Most Reliable GBBR on the Market Now?

[gijohn2]

I never thought about replacing the spring in the hop up unit before! Might have to do that before i put the gun back together.

 

Like Hwagan said Ra-tech rubber is the best way to go and as for the hop up chamber just stick to the G&P as it works just as good as the Ra-tech

[bankz5152]

Yes Hwagan I think we have played a few games before, you used to play at EBZ Bexley Labs right? Would be fantastic if I could have a go/look see. Where you playing now?

 

No WE Bashing from me either Ive had 2 G36s and a PDW and all my team mates have G36s, M4s & a SCAR. I must say the G36 is a very good rifle especially for the price. (got mine with 4 mags from WGC for £195.00 shipped with one of the xmas discounts ). I say its good because I played a game when it was -5 outside and snowing, never skiped a beat. People where shocked and amazed.

 

Ive also got 5 of the Gen II WE mags which are a shocking improvment over the Gen I. Much better gas consumption, far less cool down and much more consistancy.

 

 

Back on non- WE Rifles -

 

Good to know that the hop unit is stable there are many guns out there which just are not or just poor. (VFC MP5 comes to mind...) A shoddy bodged AEG/GBBR hybrid hop unit that just did not work and was a violent pain to adjust.

 

So far it does seem that the WOCs are infact worth the money their made off, though knowing my luck ill get a lemon...

 

On the aluminium bolt striking against the steel trigger pack is there any damage? Could see to well in the pics.

 

I agree with you Hwagan on the nozzles, ive never been a fan of having metal nozzles and how often do you find a plastic one really break? Apart from the MP5 its rare for me. The metal nozzle guides may not be a bad call though.

 

 

How long have the KWAs/KSCs been out? Long enough to show 'age damage' i suppose. That KWA Magpul does look good but id change the front end and the stock. Though is a bit pricey.

 

Did someone mentioned the KWAs/KSCs would be less useful in the UK due to the steel bolt?

[hwagan]

Yes Hwagan I think we have played a few games before, you used to play at EBZ Bexley Labs right? Would be fantastic if I could have a go/look see. Where you playing now?

 

...I say its good because I played a game when it was -5 outside and snowing, never skiped a beat. People where shocked and amazed...

 

On the aluminium bolt striking against the steel trigger pack is there any damage? Could see to well in the pics.

 

I agree with you Hwagan on the nozzles, ive never been a fan of having metal nozzles and how often do you find a plastic one really break? Apart from the MP5 its rare for me. The metal nozzle guides may not be a bad call though.

 

 

How long have the KWAs/KSCs been out? Long enough to show 'age damage' i suppose. That KWA Magpul does look good but id change the front end and the stock. Though is a bit pricey.

 

Did someone mentioned the KWAs/KSCs would be less useful in the UK due to the steel bolt?

 

I was there for the opening game after doing most of the work to organise it on the forums etc... Let's just say I'm not a particular fan of EBZ's owner... But I play at either the Sandpit or Ace Combat, occasionally battle lakes and wherever else a car is pointed that has a spare seat

 

My WOC has been out and worked just fine in -5 with snow on the ground 'n all - Although I'll admit doing so requires a chest rig under a coat to keep them a reasonable temperature, however I'd rather deal with that than use an AEG.

 

I'll get better pictures of the bolt up this evening now it's clean; Obviously the steel bolt catch wears on the area it catches, but I've got one 12,000 rounds in which still locks every time. There's also the lots of added wear from me just messing with the action because I like the clicking noises and such. Despite all that, on my most heavily used BCG, there's nothing but a thin track of silver on the underside where it rides over the roller bearing, and wear to the bolt catch area. Still, even when that becomes too angled to lock back, you can dremel it flat again once or twice before you need to scrap the bolt.

 

I'd stay away from the metal nozzle guides perfectly; I feel that the very slight movement allowed with the stock nozzle guide prevents the nozzle getting stuck somewhere and damaging itself during the cycle. I wouldn't say there's a need for one, and I've heard reports of them causing issues... I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I've never felt the need. And if a plastic nozzle that comes with the guide costs all of $35 or so, why bother?

 

Logic dictates a KWA's steel bolt is going to need more gas, but I can't say how good their system is or whatever... By all accounts though, people are reporting 2-3 BB fills from a gas load in room temperature, so it's obviously a tad more efficient than the WA system.

