Send in the clones. But not for noobs.

[Sledge]

It's been quite a time in airsoft recently. In the space of maybe a year or so, companies like CYMA have gone from being the utter dregs, to the new darlings of airsoft. Starting with the CYMAs CM0-27 (MP5), these cheap Chinese companies have come out of seemingly nowhere to offer cheap copies of existing "proper" manufacturers guns, and to start moving into ignored models. The creation of cheap XM8s, SCARs and MP40s has opened up the possibility of owning a gun that would prerviously have needed you to invest two or three times the cost of a regular gun, and still not necessarily end up with something as good.

 

So, it's all sunshine and roses with cheap airsoft? Well, not quite. Increasingly, people are pushing beginners/newbies towards these guns. Now, I can understand the logic here. For the cost of a TM AK, you can buy a decent clone, with a battery and charger, and still have money left over for spare mags, batteries, sling, etc. Thing is, every single one of these recommendations comes with a caveat along the lines of "It's just as good as the TM if you open up the geabox and lube it a bit. Oh, and you should probably replace the hop up, and maybe the barrel."

 

Guys, the whole point of recommending a gun for a newbie is for them to have something bulletproof. Something they take out of the box, charge the battery/gas the magazine/work the bolt and off they go. A beginner gun shouldn't need a bunch of work done to get it up to scratch. Think of it like learning to drive. You don't want to learn in a car that has things wrong with it. You want to learn in something in good condition, so you can focus on actually driving without having to deal with the car always pulling to the left in third gear, and the petrol gauge needing a tap every so often.

 

This isn't to say I'm against cheap guns. Far from it. I think they are a great way for people to get cheap guns for projects, or to learn on, or simply to own a model you're interested in but know you won't use that often. They're brilliant. But not for newbies.

 

[Catman]

I agree. If you're new to Airsoft love what you've experienced and want to buy your first AEG you're not going to have the technical competency to strip down an AEG and it's gearbox - steer away from the clones unless you have a really nice friend who knows their stuff and will take the time to sort it out.

 

 

 

And in pure Sledge fashion....

 

 

[Stealthbomber]

Ever noticed how a photocopy isn't quite as sharp as the original?

 

Cloned guns are "thereabouts" but not quite "there" IMO.

I bet most people who own cloned guns wonder why they get random misfeeds or the odd shot that doesn't go where it's supposed to.

I wonder if it ever occurs to them that it might not be happening if they bought a more expensive gun?

 

My biggest beef with chinese guns isn't the guns themselves though. It's the ethics behind them.

For 10 years the best the chinese could design for themselves were springers and LPEGs with plastic gearboxes and lead weights inside which shot at 100fps.

Now they're copying TM and are getting decent results.

 

Big problem is, if we give all our money to the chinese and TM, ICS, CA, G&P and Star don't have the cash to develop new models, can we expect the chinese to?

We've already seen that, left to themselves, they can't design anything worth buying.

TM aren't going to carry on building new guns for Cyma to copy and sell for half the price indefinately.

 

This is the part where somebody usually pipes up to say "Ah, but TM only really care about the Japanese market!"

SO BLOODY WHAT?!

Just cos TM only ever care about the Jap market, they've still spent the last 15 years raking in cash from guns sold all over the world, whether they care about that market or not.

With 50%, maybe, of their profits gone they're going to start to wonder about what's going on.

[happy.al]

I'm not so sure, the clones work good enought out of teh box to go to a skirmish and play, then later on, as I'm sure everyone does, want to upgrade they can dive into the mech box and play around without the fear of wreching a £200 gun.

 

What I would say is that there are always going to be good clones and bad clones, the later cheise clone seem to be getting better all the time. I would have no worries about suggesting a clone over a TM to a newcomer.

 

Also I think that the chinese are starting to create new ideas, look at the MP40, and the remoured MG34, no other company make good versions of these guns. I would say in the development stakes that puts them ahead of ICS, CA, G&P etc.

[dannyboy]

Meh, I've owned a fair few AEG's, clone and not, and I'm still ###### useless with gearboxes. I'd rather, for a serious AEG, have something that has a good chance of not being a lemon, or have shoddy wiring etc. From firing a few, yes, the clones are good. However, having said that, the internals scare me moreso than TM or similar "High class" AEG's

[kerberos_]

Price doesn't equate to quality all the time.

 

Durability of the clone guns are the only issue.

 

Tokyo Marui gun's are not exempt from failure. The line "TM's are bulletproof" is not true and rather misconceiving.

 

The last CQB game I was at, two guys had fairly new TM guns and they had problems that day with them.

