TM 1911 efficiency upgrades

[BaBaBooey]

I must have writen this a bunch of times in here now.

All TM pistols are leaking the *suitcase* out of them when they leave the factory.

Be careful when you make a statement like this...did you check every single magazine that Marui has made? Let's say Marui made a total of 5,000 spare magazines in 2012...about 3,800 of the 5,000 needs to be leaking to get a 99% confidence level with a 1% interval that all their magazines made in 2012 leak to the point that they are not usable. Even if you own or have owned a 100 Marui guns and all 100 magazines were unusable, it's not even close to being statistically significant given the amount of guns Marui makes.

 

To be clear, I'm not a fan of the Marui P226R magazine. I have owned a total of seven P226R magazines and two of the seven had a major failure that could not be repaired. That said, I still wouldn't tell people that all Marui P226R magazines are highly problematic as I might be only 1 of a 1,000 people that experienced that failure.

 

I will agree that there is probably no such thing as a magazine that is 100% leak free...it's extremely unlikely. I'm sure they are venting gas, but it's at a very very slow rate. I call it a "reasonable" rate of leakage...this acceptable rate is highly judgmental and varies from each user so it's not fair to say ALL TM pistols have an unreasonable rate of leak right out of the factory.

 

I hope that makes some sense.

 

Regarding shims, from my experience (P226R and E2), shims are most effective only after the stock magazine gas routers are worn down to the point where they are no longer effective. Placing shims on my perfectly good or brand new magazine router (tested seven Marui P226R and three Marui P226E2 magazines) generally shows no quantifiable improvement in efficiency. Once that efficiency drops, yes, a shim is a great way to bring it back up. It also costs next to nothing to shim, so it's won't harm anything/anyone to try. But your mileage might vary.

[ED-SKaR]

I bought some of the mag gas routers (the purple ones, can't remember who made them) but when fitted it would jam the gun, because the TM 1911 is so well built that it doesn't need to have the original routers shimmed or raised, or replaced with taller ones.

[Im going space]

Because those are for hicapas only. Nineball make em

[Lyng]

Just to be clear, when i wrote leaking, i didnt mean gas when it wasent shooting but WHEN you pill the trigger.

Ever noticed a small dustcloud comming from the rear of the slide under blowback?

Sorry if i wasnt clear enough.

And btw as stated nineball gas routers do only fit hicapa type mags, guarder ones are the only that does fit, and they are just a tad higher then std ones in the 1911 mags.

[Stuey]

I must have writen this a bunch of times in here now.

All TM pistols are leaking the *suitcase* out of them when they leave the factory.

Tm 1911 and meu love the guarder mag rubbers, 5ku aluminum bb housing and some teflontape arround the hop-up rubber.

And if you dont want to buy the aluminum bb unit, take the original bb unit apart, gake the piston out, rubber off, take some teflontape 2 times arround the aksel the rubber is placed on and put it back together again.

With theese small mods i get arr 1.5 clip of full power at 15' celcius

 

Interesting take on things!

Improved gas routers  and teflon tape around the hop rubber I already have, I am considering a lightweight BB unit too. Not just yet though - got any more details about where the teflon tape goes on the original BB unit?

 

Though I have noticed that with the TBB I have it seems to get perhaps one or two extra shots off over it not being there. I will have to look into it and do some more testing to come to some sort of conclusion.

 

Worth a quick test maybe - makes sense though, tightbore needs slightly less gas to propel the BB cos less leaks out around it.

 

I bought some of the mag gas routers (the purple ones, can't remember who made them) but when fitted it would jam the gun, because the TM 1911 is so well built that it doesn't need to have the original routers shimmed or raised, or replaced with taller ones.

 

Yeah I've got a Nine Ball purple router in one of my mags - they're designed for the Hi-capa and Sig mags, you have to cut another slot with a craft knife so they'll fit in the single stack 1911 mags. Does give me about 5 extra shots over the stock gas router.

 

The thing Booey said about worn mags has something to it - all my mags are second hand in varying states of wear, so replacing or shimming the routers will probably improve my efficiency.

[ED-SKaR]

Just to be clear, when i wrote leaking, i didnt mean gas when it wasent shooting but WHEN you pill the trigger.

Ever noticed a small dustcloud comming from the rear of the slide under blowback?

It's supposed to do that! every gas blowback does that!

[Lyng]

No not so it's visual.

A little gas goes out with the bb, and a little when the nozzle moves out and away from the piston.

Normal you can se a little silicone Oil residue on the top of the mag if you fire 5-10 times and pull the mag out, but if it's modified with uprated gasrouters or shims, and an more airtight piston this goes away.

If it's done right, you will gain consistancy, more fps and less gas consumption

[Stuey]

OK so with a clean gun and shimmed mags I'm doing okay, but today I found this! (Nine Ball featherweight piston)

 

Now I've seen lightweight blowback units before, but this one really takes it to a new level! It weighs something like 5 grams, I'm seriously considering getting one to try it out.