[gijohn2]

$35 nozzles? Those G&P ones?

[hwagan]

Got the numbers the wrong way round, and I was thinking in UK monies... £35, not $!

 

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-loading-nozzle-set-for-wa-m4-negative-pressure.html

 

Either way, I'm yet to break one after an awful lot of use.

[gijohn2]

Got the numbers the wrong way round, and I was thinking in UK monies... £35, not $!

 

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-loading-nozzle-set-for-wa-m4-negative-pressure.html

 

Either way, I'm yet to break one after an awful lot of use.

 

 

Same for mine, It shows alot of wear on the nozzle and BB pusher but it still works flawlessly. I brought a 5KU aluminium bolt with NPAS to replace it and it was balls so i went back to my G&P. Over all i think G&P make the best nozzle there is

[hwagan]

I'd agree with that; It wears itself down to a point but the corner shaving has never gotten worse on any of my nozzles. Besides, I just see an aluminium bolt as asking for cooldown... I can also imagine if a bit of a plastic nozzle breaks, it's not going to hurt anything else. Whereas if an aluminium bolt lug ends up in the guts, I'm sure it'll end up bad news.

[bankz5152]

This good NPAS?

 

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/ra-tech-n-p-a-s-upgrade-set-for-wa-m4-gbb.html

 

 

Also list of Steel Internal parts -

 

Anti Rotation Links - What are these for?

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-wa-anti-rotation-links-for-wa-m4-series.html

 

Hammer Pin Bearing Set

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-bearing-hammer-pin-set-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

 

Roller Hammer

 

??http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/5ku-steel-hammer-w-5-bearing-for-wa-m4-series.html

Steel Bolt Catch

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-steel-bolt-stop-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

 

Steel Selector

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-steel-selector-lever-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

 

Hammer Lock

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-hammer-lock-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

 

Steel Trigger

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-wa-m4-steel-trigger-for-wa-m4-series.html

 

Magazine Valve Lock

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-magazine-valve-lock-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

Or

Magazine Valve Lock Roller

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-roller-magazine-valve-lock-for-wa-m4.html

 

Have I included anything not needed or missing anything?

 

Or would it be cheaper/eaiser to buy this

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-burst-set-for-wa-m4-gbb.html

 

And fill in the extras?

 

 

Also are the 5KU parts as good quality as the G&P? Just wondering on the price..

[hwagan]

This good NPAS?

 

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/ra-tech-n-p-a-s-upgrade-set-for-wa-m4-gbb.html

 

I'm going to assume being RA-Tech it is, but I'll let GIJohn or someone else answer on the NPAS; Only because I've never used or installed one

 

Also list of Steel Internal parts -

 

Anti Rotation Links - What are these for?

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-wa-anti-rotation-links-for-wa-m4-series.html

 

Prevent any chance of the pins slipping out - Saying that, mine are still in fine, but they're a good idea, especially with the price.

 

Hammer Pin Bearing Set

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-bearing-hammer-pin-set-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

 

I'm not sure if they're just the upgraded part for a WA, or a step up from the X internals. I can't say for sure...

 

 

Roller Hammer

 

??http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/5ku-steel-hammer-w-5-bearing-for-wa-m4-series.html

 

I kinda believe in the whole as stock as possible thing, I'm sure the 5KU hammer is fine, but it might need a little filing to fit.. I'm certain I've heard of people using them in builds though.

 

Steel Bolt Catch

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-steel-bolt-stop-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

 

Yep.

 

Steel Selector

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-steel-selector-lever-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

 

Yep.

 

Hammer Lock

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-hammer-lock-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

 

No need; The hammer lock on mine is ally, that's just the replacement part. Remember G&P do the ally and steel bits, and it'll specifically say steel somewhere in the EHA description, that hammer lock doesn't.

 

Steel Trigger

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-wa-m4-steel-trigger-for-wa-m4-series.html

 

Yep.

 

Magazine Valve Lock

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-magazine-valve-lock-for-wa-m4a1-series.html

Or

Magazine Valve Lock Roller

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-roller-magazine-valve-lock-for-wa-m4.html

 

Scratch these, unless you break one on a mag, they're not necessary on the Pmags.

 

 

Have I included anything not needed or missing anything?

 

Or would it be cheaper/eaiser to buy this

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-burst-set-for-wa-m4-gbb.html

 

It'd definitely be easier; and you won't need to worry about the 5KU hammer needing work or anything. I'd go with that option personally.

