The most reliable AR15 GBBR to this date?

[cavapanther]

I know this very question has been asked many times across the boards, but the reason I am bringing this up because new GBBRs are made every now and then, new parts, new guns and even new manufacturers come and go. I am also in the market looking for a good, soild reliable gun to replace my current G&P WOC. Just to give a little of background, I have been into GBBR ever since the original WA was released. Then I moved on to G&P WOC back in 2008, I bought two of them. I sold one last year and still have been using the other one whenever I am not taking my GHK AKs. I have to say, despite many mediocre reviews I have seen on the woc, and the negative feedback I have heard from other users, mine is surprisingly well and relaible. I have fired over thousands of rounds with it, the gun has been dropped a few times and slightly abused but nothing so far has stop it from shooting.

 

The reason I am looking to get a new gun because the woc is not compatible with many RS accesories I have. Of course I can do some extra work to modify the gun, but I would much rather get a 1:1 scale true spec dimension replica. I also have more than 10 pro win (version 2) mags that I used for my woc, and I intend to use those mags for my new gun as well, preferably with no modification required to the gun or the mags. Right now I have come up with three choices: Prime, Inokatsu, Viper. I am sure they are all RS dimension, but I need some advice on the mags. Prime probably offers slightly better quality among the rest, but I need to buy each and every parts to assemble the rifle because Prime don't come in complete rifle. There are some conflict between ino and viper. A mate told me not to get inokatsu because their rifle was actually manufactured by Viper all along, and since viper started selling guns on their own, Inokatsu will not update their GBBR anymore (so ino 2011 is their last M4?) and parts will be more diffcult to find. I need someone to confirm this. As for Viper, I have heard about their QC is not as good as ino and is more likely to get a lemon from them?

 

Overall, I want to get some insight into the quality among the three brands. I want to confirm whether they are real steel dimension, their mag compatibilty as well and which would make a better gun out of the three? Of course I am open to other brands provided they are entitled to those requirements I need. Thanks in advance.

[vorpalbunnie]

From what I've heard/read the KJW TK M4s are the best performing GBBR M4s on the market. But at the same time I haven't seen them compared to INOs and Vipers, just to LM4s, WAs, and WOCs.

 

Again, not an expert here.

[cavapanther]

KWA/KSC are pretty decent as well, but they don't use prowin mags, I have nearly 20 of those... so yeah, this topic is only for WA system.

[TheFull9]

Far as I've been able to gather, either Viper were just Ino 'seconds' or Ino were taking Vipers and just tarting them up a bit, either way they're going to be much alike in their specs. I saw ProWin selling different gaskets that are apparently required to use their magazines in Ino/Viper rifles, so take that as you will.

 

Building a gun with Prime parts is something of a different beast I would imagine. If you've got the tools, the time and the know-how that'll possibly be the best option in the long term presuming you're happy to spend a lot of cash on bits and a lot more time fitting & filing.

[kagami]

Prime parts? if youre talking internals then you'll be disappointed to know theyre the same as G&P steel. The bolt carrier is something different however the carrier has never been a failure point on a WA gun.

 

The KJW is the most reliable GBBR out of the box. With the cradle airsoft upgrades I've seen some unbelievably reliable performance. You're looking at WA, VFC, KSC/KWA, WE, KJW. As you go down this list in this order you lose realism and gain reliability. Also if you're going to buy a WA gun, don't waste your time with anything else than a Viper unless you like fixing things right away. The Inokatsu is too expensive for what it's worth.

 

If you end up building a WA, anticipate at least more than what an Inokatsu would cost at 1k if you want it done with any sense of satisfaction internally and externally. My gun is running up on around 3.2k USD, I have not seen a bigger money pit in airsoft yet.

[TheFull9]

WE more reliable than the KWA?  Can't see how that can be if we're talking about guns in their stock form, especially given the WE internals are pot metal.

 

I'm sure you have you reasons for thinking that, doesn't tally with what I've seen though.

[Finbarqs]

well since the OP wants 1:1 scale, then prime, ino, and viper as he stated. If you want Forged receivers (for even more realism) then you have 2 choices: ino and viper. I have both Inokatsu and Viper. Inokatsu OOTB performance will last a couple of thousand rounds before you run into some issues. But since doing some "upgrades" it's been a champ so far.

 

Anyways, the upgrades I've done is the O-Ring behind the bolt/nozzle - to a different material so they don't swell up.

 

Then I replaced the entire hop up system as it's . I went for Viper's instead. Now it runs like a champ.

 

My 2012 viper MK18 has been running pretty darn good. Problem is that without modification, it will only lock back on EB Mags. GHK, Pro-Win, G&P, WA, forget it, there's no stopping mechanism without modding the mag or the gun itself. That's because the viper's are short stroked.

 

But yeah, Viper OOTB performance I'd say is probably right up there with KJW. Great externals, and great internals. But to me, ino has better externals; the finish is better.

[akiraspeedstar]

My gun is running up on around 3.2k USD, I have not seen a bigger money pit in airsoft yet.

O_O Holy *suitcase*!

