Hybrid CO2/Electric NBB system

[Mr. Blue]

So its been a long time coming...

 

MagnumBB started it, I joined the team and a few months back, he left.

 

With so many man hours logged, I decided to keep on working,

 

- At first this started as a hammer and sear engine. The limitations of the m16 trigger made the project not feasible. - It then progressed to a sliding pressure chamber design. Again the trigger pull of the m16 ( under 1/5 of an inch) did not allow the system to function too well.

 

Soon, I found myself in over my head. I had the basis of a great idea and It was frustrating that I could not finish it myself. I later decided bring in others to help me finish. With some help from a few guys ( who will remain nameless) in the classic gun scene, a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer and an industrial designer, the project has becoming closer to grasp and evolved to a Solenoid/Dual chamber driven engine.

 

the electronics control the firing mechanism for the system, while the regulator(s) off the tank controls the input pressure. The separation of the firing/pressure/timing into different components of the engine has allowed me to focus on refining each and then blending them as a whole. ( I know this is vague, I did write a full write-up of the system, but i was advised not publish it just yet, lets just say it is a hybrid derivative of the Asahi WA2000 engine)

 

- All of it drops into a standard V2 gearbox (retains use of aeg hop up, barrel and magazines)

- Max input pressure is 100psi (Air is only used in firing)

- pressure chamber is a fixed constant, ensuring consistent chamber depressurizing (firing).

- electronics controls the pressure chamber flow and the firing mechanism.

 

So why am I telling you all this?

 

I need to know if it is worth continuing the project.

Would you, the select public, be interested in a Hybrid Co2/Electronic system conversion for m16's/m4's.

[Horsem4n]

erm, i didnt expect you to ask yet...

ill send you a pm on classic airsoft.

[Mr. Blue]

I'm asking because the team has recently reached another milestone, but my lingering doubts has had me worried. I figured, why try to figure out if people want it and just ask them directly.

[Horsem4n]

right, i was going to wait until i had a working prototype before garnering public support.

[mcnuggets]

Does it still use gears like in monster's hybrid?

[Horsem4n]

no, heres the premise of the system, which is quite awesome.

 

it uses a electronically controlled solenoid gas valve at its heart. the trigger and other controls are linked to a custom ECU (electronic control unit) that drives the solenoid valve in precisely timed increments so that firing modes, ROF and FPS are completely controllable with programming and theres no trigger lag. if the loading nozzle is designed right, it can be controlled just by the pressure of the gas flowing through it (or be actuated by another solenoid) and use a regular loading nozzle to remain compatible with the normal AEG hop up units.

 

there isn't a lot of info about how they are built being that the only people who build them right now are all in japan and theres videos of them available on youtube (youtube user that builds them regularly). i really want to drum up support for these things because i want to see them on the American and European markets.

 

i pretty much think that this is the ultimate airsoft system for performance. gas powered guns can be made to out perform air powered ones. like sniper rifles or classic guns. add the ability to control ROF and FPS at a key stroke and using modern hop ups makes any gun powered by this engine potentially the best performing gun on any field. but, alas, thats speculation.

[BFOUR]

Any ideas of what price range we are talking about?

Can you let out any more details like how many shots we get, where the co2 is stored. Stuff like that.

[Mr. Blue]

Does it still use gears like in monster's hybrid?

 

Still implies that i am basing my system off his his design. I am not. See Horsem4n's post

 

 

no, heres the premise of the system, which is quite awesome.

 

it uses a electronically controlled solenoid gas valve at its heart. the trigger and other controls are linked to a custom ECU (electronic control unit) that drives the solenoid valve in precisely timed increments so that firing modes, ROF and FPS are completely controllable with programming and theres no trigger lag. if the loading nozzle is designed right, it can be controlled just by the pressure of the gas flowing through it (or be actuated by another solenoid) and use a regular loading nozzle to remain compatible with the normal AEG hop up units.

[...]

i pretty much think that this is the ultimate airsoft system for performance. gas powered guns can be made to out perform air powered ones. like sniper rifles or classic guns. add the ability to control ROF and FPS at a key stroke and using modern hop ups makes any gun powered by this engine potentially the best performing gun on any field. but, alas, thats speculation.

 

Horsem4n has hit the nail on the head. Granted my design for a DMR is semi-only for the sake of reaching the market and avoiding the use of a Micro-controller at this point. A blend of electronics, timing and mechanical features is what powers my current dmr engine.

