A photo for hwagan smile.gif (using the forum file attachment for photos, trying different sizes to see what works, make the most of the file memory as i have never got hosting sites to work for me, i hate computers ! ) (Edit, thats not to bad a photo size, can squeeze a few more into the folder now)

 

 

My barrel extension, home made and free for me.

 

Ok in the photo 1 TM G17 stripped down, the silver barrel is the nineball 112.5mm and the brass barrel is the stock 97mm TM one, they are lined up to show the difference in length.

 

On the left is a bit of orange alloy arrow shaft and the smaller off cut above that is from an old brass curtain pole, it was nice fit over the orange bit.

 

I did all this as i didnt know at the time that barrel length equates to the slide length, a silencer adaptor should give enough coverage on a G17 to run a 5" barrel.

So i zipped a 10mm drill through the plastic outer muzzle, then forced in the orange shaft, and test fired, although it was hard to insert, after several shots it was spat out, to counter this i drilled 6 x 3mm holes on the underside of the slide, pushed the orange shaft back in and injected hot melt glue. Test fired, it stayed in place, so next i glued on a length of the curtain pole, this gave me a 30mm over stock extension, and did look a bit odd. I played the pistol like this with the stock barrel in place with no problems, it shot straight and didnt jam the slide. After chatting to Mike at ESC, i went with the 5" Nineball the only 6" in stock was PDI and was quite dearer (quality product).

After fitting the barrel i trimmed back my extension to 18mm down from 30mm which is as you see in the photo. During the firing cycle the outer barrel tilts upwards, and the inner barrel moves.

 

With the slide forward for firing the inner barrel is 12mm from the muzzle. With the slide locked back it is 5mm from the muzzle. I can trim 5mm off the extension and not have the inner barrel poke out.

I may well leave alone, if in the future i opt to try out a 6" i have a perfect base to lock on a short home made compensator. I have seen other G18c's with a similar set up to mine with the barrel slotted, so may do that for looks.

In hindsight an adaptor will do the same, i didnt want to buy an alloy outer barrel and find out it wouldnt work, the stock TM outer is cheap to replace if i got it really wrong and i now know what works, then again it's only cost me some time so quite happy with how it turned out.

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Well the baby steps continue... i played over the weekend and the G17 with 6.03 barrel was good for 30meters, it was able to go further but not effective. Reasons being, hop not dialled in, windy, inner/outer barrel slack.

 

Yes bit mad, pistol for 30+ meter engagements but fun, makes you think more and faster.

 

So before any shopping for rubbers and piston heads, i have worked on the slack barrel interface (double wrap of tape, smear of grease on the inner barrel)

 

I also played with short stroking using the hose pipe modification. WOW ran 2 mags with no jams or feed issues, will be looking into this more as the reduced recoil was very noticeable indeed. Less recoil=less muzzle flip=more accuracy at longer range this is my goal. So a maybe a reduction in slide weight will be next. Will have to remove the BBU and get the scales out.

 

Some random information. From what i have learnt, stock auto fire version Glocks run about 20 RPS (rounds per second) in the Glock picture thread a K series was bumped to about 30RPS then again up 41RPS. The slide moves very fast so you dont really need to modify it. However the airsoft experince for a lot of people is Massive recoil, so a heavy slide and BBU will create this, if i lighten this i will have less recoil, some would find the pistol boring to shoot, but i want to hit what i aim at, and hit it fast.

 

The TMG17 has a total slide travel of 43mm. The slide lock on empty mag is at 38mm.

I tried a piece of hose pipe over the recoil spring and was surprised how well it worked for a bodge job.

A 15mm bit of hose = 31mm slide travel.

A 20mm bit of hose = 25mm slide travel.

And a big reduction in recoil/muzzle flip.

 

To try and show what i mean have a look at this

this is full on IPSC race gun speed shooting, the video shows the recoil difference between a stock pistol and a short stroked tuned pistol, the redot jumping about is recoil and muzzle flip, it makes sense when you watch the vid by Sharkshooter2011.

 

I like playing with pistols, while not going the full race gun path, i am trying to take elements from that for skirmishing, the video i hope will show what i hope to get. biggrin.gif

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Sorry, i've somehow managed to miss this thread; Really interesting work so far Dagonet - At a rough guess percentage wise, how much quicker would you say the cycle is with 25mm of travel? I'm guessing the trigger mechanism still resets and only slide lock is affected?

