Wide Bore Barrels on VSRs and Gbbrs

[renegadecow]

With the more affordable Prometheus wide bore barrel coming I'm interested if anyone's tried using it with a gbbr or any gas gun for that matter as well as a VSR-10. Most if not all reviews I've read on the Orga wide bore involved regular aegs and Polarstars where they performed exceptionally well on the latter. I suppose aegs lack the air volume to make that air cushioning effect useful enough if that really is the mechanism going on in wide bores. Now back to gbbrs and VSRs where they are massively over volumed I was hoping the same results might have been observed by anyone that's tried it. And if so, just how tighter grouping at distance are we talking?

[Seraphim989]

I was looking into this a few weeks ago for my GBBR, and was sorely disappointed at the lack of information.  I think few people have done it, since the public consensus is that they're for Polarstars.  It's not as viable for some rifles, since I've heard of people losing almost 100fps with an orga barrel(especially troublesome with the fps variations of GBBRs), but with sniper rifles it could well be viable

[3vi1-D4n]

Are there actual tests done with this?  Or is it like most of the stuff in airsoft, just a fad?

 

I had some 6.2mm barrels when YP and Toystar made their FAMAS, they shot like poop.  Upgrading to a 6.04mm made all the difference... 

 

I am rather tired of 3rd party parts that basically waste my time/money while decreasing performance.

[Seraphim989]

I play with a guy who runs a polarstar with one.  The performance is good, quite good, but not much better, if at all, than my teammate running an AEG with a properly installed rhop or me running my tuned WE G36s.  That said, those three guns are very noticeably better than the rest of the guns we encounter.  You can do some research, they has been testing done with them in polarstars, but I didnt save any of it, since I was looking for GBBR data.  For what it is worth, I ultimately decided it wasn't worth itfor my GBBR(an orga in the length I wanted was close to $100), and went with my tried and true 6.01s with a good hop set up

[3vi1-D4n]

Not to sound like an arrgoant *beep*, but most guns I have received in my last 14 years as an airsoft tech and RS gunsmith, 95% of them have NOT been shooting stellar.  Most airsoft guns (bolt actions/AEG/GBBR) I pick up with tightbores their max effective range (able to consistently group) have been only around 40-50m (140ft).   When I pull out a pretty much stock parts MP9 or a KSC M92 I could outrange and outgroup their upgraded zero trigger VSR/L96, owners ask why.

 

This is because most people (techs included) have been very un-methodological when it comes to solving issues. 

 

Before each intervention I test the guns range, hopup characteristics, accuracy and other mechanical consistency before I start the intervention.  And each rifle is tested piece wise with each of the changes, and then as a system (along with the batteries/desired ammo etc) on the same metrics.

 

Most people I have met basically rely on 3rd party parts to provide the assumed benefit, but never realising that like anything, the new part may not give the desired effect as 3rd party parts don't work with existing bits.  In most cases the default part is the best fit and improving the default part is better than buying a whole new part.

 

That and most manufacturers also don't actually test the actual range of performance indicators.  Like the Madbull Shark rubbers, while they promise to and  DOES increase in FPS, they also increase in jamming, inconsistent hop up and a range of other issues

 

Hence my faith that 3rd party manufacturer parts deliver the performance that it promises, is very low.  There are so many examples which I can list it is not funny.  

 

So what I am interested is seeing if anyone has been able to get a 6.2mm barrel to show the variation in performance.

[renegadecow]

Again, the only credible results I've read on them are on Polarstars which have a lot of excess air coming out of them. The supposed concept of the wide bore is it creates a cushion of air around the bb to stabilize the flight instead of having it bouncing around the inner walls of a tight barrel. On a regular AEG, there's just not much excess air to use and the fps loss vs stiffer springs to compensate is a bad payoff. Here's a case of one of those Polarstars before and after the installation of an Orga Magnus 6.23mm: http://www.pstartalk.com/showthread.php?83-Barrel-hop-up-upgrade-test-results-comparison&p=322#post322

[3vi1-D4n]

Lets take a thought experiment...

