Punisher and Pulp Fiction

[Antagon]

Pato, they arent chrome, rather stainless steel

 

Marcus, my apologies for calling you 1911, lol.

 

It's pretty funny how Sam Jackson frowns upon the .45 in Jackie Brown, and he carries a 9mm in Pulp Fiction.

 

As for the comp, i'll either have it made from stainless, or 7075. Oh the wonders of having a local airsoft machinist

[Marcus]

Antagon,

 

The MEU would be a good starting point, imho, unless you're going to do the gun in full metal. To go full metal with the SD MkIV frame, all you really need as far as stock WA parts go would be the internals.

 

It is unfortunate that the Shooters CDP slide is commander length, since it would otherwise be a perfect candidate, as it already has the rear Novak cut.

If you have access to a machinist, why don't you get the whole slide machined, as well? Also, any decent machine shop should be able to do a front-cocking serrating job on a Colt slide originally without.

 

On a side note, if you're actually building this gun, I probably have some spare parts you could use, Sheriff stainless ambi-safety and Sheriff (black) mainspring housing with magwell. Let me know if you're interested!

 

Pato,

 

Here is a pic straight off auto-ordnance.com:

 

 

Note that the gun Travolta uses is a pre-Thompson/Kahr Auto-Ordnance, these days all the AO guns are built off Caspian frames and Chip McCormick slides, I'm not really sure what his is.

 

Couldn't find a good chrome or stainless Star for ya, but here's a S.A. MilSpec:

 

 

M.

[Pato]

Thanks!

But doesn't the finish of the guns used in the movie look more like this?

 

 

I'll try to get the movie on DVD and post some screenshots.

[Antagon]

It looks like this, a little more shiny though.

 

Marcus, you've been more than helpful, thank you

 

Like I said i'd prefer not to use SD parts, because recent offerings are cast, not machined.

 

I do have access to a very skilled machinist, but an entire slide would be extremely costly.

 

Do you think you can link me to the parts you're talking about though? I've never really looked into WA and its aftermarket parts until now, so any more specific info/pics is always helpful

 

As for parts, if they go on the gun, then i'd be more than happy to take em off your hands

[Catchv22]

Antagon looking for information on WA parts? The end of the world is near!

[draco_1967]

^

 

I do seem to remembering you poo-pooing WA in the past quite a bit. Has being shoved into the world of classics changed this?

[Antagon]

To hell with WA! Unfortunatly, only they make the model I need, guess i'm SOL eh?

[Marcus]

Antagon,

 

I wouldn't hesitate to use Shooters for the GM MkIV stuff, I've received 3 frames and 5 slides over the past few weeks, and all have been cleanly machined.

 

This is what I would use myself, if building the Punisher-gun:

 

(pictures pilfered from the web, sorry 'bout the quality)

 

I have a spare black Sheriff MSH magwell and stainless-finish ambi-safety, if you're interested. I would definitely use Sheriff parts for the safety, MSH and beavertail, as the metal used is such a huge upgrade from stock WA parts, but I guess you could skimp a bit and used whatever's supplied with the source GBB.

 

The reddish tinge to stock WA metal parts indicate too high a zinc content for me to be comfortable, especially the parts that are in contact with greasy palms, and almost all of my WA beavertails have stained and needed refinishing.

 

The frame-picture is from DEN's website, it isn't actually radiused at the tangs for a beavertail, the picture used is wrong. You'll have to radius the tangs yourself with a file, it's not difficult, but since it's a black frame you'll have to refinish/touch up that area.

You could use a black Caspian frame, it's radiused, but it's also Caspian-marked (doh).

 

The beavertail/safety hole in the SD frame is also undersize, either expand it or use a Sheriff safety without the bushing that goes around the two connecting rods, which is not present on the WA stock safety.

 

You'll have to cut the slide for a Novak/Wilson/(Heinie) rear sight, also easy to do with a good needle file, and refinish (done it several times). Just make sure you use the appropriate breech for the sight!

 

I wouldn't skimp on a good (Guarder/IS I suppose) chamber, Sheriff/Guarder barrel/bushing combo and trigger, they add weight and solidity and a Sheriff barrel/bushing with Guarder inner barrel bushing ensures rock-solid lockup.

 

You'll find all the above parts on DEN, under Shooters Design and Pistol Related.