 

You're definitely putting more work into this than i am, but it's given me a few ideas. I've reached the conclusion i can't have the outer barrel going into or past the strike face, as it'll catch during the cycle, which is a tad irritating as it pretty much cancels out any possibility of extending the inner barrel. I'm keeping the face on there for looks and shooting through pallets (there's a lot at my site) more than anything, but i still think there's a few useful tweaks i can make.. Magwell is definitely next on the list.

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I think the limit of short stroking is only how far it needs to move back to chamber the next BB. One of the guy around here managed to get it to basically tune his Hi-Capa just to move past the mag lip.

 

At that point you are more worried about to make sure the nozzle does not stick in the Hop-up for too long.

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To be honest, i dont think i would notice the trigger response, i did straight off notice a drop in recoil.

 

If the auto Glocks are doing 20+ RPS then a stock G17 slide action will be fast enough. Its a puzzle that i am getting through, the fun part is that one change will affect other parts of the pistols operation, however i may not notice or benefit from some changes, i can not pull the trigger 20 times a second so for me a fast slide cycle is a side effect of aiming for less recoil by short stroking, maybe by shedding some weight from the slide and the added increase in cycle speed from that will be noticed.... i dont know ? i cant test for it or prove my findings other than " it feels faster"

 

The measurements i have given are rough guides, going beyond a 20mm spacer will need carefull working out.

The slide travel will reset the trigger first at about 8mm, the hammer resets about 16/17mm and the loading nozzle and BB pick up clears the mag at about 19/20mm the BB is now ready to be scooped up.

Due to the nature of using a bit of hose pipe for a spacer i wouldnt try to short stroke further. The pipe is rough cut, uneven edges and compresses, and moves about on the recoil spring guide rod. For what it is, a bodge up it worked well, 50 rds with no stoppages or misses.

 

There is a natural sticking point in the slide travel, i think this is the reset/cocking hump in the bottom of the BBU catching on the hammer roller bearing or trigger reset sear ? the slide will hold open at 21mm of travel when pulled back by hand, a very gentle tap or shake will release it, normal firing is not affected.

 

As RacingManiac has pointed out, you need to make sure the loading nozzle has time to clear as it appears (from cycling by hand watching) to stick slightly some times, maybe to much grease in the BBU, a good reason not to over do things and start miss firing.

 

Going to knock up some compensators at the weekend, more for looks, and to see if the G17 will cycle ok with added weight, from looking around at real Glock racers anything up to 2" goes biggrin.gif

 

As to losing the slide lock, no biggy, i have a bag of black BBs for gaming, so 22 blacks with 3 whites to show when firing time to change mag, like a tracer, bit of a faff but works well.

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Brian Enos said something along the lines of "it doesn't matter much much muzzle flip there is; focus on your technique such that the sight tracks back to where it lifted off from the same way everything you pull the trigger."

Keep in mind that the more bling you deck out your pistol in, the more momentum it'll have, and the harder it'll be to switch between targets. It'll also be harder to stop the pistol once the sights are on the target. That's what I've learned when I shot a stage with my friend's limited class G35 and then did the same with my production class G34. If you're a big guy then it won't be as much of an issue.

 

EDIT:

 

Since you're already making this into an open gun, I would remove the trigger safety, add a pre-travel limiting set screw, then add an over-travel stop. I'd also polish anything that the trigger bar and hammer sear touches. What sights are you using? If you're using stock sights, I suggest modifying the rear notch so it's wider, thin out the front sight, and mill out the sides of the rear sight. This'll increase your visual inputs.

 

When you add the magwell, make sure it's mated correctly, and bevel the inside of the stock magwell. It'll give you some more tolerance with the angles you can insert the mags at.

 

If you're good with epoxy, I would shape a beavertail on the frame as well. Stipple it to match the rest of the frame, spray it down with black duracoat and you're good to go. Now you can ride your pistol higher. You can also modify the grip angle if the pistol doesn't point as naturally as you'd like. You can test it by lowering your pistol, looking at an object, closing your eyes, and then point the pistol at the object. If your sights are perfectly on target when you open your eyes, then you're good to go. Production and limited class shooters like myself have to readjust to the grip angle if we're not used to it, but since you're making an open gun, you can just modify the gun to suit your behavior!

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Some nice details there r.ocelot, thank you for the input.

 

The basic aim is to push the TM G17 to where i want it, but have a simple reliable pistol for game play over a full blown race gun.

