mwaggs_jd Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 The new gear box design for the Chinese Type 97, is a good example of innovation coming out of China. As for reliability, CA was held in similar regard not long ago, ICS is still though to be hit and miss. The Chinese seem to be fixing problems in earlier version at a very fast pace. I'm pretty impressed so far. Link to post Share on other sites
Carrion Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 stealth bomber. whilst i accept what you say about addons i totaly disagree wbout what your saying about the product line. to retool a factory that totaly costs more than you think. with addons for tm. 90% of addons and oparts are from outside makers. tm make magazines, scope mounts and a tracer unit and thats pretty much it realy. also for thiose dissing the chinese manufactuings sector. hate to tell you this but they work to the same ISO 9000 codes as we do and all the other ISO codes (*becasue they have to to sell anything for a reasonable price) also alot of there graduate level engineers arnt educated in china. they are sent to the west to learn things like design, manufacturing and all the other techy details involved in making stuff. i know. at mmu 30% of the BSc mech eng course is chinese. 50 percent of the BEng mech eng course is chinese. 35 % of the electrical engineering bsc is chinese. at manchester uni (which is a "higher" uni in terms of positioning) almsot half of all techy students are chinese. and smart people happen everywhere. not just in the uk and the US. Link to post Share on other sites
Brett230SX Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 With the Chinese there's good and bad. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think this would be more accurate: With Chinese there's great and terrible. My Echo1 has been fantastic, but there are so many other's that are sheer garbage. Lawofthirds, I do feel dirty.... I like it! Industrial Espianage takes place in a whole lot more places than just China! Don't beleive it doesn't happen right in the US of A or Europe or anywhere else. It just seems like in China they usually get away with it! Link to post Share on other sites
Carrion Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 law of 3rds. you dont know much then do you. china does not recognise tradmark and copy right (niether does turky and russia) as such they are free to do what they like with it. industrial espionage occurs every day designs are coppied stolen modified and then sold on as a new product by other people Link to post Share on other sites
Jack Bauer Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 As far as I'm concerned, clones are a good thing in moderation. Their role is for those of us who know our stuff on a budget to have a model we want and don't own. I agree that for newcomers, they're not the best option but as rentals, backups, or occasional use guns they're great if you're ready to swap out the battery as soon as you can. The fact most clones, with the addition of aftermarket mag and battery are still cheaper by a large margin than a TM which might not even have a hicap with it, and come with a sling in many cases, means that as hire guns, they're very much what they are: Expendable and easy to use. I myself am rather pleased with my CYMA 028: It didn't need the tightbore and new hop, but with it, it's got a much better accuracy and now shoots about 290-300 as opposed to 280-290. Besides, I was born in Paisley. Why would I pay £250 for a TM S-System when I can spend £180 on a clone one and get some extra gubbins at the same time? Let's just enjoy the clone wars while it lasts and keep our higher-quality stuff at the ready. (Also: We're in ur base industrial espionagin' ur products!) Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 stealth bomber. whilst i accept what you say about addons i totaly disagree wbout what your saying about the product line. to retool a factory that totaly costs more than you think. with addons for tm. 90% of addons and oparts are from outside makers. tm make magazines, scope mounts and a tracer unit and thats pretty much it realy. also for thiose dissing the chinese manufactuings sector. I see chinese companies making guns and, ummm, that's about it aside from the odd really terrible M203 and a few scopes. I see companies such as G&P, Guarder and Hurricane who make everything from guns to sling swivels. I think it's fair to suggest that chinese companies aren't supplying the same diversity of products that existing companies do. hate to tell you this but they work to the same ISO 9000 codes as we do and all the other ISO codes (*becasue they have to to sell anything for a reasonable price) Nonsense. If that were the case then, quite simply, you wouldn't have the problems you get with guns such as the Warrior 1. also alot of there graduate level engineers arnt educated in china. they are sent to the west to learn things like design, manufacturing and all the other techy details involved in making stuff. i know. at mmu 30% of the BSc mech eng course is chinese. 50 percent of the BEng mech eng course is chinese. 35 % of the electrical engineering bsc is chinese. at manchester uni (which is a "higher" uni in terms of positioning) almsot half of all techy students are chinese. and smart people happen everywhere. not just in the uk and the US. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I also know that a lot of colleges and Uni's get a helluva lot of money from asian and african sponsors. To become a nigerian petrochemical engineer for BP, all you had to do was attend the lectures for a year at my college. The ability to communicate in English got you extra credits. Link to post Share on other sites
poorieuser Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Who here started out with a clone gun? I started out with a UTG MP5, a rebranded clone at that, it shot beautifully. Fits most of the after market parts I've bought for it. Shoots right around 1joule with a little bit of work. But think about it. With the money that was saved buying a clone gun I had enough left to have the spring, bearings, and Barrel upgraded by a professional. I still had enough money left over to buy a Lighted Handgrip and new sling. All that for less than a stock TM. I think it's a perfect idea for FNG's, noobs, whatever you call the new guys. And as for the "I'd rather open a cheaper gearbox than a more expensive one" argument think about it. I open the gearbox of a $70 gun. I break a $10 dollar part. Now the gun costs me $80. The same thing happens with a TM the gun has cost me $260. I've put close to 10,000 rounds through my UTG MP5. I'm the third owner of the gun and it's still going strong. I use it all the time because it's much more reliable then my ICS M4 is and it's a helluva lot cheaper too. Link to post Share on other sites
