Webbing or Vest

[Noart]

I started my hobby with a SAAV. Didn't like it at all and got a PLCE, loved it to bits! I've tried playing with chestrigs but it hurt my back so i got myself a 6sh92 rig, and it's awesome when it comes to comfort! It also contains a backpack part so i don't need tons of pouches a'la americana style.

[loki7491]

it truely is horses for courses.

 

i have used a mixtue of webbing, vest and plate carriers on a variety of blank firing exercises, live firing exercises and on a multitude of operational tours.

 

PLCE WEBBING

 

webbing is convienient as it allows you to carry the essentials. you should be able to survive from your webbing in reasonable comfort for 48 hours. ammo, water, rations, first-aid kit, survival kit, any other luxeries you can cram in there.

 

the downside to webbingi s you need to take care to set it up right and customise it to your needs. for myself there was always the potential to fill the pouches just cos they are there, and make the webbing heavier than it needs to be - not a good thing, either in the real world or a day airsofting! the clips on the standard PLCE pouches drive me insane! and sitting comfortably in a vehicle with webbing is nearly impossible.

 

ASSAULT VEST

 

much better for vehicles and with a fixed number of pouches there is less risk of carrying extra rubbish just for the sake of it! the two larger map pockets are a godsend for commanders and navigators as it gives easier access to maps and note books

 

the ammo pouches and style of fastening clip are horrificly poor - the designer of those needs to be put before a firing squad!. not as dificult to go prone as you may think, i quite like it for the prone position as it helps short asses like me to build a more stable fire position and take some weight off your elbows.

 

OSPREY

 

the need for enhanced body armour on ops out weighs all other factors, the molle system is great, and on the second generation of pouches, everything sits snug and secure.

 

yes it is heavy and cumbersome, but there are very few situations i can think of where i would willingly deploy without it. warfare has changed now we are in afghan (and when we were in iraq) so you only really carried bullets and water on your "webbing" and everything else in patrol packs.

 

 

that is arun down of real world stuff, now lets get back to the job in hand.

 

best rig FOR AIRSOFTING

 

i would suggest that even on a weekend game you are not going to be all out all weekend, the ones i have attended stop for darkness for safety sake, although smaller games are played in a more controllled area.

 

so, you only need to carry

 

mags

maybe a spare battery

 

if you wanna push the boat out

spare ammo

radio

pyro

water

 

i would suggest molle rig, set up to you choosing or an older style chest rig with VELCRO flaps.

 

the velcro makes mag changes so much faster, with less chance of dropping/losing mags during the fire fight.

 

(i appreciate there are those who go for a particular look or load out - but this is what is needed for airsofting with relative comfort and minimum claggage)

 

as for the whole velcro argument, i am having a tailor made set of webbing done by the tailoress on camp - all pouches are having velcro fasteners. easier to get into with gloves on, more secure than brittle plastic clips.

 

if i am close enough to the enemy for them to hear my velcro, then it is too late for them, as i am changing mag ready for the final assault of the position! - i am hardly gonna be going for my brew kit during a fire fight - although i do like the idea of the typical stiff upper lip stopping for a cup of tea mid battle.

 

i welcome any comments or questions - to argue or clarify.

 

bill

[Noart]

"and sitting comfortably in a vehicle with webbing is nearly impossible."

 

Depends on how you have set up your pouches. I left my back free on my PLCE and i was the designated driver on a 24h game, it worked better than i could imagine.

[loki7491]

"and sitting comfortably in a vehicle with webbing is nearly impossible."

 

Depends on how you have set up your pouches. I left my back free on my PLCE and i was the designated driver on a 24h game, it worked better than i could imagine.

 

 

that is wonderful when you have that choice - i don't get too scared when people are shooting 6mm plastic balls at me, so i could leave half my stuff behind, but i specificly put that in the bit about "the real world" as you would a fudging liability if you left half your kit behind just to sit comfortably in the vehicle.

 

so, with you back free, you had room for what? ammo on left and water on right? i know invited argument, but please try to argue in the same context. if i was a builder and said about a problem i had putting a roof on a house, i wouldn't expect you to come on here and tell me it is easy, you have done it 4 times already, on LEGO houses!