 

The sights will be stock G17, not going down the red dot route on this pistol, simple sights and easy to holster. The details on modifying the sight picture was very interesting, handy that TMs come with 2 sets of open sights to play with.

 

The inclusion of the video link may have caused some confusion, a full on open class race gun is not the ultimate goal, however i am trying to take elements of them and create a combat/gaming version.

All one step at a time, multiple mods may cause problems done all at once, so i am learning the effect of each mod and how the pistol interacts with it, then move on to the next one.

 

The compensators, will be fairly lightweight, i may later try a longer barrel this is more for that, i have heard that Glocks are fussy with extra weight on the barrel, so it may fail.

 

Thanks for the tips and ideas though, very interesting stuff.

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A compensator will reduce your cycling speed, since the extra weight increases the barrel unlocking time. Glock aren't especially fussy with this, just something inherent in all modified-browning-action pistols.

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I will bear that in mind. Going to try it anyway as i wont be buying a comp, just making one. I did read somewhere that the Hi-cappa series can be modded to stop barrel tilt/movement to gain a faster cycle. But that is on metal internals, i am using the stock TM plastic outer barrel and thats maybe too much to go wrong to start playing with that. I see the breech/chamber has to unlock from the slide, so yes more weight on the barrel = equals more drag in the cycle. Good tip, thanks.

 

I noted earlier that the slide seems to have a natural sticking point, testing on green gas wasnt a problem.

I have tried it tonight on 134a and the slide has hung up every time on the BB, i even warmed up the mag in my pocket for an hour, still failed to cycle, i have put the shorter spacer back in and the pistol cycles everytime now. The loading nozzle had not fully retracted from the hop rubber, so maybe this will be an issue in colder weather, so shorter spacer more slide travel, no more issues.

 

I guess the action is to gentle on 134a, the violent nature of Green gas was not a problem, so another look at spacer size then, hang ups or miss fires are no good in the middle of a game. A clean up of the guts of the BBU will also happen, as it may be gummed up slightly.

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I have stripped the G17 down. I will put the sticking nozzle down to lube ! in the piston head chamber(lack of). Something that needs more regular checking if the pistol is used a lot.

 

Now i have had another look i see the difference between a TM head and a O-ring after market head (thanks to Racingmaniac) even with an upgraded head i would still do a full strip down and regrease/lube on the head/nozzle to maintain peak performance.

 

Some weights then.

 

Stock TM slide with Night sights. 38 grams.

Stock TM complete Blowback unit/loading nozzle. 58grams.

Stock TM complete Slide/sights/BBU. 96grams.

 

I am aware of a lightweight BBU for hi-cappas trying to find the weight, maybe about 30grams?

 

Will be back in a few days after i have time to play about with things.

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Hey, thanks for looking at my SVI Infinity theadsmile.gif

 

here's a link to the WGC shop for a firefly floating valve and piston head set: click

 

The piston head uses an o-ring, and from my experience with my MEU build; the O-ring acts much better than the stock piston 'lid'. However, I used a dyna piston head in mine as well as a shooters design POM nozzle. The fitting between the o-ring and the inner part of the nozzle is near 100% perfect fit. Coupled with the fact that the o-ring expands due to the ported piston head of the dyna piston; I believe it's the closest to 'perfect' air seal in my MEU.

 

Unfortunately I can't find a SD nozzle for Marui Glocks...nonetheless, try using the firefly piston head with the stock nozzle and see if there's a large gap between the nozzle and the o-ring.

 

EDIT: I found an Airsoft Surgeon super hard nozzle for glocks. But for MEUs, the AS nozzle apparently have a worst air seal between the nozzle head and the stock marui bucking...so the dimensions of the nozzle head are smaller, translating to gas inefficiency for any kind of aftermarket bucking out there. I don't know whether the glock nozzle is the same but I am betting that it is).

Don't install the floating valve that comes with the firefly set. For the MEU firefly floating valve, it apparently increases your FPS by about 10-20 but it uses more gas. Since you'll be playing winter games (right?) I think a higher gas consumption is not what you want.

 

Does the nine ball hop up rubber fit the glock? If it does; get that too since it provides the best airseal in my opinion. It will also raise the FPS without any disadvantages since you're making your glock more efficient with the gas usage. I would think matching it with the NB 6.03mm TB would provide the best airseal...since its the same brand (just a guess).