 

We (the guys who run our site) were discussing whether or not to get clones for hires and I said "no, I'd always go with TM's". But, after a wee think, hire guns are going to get knocked around and the parts are TM compatible anyway.

 

If you look after your gun, then it should last just as long. These things are expensive TOYS - they aren't going to last forever.

[Carrion]

i did a price comparision and it works out that for the same price as a tm or CA gun you can get a clone and mags etc and upgrade it and have the internals looked at by a retailer for the same price.

 

 

also dont forget when we started we had to pay 2-300 for start up costs. now you dont, you pay 1-200 which brings mnore people into the hobby as there is less of a barrier to entry.

 

 

and the number of high cost guns which i have seen (gnp, CA, star, ) fail in rather nasty ways goes beyond belife. and the number of high cost guns i own which arnt that good when you look at how much i paid for them.

 

personaly i find a clone is a good starting point which can be built on slowly to improve power, accuracy etc and it appears that the clone makers are thinking about us not the jap market (ive wanted a shell ejecting spring shotgun for years and now there is one couretsy fo another clone maker)

 

also ask yourself this. how can a gun which has the same basic material costs cost so much less when clones compared to what tM are charging,

 

£45 from rsov for a agm m14 and thats got to include 2 lots of profit. (his and the makers) minimum plus the shipping to rsov. now how much are tm m14s in japan? (thats a question btw so we can comapre.)

[Delfi]

Hi All,

 

Personally I'm a big fan of Jing Gong products but I broadly agree with what has been said. Without a shadow of a doubt my favourite toys are expensive originals be they TM, CA or KA ... these are the ones that I will skirmish with 99% of the time. Skirmishing to me is valuable 'chill time' and I don't need the grief of things failing. It ruins the whole experience. Even the feeling that it might happen is enough to spoil things.

 

SB is right in terms of the economics here too ... these things are rip offs ... if they were made anywhere other than China copyright laws would shut the factories down. Even the supplied manuals are copies ... the gears in the gear box are clearly casts of the real thing (they're actually marked CA!!!!). The manuals are the original TM ones with Chinese photocopied over the top of the Japanese.

 

Having said this, there is another aspect to airsofting for me that isn't about skirmishing or collecting. I like to tinker around with my toys and I'm loathe to do that with my expensive and trusted guns. Cheap clones really do come into their own in this respect. As has been pointed out they rarely work perfectly and do need a degree of modification and that's just great for learning about how to fix the real thing if and when stuff does go wrong. It's also great fun and very satisfying figuring out why things don't work and what to do to fix the problems.

 

Nobody has mentioned associated spare parts such as magazines yet and they're worth some consideration. One thing I really like about my JG AK hi-cap mags are that they come with a key to wind them up ... it's faster and less of an embuggerance to use than the traditional wheel. They work fine in the original guns too.

 

Just my 2p ....

 

D

[Carrion]

in my well r8 the gears were clones of the systema steel ones (and cheaked with a magnet)

[Catman]

For veteran airsofters these clones are a godsend, we know our stuff, we know places to buy new parts and we generally know how to take a gearbox apart without freaking out.

 

But they're not ideal for newbies - and that's the whole point of this thread. Clone guns need work out of the box, whereas a TM (for example) work straight out of the box.

 

As for learning on a clone; a newbie takes it apart and finds no grease in the gearbox and/or badly shimmed gears, bad air compression from the piston etc etc then they're going to base their benchmark of what a gearbox should be like on that.

[kerberos_]

Ok, if someone I knew was starting off and they wanted an MP5K, AK47/74 or a G36C, I'd run over the possible issues with the chinese made versions but I certainly wouldn't say "no, dont get one".

 

A guy I know who has just started wanted an MP5. I ran over the potential issues and that "the community will tel you that TM is more reliable..."

 

As he was starting off, I suggested the clone one (JG?) but they didn't have it in the shop. He really wanted an MP5 so he took the TM one and paid the £50 or so extra.

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

[kerberos_]

For veteran airsofters these clones are a godsend, we know our stuff, we know places to buy new parts and we generally know how to take a gearbox apart without freaking out.

 

But they're not ideal for newbies - and that's the whole point of this thread.  Clone guns need work out of the box, whereas a TM (for example) work straight out of the box.

 

As for learning on a clone; a newbie takes it apart and finds no grease in the gearbox and/or badly shimmed gears, bad air compression from the piston etc etc then they're going to base their benchmark of what a gearbox should be like on that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Of course you have very valid points, but I think people (for whatever reason) underestimate some 'people new to airsoft' (I hate using the term 'noob' - sounds rather degrading, sorry).

