Balance point of a weapon

[RC-1138]

How come the M16A4 is so barrel heavy?

 

RIS and all the ###### you throw on it. When prone you VERY easily notice how much heavier the barrel is.

[ktk_ace]

Erm, we haven't really decided if that applies to weapons designed for 2 handed operation. You did say afterall, "or some other important feature." which I assume the support arm counts?

 

U messed up 2 points of contact with 2 handed.

 

every stocked smg/carbine/assault rifle can be fired shouldered and with one hand.

 

Im not surprised, they dont teach these things in the military most of the time.

[Punkypink]

U messed up 2 points of contact with 2 handed.

 

every stocked smg/carbine/assault rifle can be fired shouldered and with one hand.

 

Im not surprised, they dont teach these things in the military most of the time.

I think you need to differentiate between primary intended use, and contingency use.

[RC-1138]

Im not surprised, they dont teach these things in the military most of the time.

 

Even in reaction shooting they teach you to always have positive control of the weapon and a stable firing platform.

[Stealthbomber]

Erm, we haven't really decided if that applies to weapons designed for 2 handed operation. You did say afterall, "or some other important feature." which I assume the support arm counts?

To be honest, it doesn't usually matter.

 

Again, almost everybody in the world who used military firearms will judge balance on the basis of how a weapon feels with one hand on the pistol grip.

A weapon such as a G3, for example, is considered front-heavy even though it balances perfectly in two hands.

Conversely, an L85 or TAR21 will be considered rear-heavy even though it's perfect when shouldered.

It's just the way things are.

[Punkypink]

Even in reaction shooting they teach you to always have positive control of the weapon and a stable firing platform.

In other words.... don't fire a 2-handed weapon with one hand even if it's doable?

 

To be honest, it doesn't usually matter.

 

Again, almost everybody in the world who used military firearms will judge balance on the basis of how a weapon feels with one hand on the pistol grip.

A weapon such as a G3, for example, is considered front-heavy even though it balances perfectly in two hands.

Conversely, an L85 or TAR21 will be considered rear-heavy even though it's perfect when shouldered.

It's just the way things are.

Actually having shouldred a TAR21, I agree with you that its rear-heavy. It's VERY rear heavy. Sadly, it's not perfect when shouldered. Still too rear heavy.

 

Well in all honesty, I'd like to see more people comment on whether it matters if a weapon is designed for single hand or 2 handed operation, but while theres a lot of people reading, not many are really commenting. No way I can know for sure if what you say about everyone in the world is true and while you're probably right, it's a good habit to hear from more than just 3 or 4 sources.

 

Would be great if it could stay open for more than just the few hours it has been though, so that there is the opportunity to just gather a few more views to determine the veracity of that. Could I ask for it to stay open for 24 hours before a decision to lock it is made?

[RC-1138]

In other words.... don't fire a 2-handed weapon with one hand even if it's doable?

 

For so many reasons, safety being the number one. But then I can't think of a single weapon that ISN'T shot two handed, at least when taught by a firearms instructor. No instructor will teach someone to shoot a pistol one handed, nor an SMG, or really anything. Everything gets two hands, (hence why the Matrix is laughable at best, facepalm at worst).

[ktk_ace]

Even in reaction shooting they teach you to always have positive control of the weapon and a stable firing platform.

 

Always.

 

glad you learned that, not alot of people get to do CQB/ FIBUA training at my side.

 

 

 

A mistake during operations might cost a life, alot of airsofters dont get it because they can respawn., oh well, their loss.

 

 

Good habits take years to build upon,

 

Bad habits mere seconds to learn.

[UrPeaceKeeper]

Alright, I'll throw this out there, from some real world shooting experience... Where the Balance point is determined, at least for me, is where I can put my hand and the gun sits perfectly without going one end higher than the other... Determining front heavy or back heavy depends heavily on where the balance point of the gun is, in relation to the pistol grip. In technicality, both Ranger Captain AND Stealth Bomber are correct, from my experience anyway.

 

As to what is ideal? This is 100000000000000000000000% dependent on the use for the gun and on the shooter. For instance, a barrel heavy gun (Pistol grip to the rear of the balance point) is excellent for target shooting and longer range shooting. The reason being recoil management and stabilization. When properly stabilized a barrel heavy gun will be less prone to movement, as will a heavier gun in general (to a point, excessivly heavy, a la LMG's can't be shouldered effectivly because the lack of strength of the shooter in holding the gun in the air).

 

A stock heavy gun will be more ideal for situations requiring mobility as it's easier to move the front of the gun around onto targets when rapidly engaging them. In theory, a full length rifle that is stock heavy would be just as easy to use in close quarters as a short barrel but heavy barrel gun simply because of the mechanics involved in moving the gun. In practice thats not entirely true.