 

I don't know whether there are aftermarket parts for the rubber air seal for glock mags. If there are and if you can find info that they also provide a better air seal than the stock rubber, then I'll suggest switching that too to maximise the air seal of the whole gas route in your glock assembly; from mag to the tip of your barrel.

 

If you find that the nozzle and o-ring piston head (firefly) have a near perfect fit; I suggest not to add any lube into the BBU assembly. For my MEU build, I realised that without ANY grease or oil on my gun; it actually performed BETTER than lubing it up. See my thread here for details.

 

Anyway, keep us informed of your build and hopefully you can build the glock that performs to the specs you want biggrin.gif

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Intinerious, i have been back to your SVI thread, reply there as well biggrin.gif

 

 

Rebuilt the Glock for testing, only got 134a to hand and it's rather cold, it will short stroke anyway now.

 

Will get some photos when i take it apart again of the BBU, not sure if it was worth the effort, managed to remove about 6 grams of material from the BBU will weigh it later. Having second thoughts about working the slide, as it's plastic i would only be able to remove a few grams, after playing with the BBU i dont think it's worth the effort or will have little effect.

 

In theory as it's lighter it should be more efficient, i suspect i would not notice or feel any extra difference and the use of gas would be to small to notice.

 

Intinerious, yes the Nine ball hop rubber fits glocks/226 the router will not fit glock mags only 1911/2011/226 i was hoping there would be more cross over and common part sharing on TM pistols, i was wrong, this applys to piston heads, seems the G17 is different again, the Nineball Dyna only has listings for TM G26s not 17s, so it will be a PDI or Sliverback head there.

And sticking with Nine ball barrel/hop rubber as you say keep it Nine ball for best results, after reading through the technical information in sniping haven, it points to a one brand set up, mixing parts from other companies dosent always work well. I did get a rubber but it fell into my Mk23 instead and it's very happy there, after trying the Teflon tape mod in my 2 AEGs and getting good results from that i have taped both pistol hop units as well.

 

The mod is PTFE tape or plumbers/gas fitter tape, with the hop rubber on the barrel do 2 wraps, sealing the rubber onto the barrel and removing any airleak, dont do to much or you will not be able to put the hop unit back together, and tape over where the hop arm will sit, just enough to seal the rubber to the barrel, i learnt that from the snipers, it's free, it works and improves gas flow down the barrel.

 

Also with keeping cost down i am keeping the stock TM nozzle, i will change it if it breaks.

 

 

Well i gassed a mag and it's been in my pocket for an hour, just let rip a mag full lefthanded, about 10m with a jacket for a target, double tapped and snap shooting, cycles fine, the dip in recoil now i guess is more to being cold and using 134a

 

Time for some shopping.

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Intinerious, i have been back to your SVI thread, reply there as well biggrin.gif

 

 

Rebuilt the Glock for testing, only got 134a to hand and it's rather cold, it will short stroke anyway now.

 

Will get some photos when i take it apart again of the BBU, not sure if it was worth the effort, managed to remove about 6 grams of material from the BBU will weigh it later. Having second thoughts about working the slide, as it's plastic i would only be able to remove a few grams, after playing with the BBU i dont think it's worth the effort or will have little effect.

 

In theory as it's lighter it should be more efficient, i suspect i would not notice or feel any extra difference and the use of gas would be to small to notice.

 

Intinerious, yes the Nine ball hop rubber fits glocks/226 the router will not fit glock mags only 1911/2011/226 i was hoping there would be more cross over and common part sharing on TM pistols, i was wrong, this applys to piston heads, seems the G17 is different again, the Nineball Dyna only has listings for TM G26s not 17s, so it will be a PDI or Sliverback head there.

And sticking with Nine ball barrel/hop rubber as you say keep it Nine ball for best results, after reading through the technical information in sniping haven, it points to a one brand set up, mixing parts from other companies dosent always work well. I did get a rubber but it fell into my Mk23 instead and it's very happy there, after trying the Teflon tape mod in my 2 AEGs and getting good results from that i have taped both pistol hop units as well.

 

The mod is PTFE tape or plumbers/gas fitter tape, with the hop rubber on the barrel do 2 wraps, sealing the rubber onto the barrel and removing any airleak, dont do to much or you will not be able to put the hop unit back together, and tape over where the hop arm will sit, just enough to seal the rubber to the barrel, i learnt that from the snipers, it's free, it works and improves gas flow down the barrel.

 

Also with keeping cost down i am keeping the stock TM nozzle, i will change it if it breaks.