 

On the other hand, paying £42 for a 5g piece of plastic embodies everything I hate about airsoft pricing...

[Lyng]

With a normal plastic slide you wont gain anything, this is intended for heavy metal slides, you will loose some bb feel

[mimesis]

I can't recommend it.  First of all, as you'll see from photo #3, the thing is incomplete.  You actually have to cannibalize the BBU you have with parts (piston head, little plate that fits on the bottom) to arrive at a full unit.  Then I found the plastic legs had a tendency to bend/warp, so getting the nozzle to slide back and forth smoothly was virtually impossible.  I didn't spend that much, but whatever it was, was a total waste of money.

[Stuey]

That's a shame. Saved me forty quid though! having to move a couple of parts over doesn't bother me much, the thing deforming does though. I did think that an all plastic BBU might be a bit flimsy, guess I was right

 

The whole 'doesn't benefit the gun unless it has a metal slide' makes no sense though. I've seen it said in a few places - so kick will be reduced but performance won't change? How does that work then eh? Any reduction in the weight of the slide should give increased cycle speed and reduced gas usage (at the expense of kick) surely.

 

Any other ideas for lightening my slide? AIP do a lightweight alloy BBU for about £30, does weight a whole 18 grams though! lol

[mimesis]

Actually, that BBU is meant for use with the lightweight plastic slides also made by Nine Ball (Laylax), some of which can be seen here:  http://laylax.wn.shopserve.jp/SHOP/g4749/list.html

 

They're for certain kinds of pistol competitions.

[Lyng]

Well ive bern using that nineball bb unit with a guarder slide in one of my 5.1 hicapas for over 3000 bb's and no problems what so ever, and its intended to use all the std parts from the original bb-unit.

All of these bb units are made for a purpus, not just looks, and yes it's intended for pistol competetions with laylax slides but not for high pressure gas types as this will tare them apart.

If you really are up for getting all out of your gun then the wery first place to start is getting it 100% effecient, that means using tips and tricks to make the system more airtight that means: gasrouter to nozzle, piston to nozzle, jet nozzle inside loading nozzle, hop-up rubber and hop-up unit.

Not before this is done you wont feel the full effect of changing parts.

[ED-SKaR]

I use a Chinese lightweight BBU that has been swisscheesed, And I use a plastic slide, the total mass that cycles is nothing.

I haven't done this for gas efficiency, I've done this for cycle speed, as I prefer that to big chunky heavy recoil that everyone else seems to love so much

 

I also bored out the spring cap to fit a sturdier spring, makes the slide lighter (by probably such a tiny ammount) and the spring makes the gun cycle faster, but the spring probably also makes the gun use more gas.

[Stuey]

Tell me more! Which unit do you have? Plastic or metal?

 

I know you did it for a different reason, but I am also trying to get a nice light slide! Cycle speed and gas efficiency pretty much go hand in hand, ultra snappy cycling at normal temps means less sluggish in winter.

 

By spring you mean the recoil spring right? Well yes a stiffer one will increase your gas consumption. I'm fine with the stock one, cycle speed is fine for me.

[ED-SKaR]

Not that much more to say, the BBU was from RSOV but they don't list it anymore, I drilled very small holes into the outer shell and the piston shaft just to remove weight (Careful not to weaken the structure of it though)

 

The recoil spring (yes that spring) was an element (I think) and it was too large to fit into the spring cap properly so it would essentially short stroke the slide, I bored out the spring cap to make it fit properly, and so the slide would cycle fully, then I drilled holes in the side of that too (Because it's covered by the slide so you can't see it anyway) Again, very small holes and not affecting the structure of the part.

 

I also have an "air seal" hop rubber (nineball???) and a TB barrel, they don't make the gun use less gas, but it does a little more with the same amount of gas.

 

The only alteration in the frame is the BB under the MS, even then I'm always emptying a mag and locking the slide back in less than 0 temperature.

 

Mags are standard TM mags, I don't play enough any more to warrant spending any money on the long mags (as much as I'd love them) and I didn't experience good results with the gas routers so I removed those.

[Stuey]

Was it a metal BBU?

 

By MS are you referring to the main spring i.e. the hammer spring? Was that to up the power slightly?

 

Sounds promising anyway, thanks for the help!

 

I have a nine ball purple gas router fitted to one of my mags, it does work in that I get more shots from that mag but it's not designed for the single stack 1911 and sticks up too much. There's so much tension in there that the mag often pops out when I fire! I think I'm going to try shimming the mags with plastic sheet instead (I have eight mags too so buying nine ball parts would cost a fortune).

[Lyng]

If you have the single stack mags then the guarder gasrouters fits perfect and they cost what 4.5$ i think, shimming the mags can be a pain in the *albatross* to get perfect.