 

On the finish of the Pulp Fiction 1911's; the guns themselves are milspec(ish), no beavertail, no extended safety and arched MSH's, they have probably been hard chromed, not nickel plated or polished.

Master pistolsmith Virgil Tripp pioneered hard chroming (as well as being one letter in STI, Strayer-Tripp International), Springfield Armory sends all of their chromed guns off to Tripp's workshop for finishing.

Just a tidbit of useless information!

 

M.

 

PS. If you decide to go with the "full build" and get Sheriff trigger and slide stop, Guarder extended firing pin, JP sear spring, Sheriff or HK hammer, strut and sear, Colt grips etc. you'll end up with about... 7 parts from WA, plungers and plunger spring, firing pin spring, firing pin stop (although you can use just about any bit of metal and drill a hole in it), valve lock release, disconnect guide+spring and magazine. Considering the size of those components, execpt for the mag, it's really not a WA anymore, if it ever was

[Banzai]

just as a side note i remember reading that the 1911's that the punisher carries are not .45 cal but a smaller caliber something like 9 or 10mm and allows him to share ammo between his other weapons he carries.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

pshht, that wouldnt be a problkem (.45) if he had a tommy gun

[Antagon]

I swear, if you were a woman i'd say I love you, hah.

 

Lets see, where to start.

 

First, I meant I wouldnt trust SHERIFF frames and slides, as they are cast. Not SD, we all know theyre machined

 

What is a "tang"? Like I said, I'm relatively new to the 1911 world, so I don't know all the terminology.

 

 

What do you mean by "breech for the sight"?

 

No doubt I'll be going all with the pistol (as I do with all my guns, you should see my SP M16 right now ). I'll be getting Guarder Stainless parts, and every other usefull upgrade under the sun.

 

One thing I dont understand, is how exactly does the comp attach to the gun? In the movie, you clearly see the recoil spring guide rod sticks out when the slide is pulled back, unlike the original 1911.

 

And the pulp fiction thing, thats not useless info, as I'll be making one of those guns in the future as well

[Antagon]

Just saw your edit, too lazy to do my own. Would it be best if I didn't buy a gun? And just built one from parts?

 

EDIT: (oh the irony). JESUS CHRIST, the frame is some 230USD! I don't know if I feel comfortable dropping so much on a non functional part.

[Marcus]

 

Antagon,

 

As you can see, the radiused frame has the protruding tangs countoured to allow a smooth beavertail fit.

 

By breech, I mean the part of the blowback assembly that goes into the rear of the slide, older-style Novaks require the 1-hole breech that you fasten with a screw from the underside, and up into the sight, whereas Bo-mar knockoffs require two short screws from the top down into the breech. The SCW system also uses two screws, but at a different position. The GM MkIV slide is cut for a dovetail rear sight, so you'll have to shape it and seat the sight properly, to ensure good fit and positive alignment with the inserted breech.

 

In the movie, how do you see the recoil rod? As the comp can't be pulled back with the slide, and the frame is stationery? Isn't that pretty much an impossibility...?

On a side note, you probably want to go with a reverse plug, not a FLGR-bushing plug, since I think it would be a good idea to drill a hole in the end of a guide rod to screw the comp into.

 

And yes, the SD frames are expensive... it's the price of doing business, Sheriff frames go for anything between $200 and $300, and that's *if* you can source them, my CL IED frame was $400 plus refinishing!

 

The only thing you need to worry about with the SD frames would be the refinishing after radiusing, you could always get a Caspian-marked frame if you don't want to do this. You'll still have to do some filing, though, so refinishing *will* be needed... the minimum of work you'll have to do is widen the beavertail/safety hole and smooth out the mag funnel.

 

I have some things that might help you knock a few bucks off the total cost, my Sheriff stainless ambi-safety is N.I.B. and since I don't want to lose too much money when selling it (otherwise I might as well use it sometime), I'd want about $60 posted for it, the MSH with magwell has been fitted but only fired one mag thru, and absolutely never skirmished with.

The MSH includes mainspring and everything, so you don't need to get a Guarder 150% mainspring then, and I have lots of spare 150% recoil springs.

 

You do need parts from a gun that you can't readily source, such as plungers+plunger spring, firing pin spring, valve lock release, etc. The good thing is that these are the same on all WA guns, so you can pilfer them from pretty much anything. You *might* be able to order them directly from WA, too.