 

Generally, new people know or skirmish somewhere with experienced people and of course use forums like this. It isn't like the information is inaccessible nor is the help (I hope).

 

Perhaps those been around for a while are living on what they were told or learned - times have changed, friends!

 

 

*Last week I received my first 'clone' - Galaxy MP5K PDW

*Issues: Battery is ######

 

What other issues would a new person find that I haven't with this gun?

Likewise, what issues would they encounter that were totally 'off'?

 

 

I am not saying clones are perfect, but even expensive/brand names have their issues.

[casey_cole]

On the issue of clone internals:

 

It's not just clones who get it wrong - check the G&G L85, the STAR M14 SOPMOD, the G&G SR-25 - they all have near clone grade internals, but are from "high end" companies (some work fine obviously though).

 

CC

[Stealthbomber]

I don't really understand the logic behind the idea of "I'd rather take a £70 gun apart instead of a £250 gun"

Honestly, how does that work?

 

You're going to take the gearbox to bits and then, if you lose something or break it, you're going to sweep the whole lot into the bin?

If you are, can you send it to me instead? I'll even pay the postage.

 

Meanwhile, the alternative is that you take a £70 gun apart, lose a bit and have to pay £10 for a replacement. By comparison, if you have a £250 gun which you lose a part of, ummm, it'll still cost you £10 for the same bit.

What's the difference?

[tome]

Big problem is, if we give all our money to the chinese and TM, ICS, CA, G&P and Star don't have the cash to develop new models, can we expect the chinese to?

We've already seen that, left to themselves, they can't design anything worth buying.

TM aren't going to carry on building new guns for Cyma to copy and sell for half the price indefinately.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're saying that the Chinese will never design anything worth buying and can only copy?

 

Somehow I don't think that's correct. Realistically, of the list of manufacturer up there TM is the only true innovator. CA, ICS, G&P started off cloning TM AEGs and continue to sell those clones today. They have since grown up as companies and started to make designs of their own.

 

What makes you think that the Chinese clone companies won't invest in R&D, when they have the money, in the pattern that has gone before for the companies you listed above.

 

Imitation -> refinement -> Innovation. Everyone has to start somewhere......

[Catman]

[...]Generally, new people know or skirmish somewhere with experienced people and of course use forums like this.  It isn't like the information is inaccessible nor is the help (I hope).[...]

 

I wouldn't recommend a clone to anyone who didn't attend my skirmish site because then I couldn't fix it for them As I said earlier:

 

[...]steer away from the clones unless you have a really nice friend who knows their stuff and will take the time to sort it out.[...]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

[...]I hate using the term 'noob' - sounds rather degrading, sorry[...]

No worries it is; "n00b" is the kind of person who racks up multiple -1s with a few posts. "Newbie" is just new person

 

 

Oh and I wouldn't class G&G as one of the upper tier AEG makers even if they want to price themselves as such I'd put 'em about mid-way in the list. At the end of the day: TM are the benchmark.

[AirForcePR09]

CA has done its own R&D, how do you think the M249, and CA25, came about. Even the SCAR, they all use different GB's than standard rifles.

[AirForcePR09]

double, damn school comp

[Stealthbomber]

You're saying that the Chinese will never design anything worth buying and can only copy?

 

Somehow I don't think that's correct. Realistically, of the list of manufacturer up there TM is the only true innovator. CA, ICS, G&P started off cloning TM AEGs and continue to sell those clones today. They have since grown up as companies and started to make designs of their own.

 

What makes you think that the Chinese clone companies won't invest in R&D, when they have the money, in the pattern that has gone before for the companies you listed above.

 

Imitation -> refinement -> Innovation. Everyone has to start somewhere......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like I already said, we've had 10 years of chinese LPEGs and they were all junk. What makes you think that they now have designers any more capable than the ones who created those?

 

It's true that we might get one or two guns from China that aren't available elsewhere. The internals that created the AUG could easily be grafted into the shell of an F2000. No Japanese or Taiwanese manufacture has done this yet but maybe a Chinese one will. Equally, no high-end manufacturer has produced a SCAR yet but a chinese one has.

None of that took much of a leap of engineering though, did it?

What's more, I'd be very surprised if a chinese F2000 manufacturer actually pursues the project by building a grenade pod, shotgun pod or alternative optics for the gun.

It's the "plastic dog turd" mentality at work. They like to see conveyor belts churning out stuff for sale. They don't have the project loyalty to follow a product through with accesories and add-ons.