[Punkypink]

You can have the best of both worlds for both vest and webbing, especially in airsoft.

 

An old rig like a Ephod A11/Singaporean SBO is for me the best AR15 Rig by far. It is a vest+ webbing combination where it has a traditional harness but the pouches sit between your waist and the lower part of your rib cage. It keeps your upper body ventilated while still allowing HSLD because its a vest.

 

It features:

- Super heavy construction, we are talking about nylon thats thicker than the canvas for sails.

- Extremely low profile, 2 AR15 mags per mag pouch and doesn't bulge out to bother you going prone. Pouches are velcro.

- Holds 8 AR mags or 12 SMG mags, or 6 AR/9 UZI mags with sidearm

- Generous and large comforter

- Holds 2 Litres of water, 2 grenade pouch 1 small util pouch and a large util pouch to hold whatever else you need.

- Can add utility belt for attaching extra stuff

- Enough for 24hrs worth of stuff in a rig thats 20% smaller than the PLCE.

 

Best of all in Singapore they are $50-60 SGD each ($35USD), new.

 

 

I spent 30 months using this. I absolutely HATED it. Uncomfortable for starters, and the issue ones have velcro attachment flaps rather than buttons or fasteners. It was clunky and universally disliked. In your pics you've managed to get WAY more pouches onto it than I could. I could only ever manage to get 2 mag pouches, 2 grenade pouches, 2 water bottle pouches and 1 utility pack onto mine, and that meant that when i went prone i was mostly lying on top of the mag pouches.

[signal319]

if i am close enough to the enemy for them to hear my velcro, then it is too late for them, as i am changing mag ready for the final assault of the position! - i am hardly gonna be going for my brew kit during a fire fight - although i do like the idea of the typical stiff upper lip stopping for a cup of tea mid battle.

 

Pretty good argument, to be fair. It's hardly going to be the case that you will be changing magazine BEFORE the enemy know you're even there. And yes, it is much easier to operate velcro when using gloves. A change of magazine before the final assault will instill some fear

 

Although I had the worst instance of a final assault when I was doing section battle drills up at Catterick three weeks ago. I was the sect cdr, and Charlie Fire Team had gone left flanking, and I had spied what looked like the perfect bit of dead ground right in front of the enemy position for me to charge up into the enemy. What I didn't realise was that it was a load of reeds, and so I stood up, started screaming and charging forward (as you do) and promptly sank up to my nipples in water

 

The DS were quite impressed at my epic fail.

[loki7491]

Although I had the worst instance of a final assault when I was doing section battle drills up at Catterick three weeks ago. I was the sect cdr, and Charlie Fire Team had gone left flanking, and I had spied what looked like the perfect bit of dead ground right in front of the enemy position for me to charge up into the enemy. What I didn't realise was that it was a load of reeds, and so I stood up, started screaming and charging forward (as you do) and promptly sank up to my nipples in water

 

The DS were quite impressed at my epic fail.

 

 

that is horrific when that happens!

 

have you ever been to Lydd and hythe ranges for optag training?

 

section battle drills across the shingle is an absolute nightmare - you are well fudged 2 bounds in, and then you gotta faff about with pouches and clips so you don't leave kit strewn across the area.

 

velcro for the win.

 

there is that new(ish) airbourne webbing where the ammo pouches are velcro. none of it fits me though, hence the tailoress is making me a set to my sizes and with all the pouches velcroed.

 

to be honest, my days of section attacks are dwindling off, but you can never say never!

[signal319]

No, I've only been to STANTA, SENTA and Catterick. Section attacks is about the limit of our training, but we've got FIBUA next weekend, off to Catterick again for my monthly dosage of pain

 

Ouch, section attacks across shingle? owwweeee, I would NOT fancy that!

Once British forces upgrade beyond spanish fly tabs and start using up-to-date equipment, I'll be happy (the holy grail for all soldiers I expect eh?)

 

I'm a mere air cadet, see signature for details of the course that I'm on ...

[loki7491]

ahhhh,

 

didin't read the signature block,

 

i thought you was in the Royal Signals and the numbers were your last three of your army number......

 

i had no idea you was a "space cadet" !!!!!!

