shadow Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Having seen one and used one, i would say it is amazing. It shot the same as the heavily upgraded sniper rifles running at 350 where the systema was only shooting at 328 at the site where i tryed it out. It feels great, and basically you will be the envy of all the ca, ics, tm or anyother other make of m16 or m4 owners. Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Hi all, first post here. It has been quite a few months that I was looking for someone owning Systema PTWs. Well, finally. Well I own the entire line of them PTWs, so, hello. Yes you read it right, the A3, A2 and M4. No, I am not showing off, far from my intentions. I rather come here to exchange info, and savvus, hello there. I have to say, I hate and love these at the same time. Hate reasons are as follows: - received my M16A3, it shot and will shoot 2 BBs per time in single mode. Gathered info via multiple ways, it's a "minor" issue of the gun; not of mine only though, of all of them A3s. Okay, - got the A2 (on which the 2BB per time issue has been resolved), great rifle. Modified the spring in the cylinder, true, two minutes, but the upgraded spring broke the cylinder after little use. Been using an 8.4 battery, so nothing too powerful. Gearbox is still healthy though. Tried it with the A3 cylinder (they are totally interchangeable, not so with the M4) and it still works great, but no upgrade for now, so I would still be using it at 265 FPS when all the rest of the guys where I am skirmishing are far above that. - M4: the only one I've used consistently to skirmish, say each sunday for the last 3-4 months, now the front sight is loose, and the handguards are shaky. Internals are unmodified, so I have been shooting this one right how it came out of the box. Hm. Should you be wondering why I got the three of them, I am also a collector and these are really the only 1:1 ARs out there, with the possible exception of SunProjects which - I may be wrong - should be gas operated only though. So I wanted something extremely accurate, and I was hoping - too - the state of the art of Airsoft AEGs in terms of functionality. Not so, not yet at least. And still waiting for the upgrades, the official ones. Love them for all the other possible reasons, total accuracy (I say again), look and feel - unsurpassed - despite the M4 front sight, robust as can be and although they will jam quite frequently if you do not clean them as suggested say every 10 mags you shot or so, the gearbox is so tough, well designed and robust that it'll never break, or so it seems after you've opened the rifle a number of times, looked inside and took confidence with it. Savvus, would you mind sharing what type of spring you used to mod yours? For the A2, I used a PDI 300% one. So in the end, should you get one? I say no, or simply not now or not if it is going to be the only one you end up having. It is still not clear to me what Systema intends to do in the near future with these, how it will support them, if it will, and so on and forth. Link to post Share on other sites
savvus Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Solo, Thanks for the heads up on the A2 & A3. I upgraded the M4 using an APS 170% spring - obviously cutting it down slightly to fit the cylinder. 2 minutes and the job was good! It seems that Systema have fixed many an issue since the first rifle and proceeded to make even more changes for the A4 (stronger cylinder, harder hop, battery issues). Like you said the gearbox is very robust. The trigger action is seriously quick and it's the only AEG gearbox that I know that completes a cycle no matter what the issue. Even if you have a flat battery and it cycles a little, the geabox seems to re-act and uses the reverse latch to make sure the gearbox is in the correct timing. I have to admit my M4 was solid. The front sight and foregrip have been replaced on mine for a RIS floating barrel system (i'll try and get some images up). I did skirmish with it though out of the box and was very sturdy and solid even after a mad weekend of thrashing it. I haven't had any jams, but I noticed I had to silicone the mags to stop them from jamming (seems to be a common thing). Overall, I am still impressing people with it when they fire it on the range in the shop. It is the best M4 replica on the market. As for your A3 problem with 2 bb's on single shot, that is due to you running an 8.4v battery. The gun is made to run 7.2v, this is why you are getting the double fire ( I bet if you put your 7.2v battery that you had with your M4 on your A3 it would work!). Systema have fixed this issue since the A3, and the M4 version will run on 7.2v up to 9.6 without any issues at all. I can't believe that this gun fires so well at 3** fps on a 7.2v battery!! I'll get some images up over the weekend! Sav. Link to post Share on other sites