Maybe i should make that piston airtight guide and put up

[ED-SKaR]

Was it a metal BBU?

yes, aluminium I think.

 

By MS are you referring to the main spring i.e. the hammer spring? Was that to up the power slightly?

The Main Spring is the Main Spring, the Recoil Spring is the Recoil Spring.

[Stuey]

If you have the single stack mags then the guarder gasrouters fits perfect and they cost what 4.5$ i think, shimming the mags can be a pain in the *albatross* to get perfect.

Maybe i should make that piston airtight guide and put up

 

Maybe you should I'd read it anyway.

 

I've actually got one of those Guarder rubbers (bought one with the Nine Ball to test them out), it is an improvement but I have so many mags buying new routers is kind of expensive

 

yes, aluminium I think.

 

The Main Spring is the Main Spring, the Recoil Spring is the Recoil Spring.

 

Well...that's obtuse, I still don't know which one you're referring to...

 

I'm guessing you are talking about the hammer spring (the one in the grip/backstrap)...did you feel that power was lacking?

[ED-SKaR]

I still don't know which one you're referring to...

Neither do I, it's Chinese and not made any more, so it's irrelevant anyway.

 

 

I'm guessing you are talking about the hammer spring (the one in the grip/backstrap)

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=anatomy+of+a+1911

 

 

...did you feel that power was lacking?

No, but a harder (or pretentioned) hammer spring means faster cycle speed.

[Stuey]

Neither do I, it's Chinese and not made any more, so it's irrelevant anyway.

 

 

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=anatomy+of+a+1911

 

 

No, but a harder (or pretentioned) hammer spring means faster cycle speed.

 

So they're the same thing. Could have just said that.

 

Right I see, but presumably it would increase power? And use slightly more gas?

 

Think my list of upgrades is almost done...

[ED-SKaR]

So they're the same thing. Could have just said that.

 

Right I see, but presumably it would increase power? And use slightly more gas?

 

Think my list of upgrades is almost done...

I could explain everything in every post, and have every post I write be a thousand words, or I could assume that people on a 1911 technical thread know about the 1911 platform.

 

 

But yes, the pretension in the MS makes the gun use more gas, that gives the gun a little more FPS and recoil. you know, like with every GBB platform.

Just with the 1911, the spring is 6mm wide, so a BB can be used to pretension the spring.

[Stuey]

I could explain everything in every post, and have every post I write be a thousand words, or I could assume that people on a 1911 technical thread know about the 1911 platform.

 

 

But yes, the pretension in the MS makes the gun use more gas, that gives the gun a little more FPS and recoil. you know, like with every GBB platform.

Just with the 1911, the spring is 6mm wide, so a BB can be used to pretension the spring.

 

Well IMO that's possibly an unfair assumption, I would say the reverse could be true - the very fact that I started a thread to ask 1911 technical questions might suggest that I'm not all that familiar with the gun (that is indeed the case, it's my first one). And 1000 words wasn't necessary, you could have just said 'yes' when I asked if MS meant main spring, i.e. the hammer spring. Rather than some sarky auto-Google link.

 

Oh I see. Fair enough. Given that my goal is maximum shots per charge and I'm otherwise happy with the performance, I'll probably give that mod a miss. I bought what appears to be a cheap Element clone of the Nine Ball Dyna piston head on a whim, will be interesting to play around with.

 

My list is currently:

 

- shim magazine gas routers

- fit o-ring piston head

- buy and fit new blowback unit, possibly drill lightening holes

- buy and fit Nine Ball purple hop rubber

[ED-SKaR]

Yes... I may have been a tad rude there...

 

Sorry.

 

 

 

With the magazine, you can't do both the 9-ball router AND the shimming, as they both do the same job and you'll just have a gun that'll jam all the time.

Start with thin material, the only thing I can think of is paper, to shim the existing rubber piece, as it's cheaper than the nineball ones, and you can adjust it (with two or three pieces of paper) until you get the right tolerance with your slide, you can also match all your magazines to the gun. Don't assume that all your mags will need the same ammount of shimming.

 

Many BBUs come with a piston head, o-ring types in every case I've seen, so it's just a case of testing the compression of that piston head and adjusting as needed.

 

 

Just how much gas efficiency do you need? Most airsofters would be happy so long as it shot all 26 rounds and locked back the slide, after a little testing and thinking, I recon you'd need another 7-10 shots after that to make sure that the 26th shot felt full recoil (as the gas runs out)

So InMyOpinion.HashTag Once you reach 35 shots, and that's not that hard for a plastic slide 1911, that's enough. So long as it does that in 0 degrees (mine does at -4) I'd go for increasing the range with everything that's left.

 

unless you're using 40 round mags... then I'd guess at about 50 to make sure that the 40th fire properly.