Catman Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 [...] I started out with a UTG MP5 [...] I'm the third owner of the gun and it's still going strong [...] Sorry to pick your post apart a bit here but you bought your first gun 3rd hand? So you probably have no idea what the two previous owners ever did inside the gearbox, if at all. Link to post Share on other sites
poorieuser Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 The two previous owners are on my team. They did nothing to the gearbox. Link to post Share on other sites
z pie man Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 if any thing i think that the chinese clones send out a big message to the other brands "we know you can sell them to us for cheaper so cut your costs or risk going bust" Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted March 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 There is so much wrong with that statement, I hardly know where to begin. Let's try pointing out that TM have research and development costs to recoup. They also have to provide better working conditions than a sweatshop twenty miles outside Beijing. Link to post Share on other sites
Tuulos Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 As FarEast (if I remember correctly) told us, the prices in Japan are quite a bit lower (for Japanese manufacturers) than outside of Japan. Ah, I found the topic. http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...topic=99744&hl= (Sorry, using fast reply) Link to post Share on other sites
kerberos_ Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 So... Recommend that noobs buy clones? Well it totally depends of course. Link to post Share on other sites
iloveics Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 steathbomber: you mentioned that we are giving our money to chinese companies, and not tm etc. if the chinese companies can offer a similar quality product, why should we (the consumer) buy a more expensive one? nothing wrong with some healthy competition, it will drive prices down, quality up and technology up. basic economics. Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted March 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 "Hey, you know that DVD you were going to buy from HMV? I bought it the other day. Don't pay HMV £20. Give me £10 and I'll run you off a copy." Get the point? Link to post Share on other sites
Chris North Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Is it me or did an almost exact argument, right down to Stealthbomber and his "plastic dog turds", take place at least once before? Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted March 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Yes, it did. I was trying to discuss a different point, but people won't let economics lie. Link to post Share on other sites
iloveics Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 if it does the job...... and dont say clones dont shoot as hard or accurate etc.] and some cyma ak47's have outlived marui's yes SOME, most marui's will last years. i do think that clones are a good thing, not only for skirmishing, but if you really like a certain gun but a decent one is way to expensive, buy a clone. and if your a collector, or a wallhanger. saying that i used to skirmish with a utg ak, and it was alrite. Link to post Share on other sites
hardboiledcop Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 "Hey, you know that DVD you were going to buy from HMV? I bought it the other day. Don't pay HMV £20. Give me £10 and I'll run you off a copy." Get the point? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> exactly. Quite how you think people buying Chinese products will affect the pricing of Japanese products other than making them higher is quite baffling to me. As we all know , Japanese companies cater for Japanese consumers, HK companies import these guns and have to add a percentage of profit, they are entirely separate markets. I do not buy any clone weapons, for the simple fact that I appreciate the effort and research required by pioneering companies to make the guns we use. I do not appreciate cheap chinese knock-offs and I do not wish to aid the companies which build them in any way shape or form. Link to post Share on other sites
[-=O=-]^{Woozie} Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Well, it is up to the Newcomer him/herself at the end of the day to decide to buy a Clone or not. I have been thou that stage not long ago in fact, I have joined this sport for less then a year, and I did choose a Clone for my starter, since it is cheaper. But if I have another choose I would go and buy a TM becoz they have better QC.... It is really a personal reference. As I said, At the end of the Day, it is the Newcomer's decidion... Woozie Link to post Share on other sites
iloveics Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 ok then, if 2 car companies bought out a new car, with identical handling, acceleration, horsepower. etc but one was £2000 cheaper. which would you get? Link to post Share on other sites
Sledge Posted March 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Which brings us back to my actual point: clones aren't ideal beginner guns. Link to post Share on other sites
Carrion Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 stealth. evidently you know very very little about the iso processes. as such there is no point in trying to deliver a reasoned responce as it will fall on deaf ears. suffice to say you cant just say oh im iso XXXXX certified without a ISO certified certification office saying you are and then there are anual inpections to ensure conformity. i know what work the chinese graduates here are doing. as im doing the same course, you college may have offered a micky mouse qualification to a set group but dont tar ever other eduicational establishment with the same brush. Link to post Share on other sites
iloveics Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 sledge: i agree with that, but can you see the attraction, cheaper, with battery , high cap etc Link to post Share on other sites
hardboiledcop Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 ok then, if 2 car companies bought out a new car, with identical handling, acceleration, horsepower. etc but one was £2000 cheaper. which would you get? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wouldn't buy a Kia that's for sure, no matter how economical they may be, they're souless. Link to post Share on other sites
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