 

Some of WA's part are decent, I, for instance, usually don't replace the mag catch and trigger with aftermarket parts, as I feel that $45 just for a trigger is a bit steep.

 

M.

[Pato]

The guns look really shiny in some scenes. What do you think the finish is when you see those pictures?

(I love those grips. Does anyone know where those are available?)

 

 

 

[Marcus]

Pato,

 

www.gunaccessories.com/PearlikeGrips/index.asp or just search for "mother of pearl colt 1911 grip"

 

M.

[Pato]

Thanks!

What I forgot to ask:

I really like the look of the S.A. MilSpec that's in the picture you posted. Do you maybe know a website with a lot of good quality pictures of different 1911s?

[Marcus]

Pato,

 

forums.1911forum.com and do a search for, uh, pictures

 

M.

[Antagon]

Marcus, while I'm all for accuracy, I'm not gonna worry about something as insignifigant as the tanged and radiused frames, unless one "performs" better than the other, thats a feature I can omit.

 

What about that MEU I linked to earlier? I'd prefer to get something with the new SCW system if I can. I'm afraid to save costs, I just won't worry about the radiusing and the straight slide serations.

 

Heres the comp/guide rod issue.

 

Besides, in movies, the rubber prop is usually different (when talking about tiny details such as the serations) than the black firing prop, so who really knows?

[Antagon]

And no offence, but 60usd for something that's there just for looks? Not only are WA a rip off, but so are those who makes parts! I could get the real thing cheaper!

[Antagon]

Here's another version.

[Marcus]

Antagon,

 

If you look again, you'll see that a tanged frame can only accept the milspec grip safeties, whereas the radiused ones take the upswept, contoured beavertails. There are beavertails for milspec-frames available for real-steel 1911's, but the fit is usually a lot worse, your grip will ride much lower off the barrel, reducing accuracy. Besides it actually looks quite ugly!

 

I agree that $60 for a MSH with integrated magwell is quite steep, the S&A original one will set you back $75-ish though, and the CMC even more. That said, a Caspian frame is about 2/3rds of that Shooters Design-one!

 

If you want a "Punisher-perfect" gun, you could think about getting a Wilson Combat standalone magwell and mate it to your frame and MSH, it'll set you back approximately $30. Check out "The Complete Castor Troy" in the projects section, those magwells are shown there.

 

The picture you posted shows the comp not extending to the shape of the dustcover, on the Punisher-gun it does, so I guess you'll have to figure something out there! On a side note, I have more FLGRs than I know what to do with, if you want to take them off my hands. The Sheriff one is the most solid and weighs about 25% more than a stock WA part, but the Guarder/IS has better finish (which won't be much of an issue in your case, if you decide to go with the "full" comp).

 

The MEU is surely a decent candidate for your project, although personally I think that the straight serrations are more charming and characteristic than the slanted -E/National Match serrations.

 

The discrepancies with the MEU would be the memory-grooves on the speed bump of the beavertail, the straightened "SV-ish" look of the actual tail protrusion as opposed to the more upswept Wilson-look (you're going to swap it for a stainless anyway, I assume). There is also the lanyard loop on the MSH that discards the possibility of a Wilson-style magwell addon.

The upside is that you get a Colt-marked ABS frame that you can stick with, you can also keep the slide stop, mag catch, trigger and internals.

 

M.

[Antagon]

Alright Marcus, I'm pretty sure I got everything now.

 

So here's what I need.

 

WA MEU (Does this run on the new SCW System?)

SD MkIV Slide, with front serrations added, and cut to NOVAK sights

SD MkIV Frame, Caspian version, I can live with those tiny Caspian markings.

Sheriff Stainless Ambi Slide Release, Beavertail safety, Magwell (stainless, stainless, and black, respectively)

Real Colt grips

Custom Comp

 

Is that it? I still don't understand the whole recoil guide rod issue, in the punisher movie still, it attaches to the comp, in the pics of these singlestacker WAs I see, it stays inside the slide when the slide moves rearward.

 

Please tell me thats correct. And if theres a better base gun I can use, or if I'm missing anything for the PERFECT gun.

 

EDIT: Also, what the HELL do MSH and FLGR mean?

[Marcus]

Antagon,

 

MSH = MainSpring Housing

FLGR = Full-Length Guide Rod

 

In the pics you've seen where the recoil mechanism "stays inside" the slide, it is a bushing/barrel combo with a recoil plug, which is held in place by the bushing.