 

 

 

looking to go career? or just a bit of fun for the time being?

 

 

bill

[signal319]

Yes, I am looking at a career, in the ... You guessed it, Royal Signals Going for Officer, hence this course. It's like a cadet version of initial officer training. Really good fun, hard work, but brilliant. Want to take a gap year and go to uni first for a bit of all-essential drinking training first

[Punkypink]

Interesting. I spent a year working in the Signal Institute of the Singapore Armed Forces. Was meant to attend a signals course of course but then they decided they needed administrative specs more.

[Seraphim989]

I dont know what kind of setups you guys run, but my uniforms have velcro on them too, and I find all the different bits of velcro tend to stick to one another, especially when putting on the vest. The spanish fly clips are very easy to open. You just pull down on the tab. Dont tell me you cant do that with gloves on. Admittedly, they take longer than velcro to close, but I find its more important to have a fast opening system than a fast closing one.

[Dan_Breen]

I tend to experiment with loadouts regularly and like some of the posters I swap round depending on what I'm doing.

 

If I'm doing Urban, often I'll just take a spring shottie, so will put spare shells and odds and ends into a leg pouch along with an old pattern Brit water bottle for hydration.

Woodland, 58 pattern belt kit with an old canvas alice butt pack instead of the kidney pouches does me fine. Being of the more generous waist line I can get all I need onto it.

For stuff like Town Assault/Pheonix Rising etc - chest rig and patrol type pack carries all I need.

 

I'm going to try using a haversack, (or combat handbag as the missus calls it), and see how that goes. The search for the perfect low drag high capacity rig goes onwards.

[Dan_Breen]

Forgot to add -

I may go back and use one of the Swiss style jackets - they have the pouches built onto them - great idea in theory and fine for airsoft.

[swannie_2006]

I used to have a tactical vest (south african assault vest) but I disliked it for various reasons. As soon as I could afford I switched to MOLLE (CIRAS first, then RRV for mobility and better ventillation). Never regretted it. It allows me to set up all pouches the way I like it, the kind of pouches I need so I don't have to spend hours to figure out what sticks out the least from which pouch.

 

Never used webbing so I can't comment on that one but given that it was the chosen load bearing "style" for many decades I'd say it couldn't be _that_ bad or it would have been swapped for something else many moons ago.

[signal319]

I dont know what kind of setups you guys run, but my uniforms have velcro on them too, and I find all the different bits of velcro tend to stick to one another, especially when putting on the vest. The spanish fly clips are very easy to open. You just pull down on the tab. Dont tell me you cant do that with gloves on. Admittedly, they take longer than velcro to close, but I find its more important to have a fast opening system than a fast closing one.

 

You haven't seen the gloves that we were issued with. No dexterity at all, they're fine for when we're in our harbour areas and for admin time, but for combat - no way.

 

I do see your point though, it's fair do's, I guess I can close my pouches again after the re-org; I throw the empty magazines down my smock anyway so I guess nothing is going to fall out.

[loki7491]

I dont know what kind of setups you guys run, but my uniforms have velcro on them too, and I find all the different bits of velcro tend to stick to one another, especially when putting on the vest. The spanish fly clips are very easy to open. You just pull down on the tab. Dont tell me you cant do that with gloves on. Admittedly, they take longer than velcro to close, but I find its more important to have a fast opening system than a fast closing one.

 

 

none of our uniform has velcro on it, all badges etc are sewn on.

 

our kit uses either quick release buckles or the loop and tab system on standard PLCE webbing. getting kit out is easy enough, securing it again is the issue.

 

all our ammo mags are accounted for and thus reusable, generally we only get 4-6 mags per man - more for a specialised op, you have to stow your emptys in your kit. during a firefight, not only do you have the mag change, you need to re-stow your empty, then secure it before you can move. the clips are fiddley, and take precious extra seconds (usually two handed - which means you do not have control of your rifle) Velcro is considerably swifter. (and generally single handed)

 

the clips are small, so with gloves on, you lose al feeling of what you are doing. any ham fisted fool pumped with adreniline can work velcro flaps.

 

makes re-engaging the enemy easier and swifter.