 

As you know the a sphere travelling in air has a very high drag coefficient and a zone of turbulance in the wake of the BB.

 

With hop up, what it does is that it "pulls" air from the rear, pushing it from the bottom towards the oncoming air, while decreasing the air pressure at the top of the BB.  This results in the BB moving upwards.  But also the zone of turbulance decreases.  In a tightbore barrel assuming very little air is passed to the front, the BB will travel upwards and the BB will most likely come into contact, or grip the top of the barrel.

 

Now what happens when we provide more air pressure from the rear, and allow more air to pass to the front within the barrel?  The air pressure at the bottom of the barrel will push to the front, increasing the air pressure Below the BB, while the air pressure on the top will neutralise the decrease in pressure from the hop effect, net effect to hop is zero.  However, the BB will still travel upwards, which will result in the BB coming in contact with the top of the barrel. 

 

Here is where the bouncing BB theory may need to be challenged. How many times does a BB bounce in a low FPS gun vs a high FPS gun?  We can use graphite rounds to test this "bouncing" theory. 

 

My theory is simple, in a hop up gun the BBs actually grip the top of the inner barrel regardless. What the guy is experiencing is the difference in barrel diameter affecting hop engagement which affects the range. 

 

One way to test the 6.23mm Aircushion/bounce hypothesis is to turn off the hop and look at the spread of the rounds between 6.23mm and 6.01mm, for varying FPS.

 

THEN, switch on the hop and test the results.

[renegadecow]

Until you ask Scotty exactly how transparent aluminum is made we're never really going to be able to tell if a bb rides the roof of a barrel or not. Meanwhile there is enough significant feedback  pointing to wide barrels working on Polarstars and not much so on typical AEGs. Rather than ponder on something I will never be able to investigate further (and out of my own pocket) I'd rather work on something that's already been tried, if it has been tried that is and that's a wide bore with a gas gun/VSR-10. Also your experience with YP and Toystar barrels probably has less to do with the diameter of the bore but of how badly the barrels were made.

[Wingmann]

If -as I think- BBs travel the top of the barrel, I would bet that a triangular shaped barrel would have excellent accuracy.

[renegadecow]

Not triangular technically, but I recall seeing a barrel somewhere with channels cut along the length resembling an upright triangle. Was supposed to bleed air forcing the bb up. Not sure if it was even made or just a concept.

[3vi1-D4n]

Again, simply, turn off the hop and test the barrels.  That way we would be able to test the bounce theory, or if another theory is required to explain the perceived performance increase on a Polar star.

[emp3ror86]

It would be interesting to watch a comparison between a stock marui barrel, the Miracle one (6.06), this Prometheus widebore and  a PDI 6.01.

[Rob15]

Until you ask Scotty exactly how transparent aluminum is made we're never really going to be able to tell if a bb rides the roof of a barrel or not.

Two words,

 

Micrometer blue.

 

If you could manage apply a thin layer of micrometer blue to the inside of a barrel (a short barrel would certainly be the easiest to do it on) you could then fit it, fire some rounds through then look at where the micrometer blue has been worn off, if they are consistantly riding along the top of the barrel then there would be a clear line, one that would be even more noticable on wide-bore barrels if the BBs are still riding along the top.

[Roland1014]

I was thinking about putting one in my GHK. I guess we'll see where this thread goes.

[kojak]

I use a very short 6.23 barrel in one of my AEG uppers; there's definitely a power loss but I pair it with an overpowered lower with a full cylinder to compensate.  Compared to a tightbore in the same gun there is a slight but noticeable improvement in grouping with the ORGA.  Longer widebore barrels don't work well in AEGs since there isn't enough cylinder volume to allow for the air that passes around the BB. 