 

Here are the three basic types of recoil system on a 1911:

 

Note that I didn't put a breech, chamber or rear sight on the middle slide, it was just something I found in my parts-bin. The bull barrel is of course a hybrid barrel, but it doesn't change the fundamentals of a bushingless system.

 

While I had the digital camera out, I disassembled my SD frame, took some pics of the small parts/internals and whatnot and put it back together, if you're interested I can post them along with a description of the work I had to do in order to get the frame functional.

 

M.

[Marcus]

Here is a photo of the Sheriff magwell MSH and ambi-safety:

 

 

The Caspian frame is a Caspian frame, not an MkIV one since MkIV is a Colt denomination, but that's neither here nor there

 

I've never built anything off a SD Caspian, but from something I heard a long time ago, it is of a different finish than the MkIV frames, more like Black-T rather than 44/40 Gun Blue. I'm not sure about this, for all I know Shooters Design changed the finishing procedure on all their aluminium parts.

 

The SW1911-slide you see in the picture above had the Novak-cut (for old magna-system) done by me with needle files and wet paper. I probably have a better closeup somewhere if you want to see it.

 

When you say slide release, you surely mean thumb safety, I suppose you'll get a black gun and just use the stock slide stop/release.

 

As far as base gun goes, it depends what you're comfortable with. It sounds as if this is the first time you're building a 1911, I would probably not get a metal frame to begin with, and spend the initial money on slide, chamber, barrel, bushing and inner barrel bushing, as well as upgraded springs and enhanced firing pin.

 

Since you're buying MSH, beavertail and thumb safety, the base gun should have the correct trigger (3-hole Videcki), slide stop (ie. not a Wilson), hammer (stainless combat egghole) and come supplied with Novak rear sights. The MEU is surely a good candidate, only needing a hammer polish or replacement.

 

M.

[Antagon]

Alright, let me start with this. I just noticed YOU'RE the one taking these photos, not getting them off a site. Thank you VERY much, the pictures are a great help, and I'm surprised you took the time If you don't mind, what's your camera/setup? Because they look excellent.

 

You are correct in assuming this is my first 1911. But that aside, this isn't my first time with a gun. Every gun I've purchased i've taken apart ot the last pin and screw. You wan't a fun gun to disasemble, try an Asahi Bushmaster....*cries*

 

I don't plan on getting the metal frame at first, that'll be the last thing I add.

 

WA MEU (Does this run on the new SCW System?)

SD MkIV Slide, with front serrations added, and cut to NOVAK sights

SD MkIV Frame, Colt, I'll round the tang dealy's.

Sheriff Stainless Ambi Slide Release, Beavertail safety, Magwell (stainless, stainless, and black, respectively)

Real Colt grips

Custom Comp

Full Length Guide Rod

 

If thats everything, I can get to ordering parts tonight.

 

Again, thank you VERY much for all your help, I owe you.

[Marcus]

Antagon,

 

My camera is almost the cheapest digicam available, a Nikon CoolPix 2200. I only got it because I like Nikon, I used to have a CoolPix 950 back when they were considered top-of-the-line prosumer but sadly I broke it

 

Your parts-list looks perfect, you might want to add a stainless egghole combat hammer to it, unless you plan on polishing the supplied WA hammer.

 

Also, like I said, I have the Sheriff magwell MSH and thumb safety in the photo for sale, as well as a Sheriff guide rod (I can't spare a guide rod bushing plug for it, but I have plenty of reverse plugs). Comes with Guarder/IS 150% recoil spring, too, and the Sheriff magwell MSH has an upgraded spring as well.

 

List prices are (according to DEN):

• Sheriff Guide rod $26.00
  
• Sheriff Extended ambi safety $68.00
  
• Sheriff MSH with magwell $98.00
  
• Guarder Recoil spring $5 (listed as $10 for both recoil spring and mainspring)
  

The guide rod and safety are N.I.B. and as stated above, the MSH hasn't been skirmished with, just fitted and unfitted. The recoil spring has never been fitted/compressed.

Those four items are yours for $150+postage, sorry I can't knock it down further but I'd rather use it for some future project unless I can recap at least some of my cost.

 

I believe the MEU runs on the new SCW system, yes.

 

M.