majorproblem Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I would agree with Savvus (and not because I know him!) The Systema is a beautiful gun which REALLY DOES need to be tried before commenting on. Even on a 7.2v it just has that "something special" feel to it, in ROF, trigger response, sound, weight and feel, with a recoil feel unique to this gun (I've not felt anything like it in any other AEG that I have fired) Chronoing this weapon produces VERY CONSISTENT results, varying only maybe by 1-2 fps per shot (if any), rather than 10-20 fps that others can. Sure, it can have problems as lower cost AEG's, and some would and do say it is not worth the money, especially when you are forced to buy ONLY systema mags to use with them. However, I would urge people to try these weapons and then say they still would rather have upgraded TM's, CA's, etc.....most still will due to the price factor, but the difference between a Systema and other AEG makes is like the difference between Porsche and Ford....many will justify the price of a Ford, but for sure will LOVE the quality and experience of a Porsche, Ferrari, etc.....(okay Ferrari can have bad quality/ reliability issues, but you get the idea of what I mean!) After experiencing Systema, I would say it is certainly worth the money, IF YOU CAN JUSTIFY the expense....its the same as most things in life, you get what you pay for. Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Sav, thank YOU for replying to me so quickly and kindly. I appreciate it. Hope you didn't get me wrong: Systemas still own my heart fully The RIS idea is simply great. I've been trying since I got mine to get a Kinght's delivered to where I am - Italy - with no luck until very recently. Naturally I've now managed to order a Knight's RIS for the M4 (the classical one we're seeing a lot pictured) and an M5 Ras for the A3. Did I read right, you wrote A4? Is it a new one to come out (I can not find any news about Systema no matter how hard I search for them)? As Systemas are truly milspec, I expect those to fit like gloves. I'm attaching a couple pics of mine, with my beloved Systemas, at a recent game I played with my team. I am proceeding right now to get that spring you mentioned myself. Sav, how would you like it to try and keep in touch between some of us Systema PTW users? Cheers, Solo Oh BTW: nope, the A3 was always shot with the supplied 7.2, and it always shot two BBs per time in single since the very first time I took it out of the box, new. On the modded A2 instead I used an 8.4 with a stronger spring, which broke the cylinder shortly after. Sorry if I confused you. Link to post Share on other sites
savvus Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Solo, Yeah, your right. My bad. Should be M4. I have had very little experience with the A2/3. The new M4 is very sweet - nice piccy btw. Just gotta get me camera now..... I can see a Systema groupie session being created...... Would be nice to see all the Systema users out there, must be a fair few of us surely!?! Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Solo, Yeah, your right. My bad. Should be M4. I have had very little experience with the A2/3. The new M4 is very sweet - nice piccy btw. Just gotta get me camera now..... I can see a Systema groupie session being created...... Would be nice to see all the Systema users out there, must be a fair few of us surely!?! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Definitely (PTW users out there). I heard M4 are mainly sold out around? At least now I know you're here You are the very first PTW owner I can talk to after months! Fil Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Sav: Done. Works. You made me a proud owner again. Thank YOU. Fil Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Thought I'd give this a bump, as a new site is out, exclusively for Systema PTWs: www.zshot.com Also, an image of their new MP5 has been shown. I think the improvements are outstanding, and the ones needed to make the intial promise come to reality. I'm still striving to make contact for a PTW community, as small as it may be, but I guess it's fine. I'm adding a couple of pics of my last game, just for some color Enjoy PS Does anyone know exaclty when and "where" (shop) these 3d generation rifles will be available? Link to post Share on other sites
para-trooper Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 im gonna go for the middle ground here, i got a m15, but im gonna get Systema internals for it, the training rifles look good, but are a bit to much for the joe average airsofter Link to post Share on other sites