[signal319]

none of our uniform has velcro on it, all badges etc are sewn on.

 

our kit uses either quick release buckles or the loop and tab system on standard PLCE webbing. getting kit out is easy enough, securing it again is the issue.

 

all our ammo mags are accounted for and thus reusable, generally we only get 4-6 mags per man - more for a specialised op, you have to stow your emptys in your kit. during a firefight, not only do you have the mag change, you need to re-stow your empty, then secure it before you can move. the clips are fiddley, and take precious extra seconds (usually two handed - which means you do not have control of your rifle) Velcro is considerably swifter. (and generally single handed)

 

the clips are small, so with gloves on, you lose al feeling of what you are doing. any ham fisted fool pumped with adreniline can work velcro flaps.

 

makes re-engaging the enemy easier and swifter.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

Just to clarify, the "loop and tab" system for standard PLCE webbing is the spanish fly tab, isn't it? Or am I mixed up? lol

[loki7491]

also worthy of mention.........

 

the british army used to be all about looking the same and looking smart.

 

nowadays, with the lessons learned from iraq and afghan, the guys get more free range on their kit (within reason). for instance, many of the infantry use drop leg dump pouches - 3 years ago that would have landed you in a world of trouble with the boss!

 

culture is changing, due to soldiers dying, any contracts are no longer sent to the cheapest bidder, but to the company that offers the soldiers the highest survivability

 

PLCE was used for it's load carrying, but the army ARE getting rid of it in it's current guise, because of the pouch clips! it is being re-designed and my money is on the velcro system....... watch this space!

 

 

[loki7491]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

Just to clarify, the "loop and tab" system for standard PLCE webbing is the spanish fly tab, isn't it? Or am I mixed up? lol

 

 

could be, never heard it called that before, but not to say that isn't it's proper name.

 

you learn something new everyday!

[Seraphim989]

When I take out a mag it goes in one of the back pockets of my combat smock(amazing piece of kit) or in a dump pouch. It takes too long to shove them back in a pouch, no matter the securing system. The Germans, who also use the spanish fly clips, sometimes have their mags tied to them, so they can just drop the mag and not have to worry about it. Granted, its not ALL of their mags, at least I dont think it is.

[loki7491]

When I take out a mag it goes in one of the back pockets of my combat smock(amazing piece of kit) or in a dump pouch. It takes too long to shove them back in a pouch, no matter the securing system. The Germans, who also use the spanish fly clips, sometimes have their mags tied to them, so they can just drop the mag and not have to worry about it. Granted, its not ALL of their mags, at least I dont think it is.

 

 

that'd be cool......

 

running about with mags dangling off you - you'd look like a kid with mittens sewn to a string through your jacket sleeves!

 

so do you guys bother to do your pouches up again, or continue the assault with them open? seems a bit risky to me.

 

i would not be too happy when i go my mag and see the open and EMPTY pouch!

[Seraphim989]

that'd be cool......

 

running about with mags dangling off you - you'd look like a kid with mittens sewn to a string through your jacket sleeves!

 

so do you guys bother to do your pouches up again, or continue the assault with them open? seems a bit risky to me.

 

i would not be too happy when i go my mag and see the open and EMPTY pouch!

 

Well, the only things I have with the fly clasps are my german pieces of kit and each pouch holds two G36 mags, which I leaved clipped together, so when I reload, I empty the pouch. But on the few occasions Ive used other types of mags I havent had a problem.

[loki7491]

Well, the only things I have with the fly clasps are my german pieces of kit and each pouch holds two G36 mags, which I leaved clipped together, so when I reload, I empty the pouch. But on the few occasions Ive used other types of mags I havent had a problem.

 

are you talking airsoft or in the real world?

 

for airsoft, none of this is an issue as you can take cover behing just about anything and sort your stuff out.

 

when you have 7.62 headed your way, i can offer you every assurance

 

you want into your pouch with no messing about

you want out of your pouch with no messing about

you want whatever is in there to still be there when you next go for it.

 

 

it is a little embarassing getting shot with a bb, it is literally the end of your world if you catch a 7.62!

[Crocodilo]

I use a tactical tailor MAV, so i get the best of both worlds.