 

And fill in the extras?

 

 

Also are the 5KU parts as good quality as the G&P? Just wondering on the price..

 

That covers everything I can say for certain; I'd stick to G&P parts solely because I got burned on the 5KU nozzle set and I've always used G&P parts to repair G&P guns, but that NPAS set was a whole series of parts. Chances are it'd have been fine in the 5KU carrier instead of the G&P one or with some work. I get the impression most of the 5KU are pretty decent, especially for the price, and same with some of the Element bits. I just can't recommend them based on my total lack of contact with 'em

[gijohn2]

As for NPAS i use this http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/5ku-tool-adjust-npas-set-for-wa-m4-gbb.html

 

works just the same as the RA-tech, should drop straight into the loading nozzle but i advise when installing it to slightly bend the retaining pin that holds it into the nozzle so it wont work its self loose also have a fiddle with different Orings to get a decent compression. As long as the nozzle returns quickly its fine but if it slowly goes down then the oring is to fat

[BaBaBooey]

You mentioned in your first post you wanted "overall reliability out the box (or with minor upgrading) against price", yet you seem to be planning on getting a long list of parts that you're planning on replacing in a brand new WOC. Sorry, I didn't read every post in this topic, but why not keep it stock and swap out parts as they wear down or break?

[uscmCorps]

Good point. Or get a gun that will cost you less than a WOC, and you won't have to upgrade at all: KWA.

[BaBaBooey]

I've been using a WA platform for about 4 years now and I have to agree that I would recommend a KWA at this point. Yes, it's new and may reveal flaws as time goes by, but I've shot it in person and at this point in time it appears to be a solid performer. The WA "platform" I have been using has a lot of positive things going for it (the biggest plus for me being the ability to take an unmodified Colt upper over an airsoft lower), but it has been time consuming, expensive, etc...I don't think I'm the only one with a box full of parts that are just gathering dust.

 

If you're short on budget, why not just go for a KWA? I also understand the importance of realistic markings...one aspect of airsoft is being the first on the field with the newest and best looking. It's important to me as well, but ultimately nice trade marks won't help in me in a game, while reliability will.

 

Also, I'm not sure if you are new to GBBR's or not (I still consider myself an airsoft "newbie" and I've been at it a for a LONG time), but there's a great article on this very site that says:

 

"Inevitably, when you upgrade for performance, you will likely stand to lose a bit of durability...you should really take the time to first allow you to get your heading in the sport prior to plunking down the dough for an expensive upgrade. Unless you play through several game-days with your new stock AEG, you're not going to really have a feel for how well it really performs or have a good idea of *exactly* and *realistically* what an upgraded AEG is capable, or not capable, of doing.."

 

I can't agree with this more. Read the full article here: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/articles/newbie_guide/newbie_faq.htm

[bankz5152]

Im not settled on the WOC just creating a list of exactly what I would need for that platform (so when it does eventually happen im ready and know what to do). Im not buying everything straight of the line, and it will be replaced when and if needed. Im replacing most of the body because I don't like the current long M4 type, want to personalise it a little.

 

Im still interested in the KWA/KSC model but until a new reciever is released (pref a VLTOR) it takes a back seat in comparison to the WOC. I hate have airsoft trades on guns, like Umarex, Cal.6mm down the side or a massive KWA Stamp in this case. However I did mention before that I like the idea of a System 7 rifle as I know it is a good system and KWA is a company I trust especially since they are opening a European Distribution Office.

 

Ive been playing airsoft for the past 8 years or so, owned over 250+ guns and been exclusivley using GBBRs for the past 3.5 and can happily strip a WE into its base componants and re-build with relative ease. Also quite confident when it comes to stripping, repairing and maintaining all manor of makes and models.

[hwagan]

Steel internalled WOC = Out the box reliability and awesome looks, but pricey and hard to find.

WOC-X = Out the box reliability and awesome looks, but parts will eventually need replacing.

KWA = Out the box reliability, not quite as awesome looks, but much better priced and guaranteed leak free included magazine.