 

 

Well i gassed a mag and it's been in my pocket for an hour, just let rip a mag full lefthanded, about 10m with a jacket for a target, double tapped and snap shooting, cycles fine, the dip in recoil now i guess is more to being cold and using 134a

 

Time for some shopping.

 

I got most of my MEU/hi capa info from the Airsoft Canada FAQ (I've probably read the whole thing). Theres this guy called Illusion who's really good with the aftermarket parts and I upgraded my MEU after considering everything that was on the FAQ.

 

I think most sniper threads will generally stick to one brand to avoid inconsistencies, but I think its different for pistols. For example, my SD nozzle is tighter than my stock nozzle over the dyna piston o-ring, so using the SD nozzle makes my MEU perform much better. OF course NB doesn't make a nozzle for the MEU..so maybe thats not the best exampleunsure.gif.

 

BUT, what I'm getting at is that there are a lot of stuff thats different for snipers and pistols. Not just in 'what parts' but also the way the parts are molded. I don't think there is any one brand besides Airsoft Surgeon that makes a complete BBU set for the hi capas/1911 (nozzle, piston head, BBU) and even AS doesn't make buckings, so mixing parts are a must if you want the best performance (assuming of course, the aftermarket parts ARE better than stock).

 

The nine ball bucking actually have a unique (I think?) design compared with other buckings. There is a complete 'lip' INSIDE the bucking itself that fully seals the nozzle head/bucking gap. The sniper hop up bucking mod would provide air seal from escaping BETWEEN the barrel and the bucking, but it can't stop gas from escaping between the bucking and the nozzle. The nine ball bucking seems to fix this and hence the increase in FPS is experienced when its used.

 

I think upgrading to a tightbore will also help with the air seal since the bucking/barrel surfaces that touch will increase (thicker barrel when smaller inner diameter, more material touching bucking), but I think the effect would be minimal. And since you're using the tape mod for the hop up anyway, I don't think it would be an issue.biggrin.gif

 

If you're still interested about the 'tightbore air seal' idea im proposing, have a look at this thread on the accuracy of 6.03mm and 6.01mm TBs here.

 

The accuracy is not what I'm focusing on (6.03 wins in that analysis btw) but that the author mentions "the retaining cut for the bucking has beveled edges, while the PDI uses straight ones. This is nice for removing the hop-up bucking without tearing it, but could mean a less secure seal." So if the tightbore air seal actually have a big effect on the air seal properties of the gas pistol, PDI should be a better option (but then you dont want to be fussy about BBs..so its all up to you!)).

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Well i must say i am really enjoying the feeback from around the world, good details and better english than a lot of english people can muster.

 

Thank you biggrin.gif

 

Due to bad weather i had the day off... i got bored... i will recheck again..... but i have removed 10grams of dead weight from the BBU blink.gif if i had more than a hand drill, it is possible to shed more weight there, with a hand drill only it is very possible to do some damage.

The BBU with the stock piston head was 52grams its now down to 42grams, i am stopping here, the chance of damage and a new BBU if i continue (BBU £28)

 

I have ordered a TM magwell £12 (same as on the G17c) a Nine ball Hop rubber £15 and a PDI Piston head, alloy version £13 all from ESC in the UK.

I am already using a nineball 112.5mm 6.03 barrel over the stock TM 97mm barrel.

 

I always learn something when i phone ESC, a few years ago TM revised parts, although the BBU unit is different, a high cappa piston head will fit a G17 as it's now a more standard part, the G26 are a slightly different size (Nineball Dynas come with 2 oring sizes for this) not knowing this stopped me getting a Nineball Dyna head. Anyway i will know for sure when the parts turn up and i attempt to fit them. I will take a few photos when it arrives so more later in the week.

 

To Intinerous and anyone else out there ! went looking for the thread on airsoft canada biggrin.gif lots to read through there, applys to more than MEUs, also some of them are members on here as well (racing maniac).

I found www.airsoftforum.com to be quite good, fair bit of pistol information there, worth looking for the "Pistol only Revolution" article very good reading about dedicated pistol play.

 

From lurking around other forums i now know that pistol players are a very rare breed in the western world, some user names crop up a lot which would suggest a very tight maybe niche element of players. Race guns and IPSC shooting do exist in the UK, but it's very hard to find out where what and who.

 

In the East (Asia/china/japan) etc etc it's big, more to firearm laws (no handguns in the UK, unless you are a drug dealer/armed robber) but it hasnt really caught on here. So hence the combat/race/franken gun i am trying to create.