 

A perfectly balanced gun is rare, but in some instances do exist, and really favor neither, kind of a jack of all trades master of none kind of deal. With magazine loaded guns the weight of the magazine pulls the balance point in one direction or the other, this is why the Mp7 is much more balanced than an M16 for instance.

 

I personally prefer barrel heavy. From my shooting background, I know that I can get more accurate shots off with a reasonably barrel heavy gun than I can with a back heavy gun. I dislike the feel of back heavy guns as it's too difficult to get them to be accurate by anything other than volume of fire. I also play in the woods strictly, and have no use for an overly manueverable gun. And at the end of the day, it depends on how long you've trained with the gun too, as I find the length and weight of an M14 to not be a hinderance when quickly aiming, whereas someone who just picked it up would go "DANG thats hard to aim dontcha think?"

 

I guess, if your goal is to put a new gun in someone's hands and ask them which is more accurate for them and which is easier to maneuver, what I said above will hold true. However I think most people will find that most modern rifles will be barrel heavy, IE, balance point ahead of the Pistol grip, what most find as more comfortable will be guns with a balance point closer to the pistol grip.

[RC-1138]

In technicality, both Ranger Captain AND Stealth Bomber are correct,

 

Actually I was agreeing with him lol. Once he explained what he had meant, he's 99.99% right the only kink being the way MG's work, and that's a very rare, specific case.

[ktk_ace]

Alright, I'll throw this out there, from some real world shooting experience... Where the Balance point is determined, at least for me, is where I can put my hand and the gun sits perfectly without going one end higher than the other... Determining front heavy or back heavy depends heavily on where the balance point of the gun is, in relation to the pistol grip. In technicality, both Ranger Captain AND Stealth Bomber are correct, from my experience anyway.

 

As to what is ideal? This is 100000000000000000000000% dependent on the use for the gun and on the shooter. For instance, a barrel heavy gun (Pistol grip to the rear of the balance point) is excellent for target shooting and longer range shooting. The reason being recoil management and stabilization. When properly stabilized a barrel heavy gun will be less prone to movement, as will a heavier gun in general (to a point, excessivly heavy, a la LMG's can't be shouldered effectivly because the lack of strength of the shooter in holding the gun in the air).

 

A stock heavy gun will be more ideal for situations requiring mobility as it's easier to move the front of the gun around onto targets when rapidly engaging them. In theory, a full length rifle that is stock heavy would be just as easy to use in close quarters as a short barrel but heavy barrel gun simply because of the mechanics involved in moving the gun. In practice thats not entirely true.

 

A perfectly balanced gun is rare, but in some instances do exist, and really favor neither, kind of a jack of all trades master of none kind of deal. With magazine loaded guns the weight of the magazine pulls the balance point in one direction or the other, this is why the Mp7 is much more balanced than an M16 for instance.

 

I personally prefer barrel heavy. From my shooting background, I know that I can get more accurate shots off with a reasonably barrel heavy gun than I can with a back heavy gun. I dislike the feel of back heavy guns as it's too difficult to get them to be accurate by anything other than volume of fire. I also play in the woods strictly, and have no use for an overly manueverable gun. And at the end of the day, it depends on how long you've trained with the gun too, as I find the length and weight of an M14 to not be a hinderance when quickly aiming, whereas someone who just picked it up would go "DANG thats hard to aim dontcha think?"

 

I guess, if your goal is to put a new gun in someone's hands and ask them which is more accurate for them and which is easier to maneuver, what I said above will hold true. However I think most people will find that most modern rifles will be barrel heavy, IE, balance point ahead of the Pistol grip, what most find as more comfortable will be guns with a balance point closer to the pistol grip.

 

That is the design ideaology behind the Steyr AUG :

 

H-bar/marksman with silencer > front heavy

 

STG77 > balanced

 

Para/carbine > rear heavy

 

all with a barrel swap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Punkypink]

Alright, I'll throw this out there, from some real world shooting experience... Where the Balance point is determined, at least for me, is where I can put my hand and the gun sits perfectly without going one end higher than the other...

does this mean my definition of the balance point is right afterall?

 

i.e., the point where the weight is distributed 50:50?

 

That would make things a LOT clearer, i.e. where the balance point is in relation to where the pistol grip is, determines its front heavy/rear heavy status.

 

What about weight distribution in terms of weapons handling though? Assuming 2 weapons weighing 4kg each, would one that places 2kg more or less evenly on each arm be more comfortable than say, one that places 0.5kg on one arm and 3.5kg on the other, especially for people who're supposedly weaker physically? (the question arose in a thread asking for compact alternatives to the MP5K for female players)

[Stealthbomber]

Absolutely correct.

 

Again, a lot of what's considered "good" is dependant on real-steel.

A G3, even though it's long and barrel-heavy, feels nice because the weight distribution helps minimise muzzle-climb when shooting.