[Fox62]

WE more reliable than the KWA?  Can't see how that can be if we're talking about guns in their stock form, especially given the WE internals are pot metal.

 

I'm sure you have you reasons for thinking that, doesn't tally with what I've seen though.

 

It's a huge misconception. WE guns run beautifully because the internals are optimized for Airsoft, who cares what material they are? Put steel parts and the guns will run worse than stock unless you know what you're doing.

 

Change ONE part to steel in a WA Alu gun (G&P WOC-X), and the whole thing breaks down, if it didn't come broken stock.

 

I thought the list kagami made was pretty accurate. WA guns are a money trap. They are nice and realistic though.

 

But we're off-topic. To the OP, you should get a Viper.

 

 

Fox.

[Lasairiona]

I loved my g&p woc :-). The only problems I had was the carrier after installing a ra-tech nozzle, went back to the original nozzle and a new carrier and problem solved.

I had 2prowin mags v2 but the hammer spring wasn't able to open the valve like it should.

What I'm saying is that as long as I let the woc stock I didn't have problems, as soon as an upgrade went in the problems began...

 

Greetings

[TheFull9]

It's a huge misconception. WE guns run beautifully because the internals are optimized for Airsoft, who cares what material they are? Put steel parts and the guns will run worse than stock unless you know what you're doing.

 

That's not what I've seen personally, but then that's why everyone has different opinions so there's not a lot of point arguing about it.  Unless there's someone out there who owns about 50 of each brand there's never going to be a conclusive answer.

[cavapanther]

Since Viper does not have the correct trademark, is it possible to replace a viper's lower with prime's?

[cavapanther]

Or can I put all viper's internal in a prime's upper and lower receiver set?

[PureSilver]

I had 2prowin mags v2 but the hammer spring wasn't able to open the valve like it should.

 

To use ProWin magazines, most GBBRs require a stronger hammer spring to strike properly.

 

Since Viper does not have the correct trademark, is it possible to replace a viper's lower with prime's?

 

Viper's receivers (like Inokatsu's) are the only forged receivers in the airsoft world. Switching from Viper to Prime is a downgrade, even if it doesn't immediately seem like it. If you don't like Viper's markings, Viper will happily etch different ones on there if you contact them. In my admittedly limited experience, Inokatsu's receivers are the best WA receivers, period. They are, however, extortionately expensive, unless you buy the rather bargainous B-Grade CQBR RedWolf's currently offering.

[bladerunner168]

I can only give advice based on what I have owned:

 

WE KAC PDW (strictly not AR15 but pretty much the same) - short term option but it's cheap. I ran into issue's around 3000 bb's in, gave up after that.

 

WA - Both orginal WA HW ABS and G&P WOC's (old school steel guts) - superb platform but will cost you a bit to make it regularly skirmishable, not quite 3.2K but budget for another USD 500-1000 for internals. 

 

KSC - Original S7 M4A1 -  Genuine out of the box usability, a few minor cheap tweaks and you have a gem on your hands.

 

KSC/KWA - LM4 platform - Cheapish, reliable, good internals, cheap tweaks make this a very nifty, reliable and regularly skirmishable RIF. Only drawback are the 750g PMAGS, totally unnecessary but they are built like slabs of granite. 

[QQexDERA]

A quick FYI on KWA and KSC. KWA US models (LM4) and the KSC M4 models have different length receivers, bolts, charging handles, buffers and buffer springs. We now have an "official" EU distributor for KWA guns, but they are yet to respond to an email about whether its the Asian or US version they will be flogging to EU retailers.

 

There are some good pics of the differences at http://kwausa.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9892.

[IBMedic]

The only truly reliable and test GBBR I've had so far is the KWA MP7.  I put thousands of rounds through it and never had any serious failures.  All BBs feed, non crushed, no mag blow outs, no broken internals, nothing.

For the short time I had my KJW and KWA M4s, I also had not a single issue. But I've only put a few rounds through those.

Every WA based platform though, I rarely see going through more than a few mags without some major failure.

The WA system is just bad, period.

I have the KWA Kriss now, and I think it will work well.  Other than a sticky bolt, no mechancial failures so far.

[Danke]

The KWA MP7 is a treat. About all you'll see on that is a swollen hop up rubber and it's not bad to replace.

 

The "best" gas rifle is the one you like.

 

They all have warts and they all will fail.

 

You will see people who flat out hate WE because theirs never worked and others who love them because theirs ticks along like a Timex. You'll see Inno or WA owners ready to slit their wrists and the very mention of the brand and others who praise them too the moon.

 

So what do you do? Pick what platform of rifle you want, AK, AR, or one of the oddballs. Research each brand that makes one and see what you can buy and more importantly what spares are available where you live. No point getting the only Kriss on the block and having it go down with a 8 month wait on a part you need. Once you pick the platform and brand research all the preventative maintenance and be ready to jump in.

 

For the OP it seems like you know what you want. Just listen to the voice inn your head. For other folks, read and follow the Coles notes above.