 

 

Essentially, that's about what it comes down to I reckon. I think it's a tad unfair to judge the reliability of a WOC on one of the very first available models or a custom build using non standard parts, when later models of the WOC have been proven to be very good guns with maybe a little tweaking required. I'm sure when KWA knocked up the first prototype they went through a process of design changes, and I admire the fact they seem to have nailed it before putting it on sale; While G&P have done the same thing, they just went and bunged the first botched attempts on sale, clearly a bad move. KWA's aftermarket support, whilst good, is nothing like what you guys in the states receive. We've got very few official dealers, parts aren't as easy to obtain as they are over the pond, and until this EU distribution centre is up and running, KWA parts can be tricky to find. KWA guns are also not quite as price competitive in the UK as they are in the US due to the availability, and I'm still waiting to see what effect the steel bolt has in winter useage...

 

I can happily accept the KWA LM4 is an excellent gun and KWA is an excellent company. and I can even see one in my future sometime when I'm earning more; I just think there's a bit too much WOC-bashing going on, and it's not as clear cut as simply 'The KWA is more reliable than the WOC'.

 

I can say from first hand experience of 6 or 7 recently made G&P WA GBBR's, and all of them (With the exception of the 607 issues caused solely by the stock) have been out of the box skirmishable after a quick change of hop rubbers. I know plenty of people using WOC-X's without issue, and once the ally parts fail and are replaced with steel, you've got a gun as reliable as the KWA appears to be. There's also reports of failures in the KWA review thread; I'd bet money these failures are user error, but accidentally overloading a mag is a very, very easy mistake to make.

 

I've put my WOC through absolute hell for an airsoft gun, and all it's done is laughed in my face and carried on smacking out rounds in all conditions.

 

I do really believe a stock G&P WA based GBBR, manufactured in the last year or two, will perform as expected with the exception of the hopup. While a KWA obviously does perform as expected, and performance wise it's got the edge on a G&P, For someone in the UK, trademarks hold an amazing amount of influence when making a purchase due to the near impossibility of accessing R/S firearms, it really is a dealbreaker to a lot of people. If someone could invent a gun that'd somehow send a .2 200 yards at a steady 300FPS, I wouldn't purchase it if it were marked 6mm anywhere. Players in the UK often tend to take looks over practicality, us Brits are silly like that

 

In the end, LM4 or WOC, either will be a good choice. I just felt I had to stand up for the WOC's a bit

[bankz5152]

The other point to the thread IMO is simply to learn about as many systems as I can and make an informed desicion. Inokatsus, WEs, VFCs, Viper Tech & Bomber have all been mentioned aswell.

 

 

That was the other part that slighly put me off the LM4 was the steel bolt, while a good addition it hasnt really been about 15C in the UK this summer so performance on that would be lacking unless CO2 is used and personally not the biggest fan as I find it tends to ware parts on GBBRs much much faster.

 

Also on the KWA regardless of how it performs it will look like any other M4 which im not the biggest fan of as there are so god damn many on the battlefield today. Hence why my sig is full of slightly more unique rifles/smgs/pistols.

 

Each rifle has its pros and cons to me.

 

E.G. The WOCs have been out a long while and nearly all issues have been addressed and are known about however the same can't be said for the KWA considering its so new. One thing i'd hate to happen is to be using it somthing fail and have no rifle for 3 months.

[Sallinen]

As it seems you are more into M4s and such, I'll have to note that Daytonagun has a M4 drop in kit available, I have mine inside a G&P WOC V.P.R.

I had it installed by Tony himself(tnkguns) and he included R-hop in the install if I am correct. Atleast it is shooting damn nice with little to none adjusting.

 

One downside to the system that I can recall for now. Way too hot without some tinkering, Mine shoots over 2.25 joules with 132 PSI. The systems PSI range is about 100-160 PSI. Also it is very demanding on the lubricants, I am told teflon silicone lubricant would be the best. As of now my semi wont work under 130 PSI as the lubricant I am using doesnt make the action swift enough. Though I should note that this gun is brand new and still in brake in period.

 

Soon I'll have enough time to tinker with this, so I guess I'll get the few quirks in control.

[BaBaBooey]

Ive been playing airsoft for the past 8 years or so, owned over 250+ guns

 

That's quite a pace! I'm bad at math, but isn't that getting nearly 3 a month? In nearly 30 years of airsofting I think I've owned about 10 or 12.

 

Steel internalled WOC = Out the box reliability and awesome looks, but pricey and hard to find.

WOC-X = Out the box reliability and awesome looks, but parts will eventually need replacing.