Hissing_Sid Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 I think Systema are insulting their customers by selling them an £850 gun and then, a couple of months later, telling them they are selling upgrades for it. Maybe it's just me but if I'd just spent that amount of money I'd expect a forking Systema rep' to come to my house and fit the bloody upgrades for free. Seriously, when you buy a McLaren F1 car you get a big trunk with it. When the service interval comes around a McLaren tehnician comes to your house, removes the engine, packs it into the trunk and takes it back to Woking for service. That's the kind of service that should be supplied in this market sector. I guess if I had a money tree growing in my back garden then I'd buy one without a thought. Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, I wouldn't give them a 2nd thought. If I ever meet a player who's got one and it totally outclasses my ICS M4 then I might reconsider. I seem to recall that SZM tested a bunch of Armalites and found the ICS to be the most accurate at all ranges though. TBH, I can't recall if the PTW was part of that test though. I have a feeling they didn't get hold of one. Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 I think Systema are insulting their customers by selling them an £850 gun and then, a couple of months later, telling them they are selling upgrades for it. Maybe it's just me but if I'd just spent that amount of money I'd expect a forking Systema rep' to come to my house and fit the bloody upgrades for free. Seriously, when you buy a McLaren F1 car you get a big trunk with it. When the service interval comes around a McLaren tehnician comes to your house, removes the engine, packs it into the trunk and takes it back to Woking for service. That's the kind of service that should be supplied in this market sector. I guess if I had a money tree growing in my back garden then I'd buy one without a thought. Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, I wouldn't give them a 2nd thought. If I ever meet a player who's got one and it totally outclasses my ICS M4 then I might reconsider. I seem to recall that SZM tested a bunch of Armalites and found the ICS to be the most accurate at all ranges though. TBH, I can't recall if the PTW was part of that test though. I have a feeling they didn't get hold of one. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sid, indeed they are pricey, and this is an "issue" that has been discussed over and over again. I wouldn't like to revert to that type of discussion, if you do not mind. I'll just add that the upgrades are meant to be just "cylinders", I guess at a fair price (I really do not know yet and would like to know more). These cylinders would greatly increase the performance of any PTW (3 models out right now) in both power and accuracy in just 2 minutes, maybe less. No additional work to do. This is the Systema promise. Cost justification is on www.zshot.com (a couple of tables with a quick comparison between Systema characteristics and the rest of the AEG market) and the note these *should* be targeted to a different market than the consumer one. I was purely bumping this up for people interested in news/updates. Link to post Share on other sites
Hissing_Sid Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Erm... What's the message here? You don't want my opinion in "your" thread? The thread appeared. I read it. I haven't yet contributed to it so I chose to post my opinion. If you don't want to discuss it then, well, don't. What's the big deal? Why the need to post to tell me that you don't want to discuss it? And if the upgrades are so cheap and easy to install then all the more reason for Systema to be supplying them for free IMO. Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 No it wasnt any attempt at shutting your mouth nor at flaming. Thread is not mine, if you see the starter. I'm just humbly trying to get some *useful* information about systema, and giving some where needed. Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 I think the systema is great if your a realism freak like me. But corporal pain arent you a hicap merchant? So you would need to completly rekit yourself with systema mags. Link to post Share on other sites
Hissing_Sid Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 On a different subject, and I don't mean to be argumentative here, do you think Systema PTW is genuinely designed for law enforcement and armed forces training or are they just saying that to make you feel better about paying £850 for a toy gun? I recall that a forumer called Eltee got himself a bunch of P90s to train a local police force with but that was only because the more usual simunitions or MILES gear wouldn't work with the P90. Given that the army and various agencies have been happily training with real Armalites for years then would they decide to change to "toy" guns which don't offer the recoil, smell or (most importantly IMO) the noise that you experience when shooting a real firearm? I'll be honest. I reckon that Systema are marketing their PTW as a "Training weapon" as a ploy to sucker airsofters into buying them. If it was just a "Systema M16 airsoft gun" then people would be a lot less likely to buy them than if they imagine that They are using a tool which soldiers and FBI agents are training with. That is just my opinion though. I'll be very happy to see any examples of where the Systema PTW is in use with a government body because it'll be great to show people the next time anybody tells me that airsoft is a kids game. Are there any such examples? None seem to be cited on that website, unfortunately. Link to post Share on other sites