[PureSilver]

The only truly reliable and test GBBR I've had so far is the KWA MP7.  [...] I have the KWA Kriss now, and I think it will work well.

 

GBBR = Gas BlowBack Rifle. MP7 and Vector = Submachinegun or machinepistol, not rifle.

 

The WA system is just bad, period.

 

No, it really isn't... 

[renegadecow]

 

GBBR = Gas BlowBack Rifle. MP7 and Vector = Submachinegun or machinepistol, not rifle.

 

 

No, it really isn't... 

Uh, yeah. I should tell you while it's early so as not to waste any more of your time; that guy does not go well with reason. If you express opinions contrary to his own he's likely to start calling you a mall ninja and a liar.

[Finbarqs]

Viper's have been super reliable. They had a test where they fired up to 50K rounds before they had issues, using CO2!!!!!

 

And I'm questioning if Inokatsu REALLY did use 7075 on their 2009 series... I'll know soon...

[cavapanther]

The only truly reliable and test GBBR I've had so far is the KWA MP7.  I put thousands of rounds through it and never had any serious failures.  All BBs feed, non crushed, no mag blow outs, no broken internals, nothing.

 

For the short time I had my KJW and KWA M4s, I also had not a single issue. But I've only put a few rounds through those.

 

Every WA based platform though, I rarely see going through more than a few mags without some major failure.

 

The WA system is just bad, period.

 

I have the KWA Kriss now, and I think it will work well.  Other than a sticky bolt, no mechancial failures so far.

 

 

 

GBBR = Gas BlowBack Rifle. MP7 and Vector = Submachinegun or machinepistol, not rifle.

 

 

No, it really isn't... 

 

 

Uh, yeah. I should tell you while it's early so as not to waste any more of your time; that guy does not go well with reason. If you express opinions contrary to his own he's likely to start calling you a mall ninja and a liar.

 

I knew someone would come here and tell everyone a WE or KWA is a better gun, but the fact that I already own 20 prowin mags from my last woc, it's just not a matter of WA vs WE. I'm about to order one of the 2011 vipers and see how things go. I'm still not completely satisfy with the lower receiver. I sent an email to viper last couple of days but they haven't reply so guess it's still the holidays. Hopfully I will be able to get one from viper, but if they can't make me a Colt lower for any reasons, can I still use a Prime?

[kagami]

Or can I put all viper's internal in a prime's upper and lower receiver set?

 

buy from a taiwanese retailer and it will have colt trades. bbdragon.com.tw is a good guy to deal with.

 

as for whether or not the Ino is 7075, heres a whole lot of reading for you: http://www.gasguns.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9857&hilit=viper+inokatsu&sid=fce3a29e328135a2c00cdc90fc147a70

 

also no, the Viper is better finished than the Inokatsu which has some nasty forge errors resulting in pretty disappointing areas such as the magwell fence. The viper 2011 is the best for your money if you want realism and reliability.

 

edit: heres the comparison thread. I have seen my friends Inokatsu and even when I had gone to Japan to see one fresh in the box and handled it, I saw these same imperfections.

 

http://www.gasguns.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9308&hilit=venom22#p68353

[Finbarqs]

I've been active on those forums, and I HAVE a 2012 viper.Those receivers that venom22 is showing is actually "B-Grade" that Red Wolf and a lot of others are selling. Inokatsu is a scam, but at least they churned out some decent rifles (externally) albeit with internal issues. (hop-up, bolt catch sometimes not catching-- for me it's catching 85-95% of the time, but i've done the real upper receiver mod)

 

The thing that is changed on the 2012 viper is the brass deflector. 

 

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/206737-vipertech-2012-colt-ar15-series-mk18-mod-0/

 

those are my impressions along with MY pics. 2009 is different than 2011's. I have both, and their receivers are not compatible. Viper's finish are really 'sparkly' i guess, and that's mainly because I think they're still using 2008 design from ino, albeit with Viper modifications. Hence, their hop up only fits viper bolts, not standard WA sized bolts.

 

Besides, it'll only lock back on EB mags too, without modification.

 

I owned all 3: viper 2012, ino 2009, ino 2011. I'm not just going off of people's opinion, but rather my own. I'll say, I think Ino has better externals than vipers (finish,accurate length selector tail, compatibility, and I prefer the trades on ino's) regardless of 2009 or 2011. But viper has better internals (i'd say they're probably on par with KJW as far as reliability goes, and I like the resistance of viper's selector compared to Ino's) if you don't care about it full stroking, mag compatibility, and the 'shiny' finish.

 

Anyways, they're both expensive, and until I get my actual Colt AR, I'll do a comparison. Right now, from the pictures, neither viper nor inokatsu has replicated the rollmark engravings properly. This becomes subjective.

[icolater]

Stick with your woc if your happy with it, they are great guns if you know how to look after them, I have two and love them both, I replaced the reciever on my m7a1 variant with a g&p magpul reciever as well as a cnc trigger and other bits and bobs and it looks slick. If parts break there are tons of options available as its been around for years, so IMO you should treet your self to a new reciever and Keep your woc because they ROCK!!