 

I do have a select fire design in the back burner, but I feel reaching the DMR crowd first is my priority.

 

Any ideas of what price range we are talking about?

Can you let out any more details like how many shots we get, where the co2 is stored. Stuff like that.

 

This will be around the 300-350 price range. Co2 is external based so it depends on your tank. a green gas model could be produced, but the ability to control the co2 pressure is what makes half of this system desirable.

[l96ninja]

This sounds a lot like the system used in the Asahi WA2000. Any resemblance? If so, you may very well be on the brink of something beautiful, as the Asahi is one of the most accurate, consistent sniper rifles you can find (if you're lucky).

[Horsem4n]

yeah, the Asahi W2000 uses this engine, and is semi only, but i'm not sure if Mr Blue derived his design directly from the Asahi. it will still be essentially the same though.

 

the guns will be powered off of an external tank (paintball tank, either HPA or CO2) running gas through a remote line with a regulator. this will give the gun a consistent gas feed for a stable shot to shot FPS output, needed for consistent accuracy.

now, we understand that having the external tank may be a hindrance in most of your eyes, but its a small sacrifice to extend your accuracy ranges (potentially) passed 300 feet in the cheapest way possible. you'll still need a precision barrel and nice hop up parts though, cant forget that. but thats still cheaper than a 1500+ asahi, better than a 900+ gas boltie or trying to find the time and money to build a kokusai crimbuster or MGC 10/22.

 

i only say potentially because, even though you can accomplish this with the Asahi W2000, there's no promise that a replication of the system will work that well until it is seen.

[mcnuggets]

Still implies that i am basing my system off his his design. I am not. See Horsem4n's post

 

I'm glad you aren't going for a gears and gas Rube Goldberg-like contraption like what monster built. I thought his gearbox incorporated the worst of both worlds.

 

How will this gun work? What sort of action are you using?

[Horsem4n]

its just a solenoid driven gas valve. unlike a mechanically driven valve, like most all other airsoft gas guns, an electronic current trips the valve, causing it to open. as a result the gas starts to flow until the flow of electricity is closed off.

[BFOUR]

Whats the electric source and where would it be located?

[Horsem4n]

a normal AEG battery, probably only compatible with 9.6v ones (but i don't know). but since the draw of electricity will be much less than with a normal aeg, a small 9.6v will go a long way. of which can be placed in the normal battery compartment.

[SteevoLS]

I want one. I really, really want one. Would it be possible to make versions for other gearboxes like the V6? I've always dreamed of having a gas-powered Thompson.

 

Is there another forum with a more indepth discussion of this?

[Horsem4n]

yeah, we started a descussion last month or so about these on classicairsoft.org, which triggered my interest and i started designing one. after i found that mr Blue fully intended to release one, i dropped my plans of producing one and im going to share my designs with mr Blue. my designs are central around a fully functional assault rifle or SMG, his are around a DMR.

 

in the link, i posted a diagram of a possible way to make one, but it is a good bit different from my current design.

 

other than that thread, there really isn't any more info on these things outside of japan. and asking a few japanese people, they all told me that the system isn't openly discussed outside of the circles that produce them.

 

if my design works, it should be completely possible to transfer the engine between version 2 and 3 gearboxes, i don't know about it working in other versions as i don't have the dimensions of the cylinder heads. but it could be one part thats different between it going from a version 2 box to a version 6. but it would be far off compared to the DMR box that Blue wants to bring out first.

[SteevoLS]

Consider at least me incredibly interested. Are the Japanese systems one-off custom builds?

[Horsem4n]

yeah, they are all built buy normal players.

[SteevoLS]

 

Best of luck with your project, and I'll definitely be watching this thread.

[Horsem4n]

its not that bad, it makes finding info easier since companies will not tell you info like that, but fellow airsoft players would.

 

interestingly enough, i haven't contacted that youtube user i posted a link to. he even has a blog describing the builds. but im not sure if he'll understand english.

[mcnuggets]

Here's the thread Horseman mentioned over at CA.net:

 

http://classicairsoft.org/forum/showthread.php?11082-Hybrid-need-help&highlight=solenoid

 

If you don't mind I'm displaying the diagram you mentioned as well:

 

 

IMHO there may be a few problems with this design. For one the solenoid valve may not quick enough to open and close in the short time it takes a BB to travel from breech to the end of the barrel. There may be trigger lag at the beginning of the cycle and wasted air near the end.