Stoatyboy Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 considering you can have a real-steel Bushmaster for around the $1000 mark......................................draw your own conclusions! I know what I would buy if it was my training budget. Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Roger that Sid, I share your doubt. Can't answer that really, although it *seems* Systema is a pretty well known hi-end Japanese after market parts maker, to the point of being weird if they adopted such a scumming tactic. It would be clear after a year nothing has developed in military/LE terms and this would greatly affect their whole credibility in the most negative way. In simpler terms, given the price and despite an existing suspicion (plus their appearance at a couple of real steel gun shows made for military/LE people - they recently had a stand there and it seems they collected some interest) I think they are really targeting that market. Which market, is potentially a lot richer than the consumer. Not only in terms of units sold, but also in terms of all the services they could up-sell (and proposed to sell) after the rifles themselves (maintenance, ... ). Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 considering you can have a real-steel Bushmaster for around the $1000 mark......................................draw your own conclusions! I know what I would buy if it was my training budget. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We posted at the same time. Sorry, I do not agree. Training needs to simulate shooting at each other at an affordable cost. If you use real bushmasters (do they have full auto BTW) you only have a couple options: - use real bullets (training would have to be canceled for shortage of men after maybe 20 minutes) - simunition (more expensive than Systema's Airsoft solution, please check at www.zshot.com) - MILES (same as simunition: expensive) Link to post Share on other sites
Stoatyboy Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Yes, Point taken, but with Miles gear you still have a useful weapon once you remove it from the weapon. My example of a Bushmaster cost was just an illustration as I cannot easily find out what the US Army currently pays for an M16 A3. An electric rifle does not silmulate recoil and can only really be useful for dry training IMO. It will give unrealistic weapon handling characteristics and ballistic paths. Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Yep I agree. No recoil and dry training. Can it still be useful? I for one, do not know. But if Systema has invested in it (must have been quite a large investment) I guess they may have researched the issue finding at least a niche market interested in it. Link to post Share on other sites
duckares Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Definitely (PTW users out there). I heard M4 are mainly sold out around? At least now I know you're here You are the very first PTW owner I can talk to after months! Fil <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How is Systema serializing their product? If a M16A3 is #403802, how far back is my rifle from initial production? My A3 haven't been used as intended since purchase. It's been drafted into a tool to ease friends & visitors into firearms safety... (Why folks that lives in gun-free country such as Singapore so adamant in firearms use when visiting?) The retail stores in LA ceased stocking PTWs... Glad to know there are other PTW owners out there. Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 How is Systema serializing their product? If a M16A3 is #403802, how far back is my rifle from initial production? My A3 haven't been used as intended since purchase. It's been drafted into a tool to ease friends & visitors into firearms safety... (Why folks that lives in gun-free country such as Singapore so adamant in firearms use when visiting?) The retail stores in LA ceased stocking PTWs... Glad to know there are other PTW owners out there. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> HA, glad to have you on board, too Most shops have ceased stocking them. Now you're supposed to order either at the shop or at Systema directly. Link to post Share on other sites
duckares Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 HA, glad to have you on board, too Most shops have ceased stocking them. Now you're supposed to order either at the shop or at Systema directly. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Your photos of the PTWs (@KAC topic) are inspirational. I'll email zshot, the Systema USA people to order some gen 3s with emphasis for skirmishing. Thanks for the help... Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Your photos of the PTWs (@KAC topic) are inspirational. I'll email zshot, the Systema USA people to order some gen 3s with emphasis for skirmishing. Thanks for the help... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Pleasure indeed. Please keep in touch (PM). Link to post Share on other sites
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