Even so, it WOULD be classed as barrel heavy and you do that on the basis of how it feels when you're holding it by the pistol grip.

 

FWIW, for anybody who didn't read the other topic, this all started because Punky suggested that adding a mag to a G36 doesn't affect the balance because the mag is ON the point of balance.

I was trying to explain that adding a mag DOES affect the balance because the balance is judged from the pistol grip, which is, of course, behind the mag.

[Punkypink]

Absolutely correct.

 

Again, a lot of what's considered "good" is dependant on real-steel.

A G3, even though it's long and barrel-heavy, feels nice because the weight distribution helps minimise muzzle-climb when shooting.

Even so, it WOULD be classed as barrel heavy and you do that on the basis of how it feels when you're holding it by the pistol grip.

 

FWIW, for anybody who didn't read the other topic, this all started because Punky suggested that adding a mag to a G36 doesn't affect the balance because the mag is ON the point of balance.

I was trying to explain that adding a mag DOES affect the balance because the balance is judged from the pistol grip, which is, of course, behind the mag.

You are right about the balance of the weapon shifting because that is judged from the pistol grip.

 

I was saying that the point of balance itself, which I've defined as the point where the weight is evenly distributed on either side of the point, which turns out to be right, does not shift much when the mag is added.

 

So anyways, the point of balance is not where the pistol grip itself is, as you've suggested.

 

Sorry, you don't seem to get it.

 

I'm TELLING you that the point of balance of a weapon is considered to be the pistol grip.

 

Actually too, this started when the G36C was mentioned as a good alternative to the MP5K, and then someone else said it was too big and mentioned weight distribution as a factor. Thus begun the "is it front heavy or not" discussion which then led to the "what is point of balance" question and how it helps determine the balance of a gun.

 

So in conclusion, the balance of the gun depends on where the point of balance is in relation to the trigger hand holds the weapon, but the point of balance itself is NOT where the pistol grip is. Right everybody?

[ktk_ace]

does this mean my definition of the balance point is right afterall?

 

i.e., the point where the weight is distributed 50:50?

 

That would make things a LOT clearer, i.e. where the balance point is in relation to where the pistol grip is, determines its front heavy/rear heavy status.

 

What about weight distribution in terms of weapons handling though? Assuming 2 weapons weighing 4kg each, would one that places 2kg more or less evenly on each arm be more comfortable than say, one that places 0.5kg on one arm and 3.5kg on the other, especially for people who're supposedly weaker physically? (the question arose in a thread asking for compact alternatives to the MP5K for female players)

 

if its an airsoft bullpup with most of the weight at the buttstock , and the user has a good habit of shouldering the weapon system, its going to be very effective , even with one hand.

 

No recoil relative to real firearms, even .22LR.

[ktk_ace]

You are right about the balance of the weapon shifting because that is judged from the pistol grip.

 

I was saying that the point of balance itself, which I've defined as the point where the weight is evenly distributed on either side of the point, which turns out to be right, does not shift much when the mag is added.

 

Besides, the point of balance is not where the pistol grip itself is, as you've suggested.

 

stick a custom folding telescoping stock with a big battery, and it will be.

 

Christ on a bike, its not fixed if u add stuff to it or even change the geometry of the weapon by folding/ telescoping the stock.

 

 

 

 

Aw forget it, its like explaining rocket science to a caveman.

[Punkypink]

stick a custom folding telescoping stock with a big battery, and it will be.

 

Christ on a bike, its not fixed if u add stuff to it or even change the geometry of the weapon by folding/ telescoping the stock.

 

 

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.

 

YOUR OPINION IS NOT FACT.

Last I checked, at least one other person with experience with firearms seem to share my opinion.

 

Alright, I'll throw this out there, from some real world shooting experience... Where the Balance point is determined, at least for me, is where I can put my hand and the gun sits perfectly without going one end higher than the other...

Neither is yours, at least I've learnt that in talking about guns being front or rear heavy, its dependent on a variable point (point of balance) and a fixed reference point (where the trigger hand holds the weapon).

 

You on the other hand, still think that the variable point and fixed reference point are one and the same. It IS indeed like explaining rocket science to a caveman.

[UrPeaceKeeper]

does this mean my definition of the balance point is right afterall?

 

i.e., the point where the weight is distributed 50:50?

 

That would make things a LOT clearer, i.e. where the balance point is in relation to where the pistol grip is, determines its front heavy/rear heavy status.

 

What about weight distribution in terms of weapons handling though? Assuming 2 weapons weighing 4kg each, would one that places 2kg more or less evenly on each arm be more comfortable than say, one that places 0.5kg on one arm and 3.5kg on the other, especially for people who're supposedly weaker physically? (the question arose in a thread asking for compact alternatives to the MP5K for female players)

 

Yes, in my eyes, the balance point is where weight is distributed 50/50, but the "balance" of the gun is where that Balance Point (I'm going to say center of gravity from now on) is in relation to the pistol grip. So while the CG of the gun is in the middle of the magwell, it will change the balance of the gun by adding a magazine to it. Does that make sense?