Why tie up a production line with items that will only ever be sold to a subdivision of the people you've already sold an item to when, instead, you could be making an entirely new product that might achieve even higher sales?

 

On that note, the chinese factories might simply decide that there's more money in making car dashboards or novelty telephones instead.

Be a bit of a blow if TM, CA and ICS all scaled back production in reaction to the chinese guns and then all the chinese guns went away wouldn't it?

 

Finally, take a look through the accesories section of a site like WGC sometime and marvel at the range of items available to us. Stuff like sector-sights for M203s and the huge variety of optics for guns.

The chinese tend to go for mass-market appeal. They'd rather sell 100 cheap & nasty SCARs for $70 rather than half a dozen M203 sector sights for $250 each.

If you rely on the chinese to supply airsoft equipment we will soon suffer a reduction of quality AND variety of equipment.

 

Finally, I honestly can't think of a single item I own which is chinese and of noteworthy quality.

I honestly doubt they will ever produce any such item, airsoft or otherwise.

[pathfinder909]

I disagree entirely with a lot that has been said in this topic.

Clones guns aren't just a little footbridge to get to TM or CA, at least not for me ( and I know I represent a good portion of airsoft players )

As these guns are advancing, they are becoming increasingly fantastic weapons for the price. They are not just cheap throwaway scrap parts , these are perfectly skirmishing weapons. The new JG guns are sweet.

So maybe some people should actually buy some good ones and take them to the field.

They are nice.

[Catman]

I disagree entirely with a lot that has been said in this topic.

Clones guns aren't just a little footbridge to get to TM or CA, at least not  for me ( and I know I represent a good portion of airsoft players )

As these guns are advancing, they are becoming increasingly fantastic weapons for the price. They are not just cheap throwaway scrap parts , these are perfectly skirmishing weapons. The new JG guns are sweet.

So maybe some people should actually buy some good ones and take them to the field.

They are nice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you're missing the point, we're saying while these guns are great they're not the most ideal thing for new airsofters to start with.

 

Well I've played with a JG G36C and a JG AUG and found them to be rather impressive. I even have a JG G36C of my own arriving soon. They are however meant to be 350fps out of the box, I chrono'd the G36C at 308 and the AUG at 330. When my own JG G36C arrives I'll be stripping down the gearbox first thing.

 

350fps is too hot for a lot of UK skirmish sites so they'll have to definately be chrono'd before play and if over the 328fps limit they'll have to have their springs changed - not fun to do you're a gearbox-shy newbie. Also a bit of a kick in the teeth if you show up to play with your brand spanking new chinese clone only to find its shooting too hot to play.

[Stealthbomber]

Try buying a VSR10 from Tokyo Marui and an L96 from Warrior and see how they compare.

For every outstandingly good chinese gun, I bet I can name you a terrible one. G36c is good? What about the G36k?

 

With the Chinese there's good and bad. With TM the vast majority are good.

[tome]

Like I already said, we've had 10 years of chinese LPEGs and they were all junk. What makes you think that they now have designers any more capable than the ones who created those?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Designer (or engineers rather) will always be limited by the budget that they have to make something with. Garbage materials + garbage machinery = Garbage product.

 

I'm sure that they have better engineers now, or even the same engineers that had great ideas but not the budget to spread their wings.

 

To be honest, I find your generalisation of Chinese airsoft engineers as inept to be quite offensive.

[lawofthirds]

I won't buy a clone.

 

A clone is a clear violation of trademarking and copyrighting and is the direct result of essentially industrial espiange and I will not have anything to do with it. Buying a clone gun should make you feel dirty.

 

Also, look at real sword's products. They're high quality externals, and a proprietary slim mechbox that looks quite nice from all initial reviews. There's proof that chinese engineers can whip out very good products if there's market incentive to do so, same as anywhere else.

 

The mechbox on cheap clones isn't the only consideration. I've seen more broken clone guns after less use than TM. They feel cheap and generally are cheaply made, with tabs that break, screws that strip and a plethora of other problems. I landed full weight at a dead run on my G36C TM this last saturday on rock hard earth. Not a scratch on it. Try that with a clone and you'll have a variety of plastic debris on the ground under you.

[kerberos_]

"10 years..."

 

Every thought that now they see a market, a niche for what is a growing sport/hobby/past time and decide it's now worth looking into it? Investing in better products?

 

Like most things in the world, the bigger the market, the more competition for price and product.

 

I agree, to write 'chinese' made proucts off just because of previous, could be construed as racist - but I don't buy that. I have my own view what a racist is. But that's another topic.