[3vi1-D4n]

Two words,

 

Micrometer blue.

 

If you could manage apply a thin layer of micrometer blue to the inside of a barrel (a short barrel would certainly be the easiest to do it on) you could then fit it, fire some rounds through then look at where the micrometer blue has been worn off, if they are consistantly riding along the top of the barrel then there would be a clear line, one that would be even more noticable on wide-bore barrels if the BBs are still riding along the top.

 

 

IF is the word.  But worth a try   Similarly graphite BBs also work.

 

Unless we use some sort of vibration sensor or strain gauge, and a finite elements vibration model....er no

 

I think we should test with and without the hop and set some Hypothesis.

[QQexDERA]

Lots of ORGA 6.23's around in the PTW community getting good results. As to the BB riding the top of the barrel, thats old tech. Very old tech. It's what the LRB's I was messing around with 20 years ago relied upon in order to induce backspin on the BB.

[Norotor]

Some people in the states are actually bending their barrels 1-2mm downward to force it to ride along the top, trying to mimic the classic LRBs. "Supposedly" works quite well and makes flight path very consistent. If the bent barrel really makes a difference, I'd think that it doesn't ride along the top with a normal setup.

[renegadecow]

PTWs? Don't those only have the same AEG air volume? Worth a read I suppose only I've been avoiding them as some have a tendency of seeing too highly of their guns. Can't fault them at that too, if I paid over a grand for a toy I'd believe it's the best.

 

@Kojak

I don't supose I could bother you for the specifics so I could calculate how much over volume you were running at, and a comparison on paper between the two barrels?

[Norotor]

But like all other claims of 6 inch groupings at 350ft etc etc with "x" modification, they're almost never backed with any proof. You'd think with something working that well, there would be some boasting with a video? That goes for wide bores, modern LRBs, BASRs hitting 150m etc.

[QQexDERA]

Yup, fixed air volume as per a regular AEG. The PTW owners I know who've used the Orga barrels are good guys, very much interested in rinsing every last drop of performance out of the platform - not the types to parade around a safezone dropping "this is my Systema" type comments to all and sundry.

 

Some pretty decent comparisons (range testing etc.) between stock and Orga barrels can be found over at the PTW forum.

 

@Norotor

 

You don't hang out on the Airsoft Mechanics forum. Everything is treated as BS unless proved otherwise - and they don't treat those who make unsubstantiated claims too pleasantly over there lol

[ShinSeiki]

I have been contemplating a wide bore for my vector, as i need it to put out about 20fps less than stock. This might kill two birds with one stone, eliminating the need for a fiddly NPAS valve.

[renegadecow]

You don't hang out on the Airsoft Mechanics forum. Everything is treated as BS unless proved otherwise

From my brief stay there they also treat people who play milsim, use Systema guns, gas guns or even low/mid cap mags as BS. They even had an official thread for making fun of milsimmers fanned by a moderator no less with IBMedic doing most of the bashing as he can't do the same here (a much as he tried to start it). Went real ugly towards the end as the hate flowed over to Caucasian expats working in Hong Kong. When I had to reformat my pc and my ip address was again blocked as spam I didn't even bother requesting an unblock after all I've seen.

[kojak]

Same here pretty much; I used to lurk there often, but lost my ASM password and never bothered recovering it.  Funny how a good and simple idea as an airsoft forum based on solid engineering could be so poorly implemented.  

 

@Kojak
I don't suppose I could bother you for the specifics so I could calculate how much over volume you were running at, and a comparison on paper between the two barrels? 

 

 

I'll work up the FPS with all four upper/lower combinations if that helps.  Shouldn't take too long.

[3vi1-D4n]

Same here pretty much; I used to lurk there often, but lost my ASM password and never bothered recovering it.  Funny how a good and simple idea as an airsoft forum based on solid engineering could be so poorly implemented.  

 

 

Engineering minds aren't exactly great on social engineering.  I am one such example myself.