 

I had a go at making a comp today, lack of tools/equipment stopped play. Also had a good long trawl on the internet, and found a few places that lay out the pros/cons of a comp. Other than excess weight they have no real function in airsoft over the Real version, i may try again later, but for now i will concentrate on what i have. I did however find some copper pipe that fits over my barrel extension, it brings the diameter out to that of the stock outer barrel. In essence i have moved some weight around my pistol, i have a slight barrel weight anyway, and have sorted an extension bit if i get the urge to go to a 6" barrel. My Glock is still going to look like a normal Glock (ish), it just wont shoot like a normal TM Glock tongue.gif

 

Be back in a few days, keep the questions and information coming please, it's all handy input.

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Some shiny things turned up biggrin.gif

 

After a quick chat with Mike at ESC, and a quick lesson on piston heads, i went for the alloy Action head over the PDI plastic head. I have only push fitted and it fits, have to rebuild and test fire later on.

In the photo is the stock TM head on the right and the Action Alloy on the left.

 

Nineball hop rubber for the Nineball barrel i already have, this seems a no brainer upgrade, although there is nothing wrong with the stock TM rubber, this is just a little bit better, you get what you pay for. On the pack it says it fits TM1911/2011/P226/Mk23/G26/VSR10.

 

Magwell, Stock TM part, in plastic, straight fit no messing about, held in place by a bolt through the laynard hole. I havent handled a G17c, it's fitted as standard along with the thumb rest on that model.

As pointed out by r.ocelot it needs some work for perfection, the standard grip magwell sits higher than the add on, it works ok, BUT taking a stanley knife and file and smoothing out the ridge makes a massive difference, i am impressed at the difference and i think any future pistols will have a magwell fitted, it will make for a faster mag change.

Now its shaped i will epoxy the small gaps in, and then re file and smooth over, it will be bonded to the grip but removable with a bit of carefull work.

 

The BBU has been on a diet and shed 10grams of metal, you could lose more but i dont have the tools for the finer work so thats finshed.

I will build up and try it out before any other work, the slide could lose a bit of weight, but i might pass on that, some in game testing first.

 

So far its looking good, from hunting out information i was amazed by how far the pro race gunners will go to lose slide weight, i found a reference to a pistol that had so much done to it that the complete slide/BBU weighed less than the standard TM BBU, tuned to the max for performance!

 

Time to put it all together now, and create my FrankenGlock.

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I have learnt that anything aftermarket for airsoft will most likely need reworking to fit and function.

 

So the ventilated piston head then, some problems.

I push fitted with the nozzle and it was fine, when the BBU was put back together it was very very tight. The gun would fire very strongly rolleyes.gif then fart one out then miss-fire. The loading nozzle is sticking, not retracting, the pistol will not function while a short stroke spacer is in place.

 

Remove spacer, re lube nozzle try again. Random faults over the next few mags, miss fires and farting bbs, then some well powered shots, and this is on 134 and its fairly cold. Wish i bought my green gas on my travels, although maybe running in on 134 is a good thing.

 

It pays to only do one mod at a time, now after ten mags it's settled down, the piston is not as tight, the nozzle does not retract, but with no short stroke spacer the gun cycles fine. I guess this will loosen up more over time, i will try some Finish Line ceramic bearing grease on the outside of the nozzle/BBU where they touch, using silicone grease at the moment.

The nozzle can be pushed back quite easily by a finger, but the nozzle return spring cant move it (yet?)

 

Also, on close inspection, there are some differences with piston heads, stock TM has a very deep recess so lots of retaining screw hold it in place.

The Action head screw sits flush on the face of the head, the screw is the same length of the TM one, this means there is less screw holding the head in place, maybe something to keep an eye on. A deeper recess or longer screw will sort that, also the stock TM head has a small amount of float due to the deep recess for the screw, the alloy action head is fixed with no float.

 

In the photo, i have removed the mag and put a BB in to highlight position. This is the nozzle position when the slide locks back, short stroking means the nozzle will not clear the BB to reload, so for now the spacer is out. I guess over time and some more lubing the nozzle will return to normal.

 

I havent swapped the hop rubber yet, incase the nozzle breaks and rips it up, a period of running in first, it does seem to be firing very well on 134, it cycles fine, and functions ok now, some more mags should see it right. Only enough gas for a few more mags left so after that it will have to wait until i find more gas.

 

The baby steps and learning curve continue

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