KWA = Out the box reliability, not quite as awesome looks, but much better priced and guaranteed leak free included magazine.

 

I think it's a tad unfair to judge the reliability of a WOC on one of the very first available models or a custom build using non standard parts, when later models of the WOC have been proven to be very good guns with maybe a little tweaking required.

 

I can agree with this...my WA is indeed heavily customized and was originally purchased in 2008. I indeed have not used any recent G&P guns.

[hwagan]

When I lived with my parents in the good old days of ACM stuff being everywhere, I'd quite happily order 3-4 guns on a paycheque at the end of the month because I didn't have rent to pay.... I miss those days

 

And BBB, even if your AR's didn't work at all they're still the best looking GBBR AR-15's I've seen on these forums.. I'd say the money and effort in getting them going right was well worth it personally

[bankz5152]

That's quite a pace! I'm bad at math, but isn't that getting nearly 3 a month? In nearly 30 years of airsofting I think I've owned about 10 or 12.

 

That sounds far too much! It must be less.. Though most of that is trades and a lot is buying guns for parts especially P90s in which i've had 7 as well as a large chunk being guns I buy broken/leaking split a sell for parts usually making a profit or repair and sell for a profit.

 

Finally settled on a nice collection of which I'd never change and has stayed that way for about 4 years bar the GBBRs.

 

What can I say I *fruitcage* love guns!

[amateurstuntman]

Anti Rotation Links - What are these for?

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-wa-anti-rotation-links-for-wa-m4-series.html

 

Prevent any chance of the pins slipping out - Saying that, mine are still in fine, but they're a good idea, especially with the price.

 

 

The pins will rotate since the hammer and trigger etc. apply torque to them.

Over time (a long *albatross* time) the constant slight rotating will cause the holes in the receiver to wear away - ally receiver, steel pins - once that happens the pins are much more likely to vibrate out.

 

Anti rotation pins stop the rotation and therefore the wear meaning your receiver will last longer.

 

On an already worn receiver they reduce the chances of the pins coming out.

[hwagan]

The pins will rotate since the hammer and trigger etc. apply torque to them.

Over time (a long *albatross* time) the constant slight rotating will cause the holes in the receiver to wear away - ally receiver, steel pins - once that happens the pins are much more likely to vibrate out.

 

Anti rotation pins stop the rotation and therefore the wear meaning your receiver will last longer.

 

On an already worn receiver they reduce the chances of the pins coming out.

 

Thanks man, I'd never actually known that and probably would have ended up losing one in the middle of a game... I knew they were designed to keep the pins in, but I didn't know what caused them to come out in the first place, I'd always assumed it was in case pins were slightly off spec or something. Mine are still relatively solid but I'll definitely be putting a set on order when I can to be on the safe side

[uscmCorps]

On real firearms, they're most commonly used in receivers that have worn receiver holes (new guns rarely have that issue except for Colts that typically have oversized holes from the get go), or on guns that have drop in trigger packs like Timneys. Drop in trigger packs need them as the trigger parts are contained within their own rigid housing and therefore don't have any pressure on the receiver itself. Since the trigger and hammer pins are just pushed through the trigger pack holes and receiver pin holes and aren't under spring tension like on regular trigger setups, they have a tendency to walk/slip out.

 

I'd be surprised if GBBRs need anti-rotation pins since all the pins are constantly under spring tension, but then again, the metals used on airsoft receivers are often a little softer than RS. Either way, anti-rotation pins aren't a bad thing to have if you choose to install them since when used on receivers without pre-existing problems, anti-rotation pins aren't fixing something but instead they're just a preventative precaution.

[bankz5152]

Interesting! Good to know.

 

Well just sold my WE L85 for £400 im about £250 away!

[uscmCorps]

Also on the KWA regardless of how it performs it will look like any other M4 which im not the biggest fan of as there are so god damn many on the battlefield today. Hence why my sig is full of slightly more unique rifles/smgs/pistols.

 

Beyond the lower receiver markings, keep in mind that it's an M4. You can reconfigure it however you want, and as soon as more aftermarket parts like barrels and lower receivers come out, you're going to be able to make it unique to your own taste. I just don't see the markings as a big enough detractor when the platform is inexpensive and reliable.

 

Updated my KWA LM4 PTR last night:

 

I've built this particular gun to work as a training rifle to my RS LaRue PredatAR which I have configured in a very similar way. This is still a WIP.