 

I cant comment on your last question, as it's entirely user preference. As I've stated before, for me a barrel heavy gun is more comfortable for me to shoot and operate than one that is balanced over the pistol grip or one that is stock heavy. In terms of comfort I'd imagine that for someone who is "supposedly weaker physically" (as you put it, I dont think females are all that much "weaker" in terms of physical strength then they lead on to believe ) that a balanced or barrel heavy gun will tire them more quickly than one that is stock heavy. This would be entirely due to shooting stance, the way our body structure works and our muscle system works, when it comes to weight distribution our body is most efficient when the weight is held as close to verticle as possible. Having the weight in the stock means that the weight is concentrated on the rearword most arm, which is more verticle than the forward arm. Thus, the stock heavy would be less tiring than one that is barrel heavy or balanced as the weight is where the body is most efficiently able to deal with it.

 

Now, it may not seem like much but if you hold a perfectly balanced gun in the air untill one arm tires, it will almost always be the one that is extended the most (front most arm), with a stock heavy gun, the arms will tire at about the same rate, less weight on the front arm means it can be out longer, and where the rear arm would normally only be holding up (ideally) half the weight in a balanced gun, it holds up more, which tires it slightly quicker, but it's still much more efficient due to the bone structure and the way the weight is distributed to the arms.

 

I could go on about shooting stances, but for what one gun works best at in one stance may not carry over in the next, which makes this all very difficult to explain.

 

Anyway, I would feel that a gun with the weight torwards the rear would be better for a weaker person than one that is properly balanced on the acount that the rear most arm (right hand for right eye dominant) is more efficiently able to deal with the weight of the gun. Due to the geometry and just in general the strength of that arm. I can't say all people are like this, but most people's dominant hand tends to follow their eye dominance, this isnt always the case, but for the most part holds true, so a right eye right handed person will have a stronger right hand, ergo, more strength to hold up more weight, in combination with the stance geometry leads to better management of weight.

 

Of course, entirely opinion, again. This is very difficult as I can only speak for what works with me, not necessarily you or anyone else. There are so many factors involved here that going into the physics behind it would make it less clear than it is... I'm sure I've done a dang good job of making it muddy as is

[Punkypink]

Yep that makes sense. As soon as it became apparent in your post that the balance of the gun is not the same thing as the point of balance I got it. I did say even at the start that I consider the point of balance, not the balance of the gun itself, to be where the weight distribution is 50:50. Actually yea I could have saved a load of trouble by just calling it CG in the 1st place. What I meant to say was, the CG of a G36C would not change much with or without the mag in it, since the CG without a mag is roughly where the magwell is.

 

I'm glad you posted. A couple others were just plain insistant that I was wrong about what I consider the balance point/point of balance/center of gravity and that NOBODY in the entire world else felt the same about it.

 

Notice I did give the thread the title of what I set out to find. I'm glad that in the process I was proven right about what constitutes the balance point of a weapon, and learnt how the position of that in relation to the pistol grip determines if the weapon is front or rear heavy.

 

So it can also be said that whether a weapon is front or rear heavy, does not reflect it's weight distribution.

[ktk_ace]

Last I checked, at least one other person with experience with firearms seem to share my opinion.

 

Last time i checked ,5 + FACT ?

 

Oh nevermind, I love to watch that attitude of yours get you into trouble in the real world .

 

as if it wasn't already in this thread.

 

 

 

[Punkypink]

It wasn't. I asked if the balance point of a weapon is fixed where the pistol grip is. Guess what? no it isn't. the center of gravity of a weapon is determined by its weight distribution.

 

The pistol grip is an arbitary point used to decide if the weapon is front or rear heavy based on whether the CG is in front or behind the pistol grip.

 

It all makes perfect sense.

 

Now stop being a jerk. You've got way more attitude than I do ego-boy.

[ktk_ace]

It wasn't. I asked if the balance point of a weapon is fixed where the pistol grip is. Guess what? no it isn't. the center of gravity of a weapon is determined by its weight distribution.

 

The pistol grip is an arbitary point used to decide if the weapon is front or rear heavy based on whether the CG is in front or behind the pistol grip.

 

It all makes perfect sense.

 

Now stop being a jerk. You've got way more attitude than I do ego-boy.

 

yes , you started a thread to justify your wrong.

 

How much worse can it be?

 

I say lock this thread up once and for all, else its just a playground for someone with a bruised ego to continue blabbering.

 

 

[Stealthbomber]

The only thing stopping me giving Punky warning points for being insulting is that this whole thing is so stupidly trivial it's incredible.