 

I like the spool valve paintball gun action:

 

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/ion_twiek.gif

 

It can be fit into a single tube like the top of the gearbox, it meters out a specific amount of air so it's more consistent, and only one solenoid is needed. (Although I don't know how an open-bolt like design would interact with a hop-up.)

 

PS:

 

Here's a good site with different solenoid valves:

 

http://www.airsoldier.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AOS&Category_Code=SOLENOIDS

 

Most of them are intended for paintball but there's a few smaller ones that might be apt for airsoft usage.

[Horsem4n]

your concerns for that design is why i changed it.

 

my loading nozzle is based off of this design:

http://gbcannon.com/pics/GBSemi/gbsemi.gif

 

if the user has a hop up bucking that properly keeps your gun from double feeding, a open bolt style firing system should work fine.

 

i'm not sure how fast a solenoid valve would open with whatever battery, but these things work fine for the japanese, and that first design is pretty much the same thing that was in the gun sold on yahoo japan, the one linked to on the OP of that thread, the difference being the loading nozzle.

[Mr. Blue]

This sounds a lot like the system used in the Asahi WA2000. Any resemblance? If so, you may very well be on the brink of something beautiful, as the Asahi is one of the most accurate, consistent sniper rifles you can find (if you're lucky).

 

Very close. the design has elements and some operating from the WA2000. I was able to sit and watch one being upgraded and outfit with a hop up. while she was in pieces I took as many notes as I could and fired off as many questions as I could about the system. I didn't get to look at the electronics though, since It was epoxy coated ( something I will be implementing as well, to keep the system clear of possible obstructions/knocking)

 

 

 

Still implies that i am basing my system off his his design. I am not. See Horsem4n's post

 

I'm glad you aren't going for a gears and gas Rube Goldberg-like contraption like what monster built. I thought his gearbox incorporated the worst of both worlds.

 

How will this gun work? What sort of action are you using?

 

It is a WA2000 derivative using 2 chambers ( one for firing and one for control)

 

 

its just a solenoid driven gas valve. unlike a mechanically driven valve, like most all other airsoft gas guns, an electronic current trips the valve, causing it to open. as a result the gas starts to flow until the flow of electricity is closed off.

Exactly, although my design uses gas to propel the BB and trip the system.

 

Whats the electric source and where would it be located?

 

The electronics in the system will be designed to use standard 9v batteries available anywhere. Yes, You can use your 9.6v as well. The reason I chose to use 9v's was common availability, smaller profile and all and all easier to get in a dire situation.

 

your concerns for that design is why i changed it.

 

my loading nozzle is based off of this design:

http://gbcannon.com/...Semi/gbsemi.gif

 

if the user has a hop up bucking that properly keeps your gun from double feeding, a open bolt style firing system should work fine.

 

i'm not sure how fast a solenoid valve would open with whatever battery, but these things work fine for the japanese, and that first design is pretty much the same thing that was in the gun sold on yahoo japan, the one linked to on the OP of that thread, the difference being the loading nozzle.

 

My system does not use a blow forward spool during to load/fire, but a spool stem is used in the system.

[mcnuggets]

If you can pull it off Mr. Blue I would definitely be interested in your product. Good luck and please keep us updated.

[inkjet]

Wow, this is totally similar to the design I've been looking at trying to make. I tried to contact that youtube user a while back, but I had a lot of difficulty interpreting his not so great English.

 

I think using a tubular solenoid to work the nozzle is a very simple and effective design, it should definitely be fast enough.

 

Your problem of the solenoid valve not opening/closing fast enough shouldn't be a huge problem if you use one of the solenoid valves that are meant for paintball guns, as those operate easily at 15 cycles per second (a standard ROF for tournament legal guns). To achieve an even more efficient operation, I thought this valve could be attached to a QEV. This should help the operation because the solenoid valves for paintball guns quite often have a very small orifice for the air to flow through (not much air is needed to control the paintball guns), and using the QEV as the primary valve gives the benefits of a fast opening and better flow. You can find info on QEVs at Spudfiles.com, they're commonly used as the main valves on much larger pneumatic cannons.

 

And I know this is really a not very crucial part of this box, but how were you planning on doing the selector switch? Just a rotary potentiometer that is connected to the selector switch (certain ranges of resistance giving certain firing modes)

 

Best of luck on this project, have been wanting to see something like this for years